NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon users: Why?

[paulitician]

It's pretty clear the only winners so far in this 'War on Terror' are Big Brother and the Terrorists. The American People are clearly the losers.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

What's the big deal? Both parties are doing the same thing.

It's OK to lose your rights as long as you FEEL safer....

wait, if it only makes you feel safer and you give up your rights then what is left to protect you when you haven't done anything wrong?

Those who would give up their rights and freedoms for temporary safety deserve neither safety nor their rights and freedoms.

^

No.

In a mature view (thus, one you clearly cannot hope to comprehend), there IS such a thing as a society authorizing limited incursions into our liberties or even our privacy interests in order to seek greater protection from a known and real threat.

As I noted earlier (citing a story linked at Drudge), there is good reason to believe that the program DID help NY City avoid another terrorist attack (the subway one).

The program appears to have merit. The NEED for strict scrutiny is still always crucial.

 

[flacaltenn]

What's the big deal? Both parties are doing the same thing.

It's OK to lose your rights as long as you FEEL safer....

wait, if it only makes you feel safer and you give up your rights then what is left to protect you when you haven't done anything wrong?

Those who would give up their rights and freedoms for temporary safety deserve neither safety nor their rights and freedoms.

^

No.

In a mature view (thus, one you clearly cannot hope to comprehend), there IS such a thing as a society authorizing limited incursions into our liberties or even our privacy interests in order to seek greater protection from a known and real threat.

As I noted earlier (citing a story linked at Drudge), there is good reason to believe that the program DID help NY City avoid another terrorist attack (the subway one).

The program appears to have merit. The NEED for strict scrutiny is still always crucial.

The program has NO MERIT as the law is actually written.. NSA was expressly forbidden from obtaining blanket data requests on US citizens, US legal residents, and OTHER RESIDING in the US.. In other words, the 9-11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to dial their handlers outside.. So terrorists HERE are perfectly safe under the legal rules unless they are morons.

The only way to discover patterns in associations and movements is to have data on the THREATS and data on the INNOCENTS.. You need to know the range of "normal" in the patterns. So you NEED the ENTIRE SCOPE of experience.. So you need to TRAIN on all of it.

Thus the illegal morphing of scope of the phone program.

It could be defeated and turned against us very easily by the terrorists. See my thread on "The People Need a Spy Agency"..

Your assertion that the phone tracking program was used to stop a NY City Subway plot is in major dispute.. It was EMAIL and PRISM data but even that is disputed by British Intelligience.. Since it was THEIR Capture of 18 people a few years back that LEARNED the email address of the foreign contact. Brits took POSSESSION of that email address and camped out on it for a long time. And it was THEY who gave the US the info on the plot..

If you want to believe the very folks who are lying to your about "following the law" --- be my guest..

 

[IlarMeilyr]

What's the big deal? Both parties are doing the same thing.

It's OK to lose your rights as long as you FEEL safer....

wait, if it only makes you feel safer and you give up your rights then what is left to protect you when you haven't done anything wrong?

Those who would give up their rights and freedoms for temporary safety deserve neither safety nor their rights and freedoms.

^

No.

In a mature view (thus, one you clearly cannot hope to comprehend), there IS such a thing as a society authorizing limited incursions into our liberties or even our privacy interests in order to seek greater protection from a known and real threat.

As I noted earlier (citing a story linked at Drudge), there is good reason to believe that the program DID help NY City avoid another terrorist attack (the subway one).

The program appears to have merit. The NEED for strict scrutiny is still always crucial.

The program has NO MERIT as the law is actually written.. NSA was expressly forbidden from obtaining blanket data requests on US citizens, US legal residents, and OTHER RESIDING in the US.. In other words, the 9-11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to dial their handlers outside.. So terrorists HERE are perfectly safe under the legal rules unless they are morons.

The only way to discover patterns in associations and movements is to have data on the THREATS and data on the INNOCENTS.. You need to know the range of "normal" in the patterns. So you NEED the ENTIRE SCOPE of experience.. So you need to TRAIN on all of it.

Thus the illegal morphing of scope of the phone program.

It could be defeated and turned against us very easily by the terrorists. See my thread on "The People Need a Spy Agency"..

Your assertion that the phone tracking program was used to stop a NY City Subway plot is in major dispute.. It was EMAIL and PRISM data but even that is disputed by British Intelligience.. Since it was THEIR Capture of 18 people a few years back that LEARNED the email address of the foreign contact. Brits took POSSESSION of that email address and camped out on it for a long time. And it was THEY who gave the US the info on the plot..

If you want to believe the very folks who are lying to your about "following the law" --- be my guest..

You contradict yourself.

The law has merit if, as written, it does not permit what has occurred.

What lacks merit is the fidelity of those charged with implementing the law to comply with the law. A law is not "bad" just because it may be violated.

What lacks merit is the willingness of those who are supposed to be providing "oversight" to do so.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The NSA is targeting numbers dialed from the U.S. to known or suspected terrorists overseas. Who are you calling that makes you so paranoid?

The Tea Party.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Really? You call 9-1-1 and nobody responds? The roadways around your home are deteriorating? Your Social Security check not showing up?

Never had a civics class, huh?

911 = local government, i.e. city or county.


Roads around my home ARE deteriorating - I'm in the Peoples Republic of California - every dime goes to public employee unions. But again you display your ignorance of how government works. Streets and roads are maintained by cities and counties. Highways are maintained by the states. Interstate highways are FUNDED by the federal government, but still maintained by the states. In the Peoples Republic, federal highway funds are used to pay pensions for the GLORIOUS PEOPLES WORKERS of CalTrans.


You voted for Obama a dozen times, dinja?

 

[DiamondDave]

Funny too how they are more than willing to track normal citizens who have no sign of doing criminal activity.. but we know that many illegals have cell phones and they are not tracked in order to bring them to justice???

Just shows where the priorities are

 

[Ravi]

Funny too how they are more than willing to track normal citizens who have no sign of doing criminal activity.. but we know that many illegals have cell phones and they are not tracked in order to bring them to justice???

Just shows where the priorities are

Well, there's the rub. If the NSA is doing what you claim then we'd be deporting illegals faster than the Republicans can come up with a new fauxrage.

 

[Circe]

Er, if they have the cell phone number, they don't have to wait another year to get the name, like it goes with the number!

It has seemed to me from the first minutes this scandal broke that they have collected all our phone conversations, too, every word: because consider -----

It's all digital.

We're on Comcast, which is totally digitalized and phone service comes through the Comcast router, along with our computer service and cable service; and much or all Verizon and all of the phone companies are also digitalized. So why wouldn't they have all the digitalized voices of you and me? Along with the names, addresses, phone numbers, and times and places of each call. It would all come together, as a package, per call. They can put it all through advanced algorithms, filtering for words they are interested in, and winnow messages down to those humans actually look at and find out who is saying it.

I expect people will shortly figure this out more generally.

 

[Ravi]

Er, if they have the cell phone number, they don't have to wait another year to get the name, like it goes with the number!

It has seemed to me from the first minutes this scandal broke that they have collected all our phone conversations, too, every word: because consider -----

It's all digital.

We're on Comcast, which is totally digitalized and phone service comes through the Comcast router, along with our computer service and cable service; and much or all Verizon and all of the phone companies are also digitalized. So why wouldn't they have all the digitalized voices of you and me? Along with the names, addresses, phone numbers, and times and places of each call. It would all come together, as a package, per call. They can put it all through advanced algorithms, filtering for words they are interested in, and winnow messages down to those humans actually look at and find out who is saying it.

I expect people will shortly figure this out more generally.

Prolly because what you've described would be illegal. But wait, isn't that what George W. Bush did and he got away with it. Imagine that.

 

[flacaltenn]

^

No.

In a mature view (thus, one you clearly cannot hope to comprehend), there IS such a thing as a society authorizing limited incursions into our liberties or even our privacy interests in order to seek greater protection from a known and real threat.

As I noted earlier (citing a story linked at Drudge), there is good reason to believe that the program DID help NY City avoid another terrorist attack (the subway one).

The program appears to have merit. The NEED for strict scrutiny is still always crucial.

The program has NO MERIT as the law is actually written.. NSA was expressly forbidden from obtaining blanket data requests on US citizens, US legal residents, and OTHER RESIDING in the US.. In other words, the 9-11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to dial their handlers outside.. So terrorists HERE are perfectly safe under the legal rules unless they are morons.

The only way to discover patterns in associations and movements is to have data on the THREATS and data on the INNOCENTS.. You need to know the range of "normal" in the patterns. So you NEED the ENTIRE SCOPE of experience.. So you need to TRAIN on all of it.

Thus the illegal morphing of scope of the phone program.

It could be defeated and turned against us very easily by the terrorists. See my thread on "The People Need a Spy Agency"..

Your assertion that the phone tracking program was used to stop a NY City Subway plot is in major dispute.. It was EMAIL and PRISM data but even that is disputed by British Intelligience.. Since it was THEIR Capture of 18 people a few years back that LEARNED the email address of the foreign contact. Brits took POSSESSION of that email address and camped out on it for a long time. And it was THEY who gave the US the info on the plot..

If you want to believe the very folks who are lying to your about "following the law" --- be my guest..

You contradict yourself.

The law has merit if, as written, it does not permit what has occurred.

What lacks merit is the fidelity of those charged with implementing the law to comply with the law. A law is not "bad" just because it may be violated.

What lacks merit is the willingness of those who are supposed to be providing "oversight" to do so.

Did not say the LAW has no merit as written. I ably disputed your argument that the PROGRAM has merit.. You changed the topic and forged my words..

I work in these related areas and have some familiarity with America's Intelligience apparatus.. The PROGRAM NEEDS access to ALL of the data to learn patterns. And they got access to ALL the data in violation of the law as written.

 

[paulitician]

The New World Order is fun huh?

 

[Ravi]

it does not permit what has occurred.

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

 

[DiamondDave]

Funny too how they are more than willing to track normal citizens who have no sign of doing criminal activity.. but we know that many illegals have cell phones and they are not tracked in order to bring them to justice???

Just shows where the priorities are

Well, there's the rub. If the NSA is doing what you claim then we'd be deporting illegals faster than the Republicans can come up with a new fauxrage.

No.. that is a false assumption that it WOULD be happening

 

[flacaltenn]

it does not permit what has occurred.

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

I would hope you'd know that given your expressed opinions that I've read..

In the Biz records part of the Patriotic Act, there is sanctuary given for blanket requests of data from "US Citizens, US legal residents and OTHERS residing in the borders of the US".

MEANING -- the data HAD to have a foreign connection. Literally, the 9/11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to call out of the country. Terrorists KNEW previous to 9/11 that all trans-ocean traffic could be monitored WITHOUT all these fancy new toys.

CLEARLY -- the scope of BOTH programs has exceeded this authorization. Not to mention that since the 70s, the NSA was expressly FORBIDDEN to engage in any domestic data collection or processing. There are very good reasons for not allowing this group that leeway. Even USED to say that on their homepage. YOU go there now to verify. OK???

But I've known for years that they MUST be having access to ALL of the data, because to TRAIN a data-mining system like they claim to have to find terrorists ALREADY IN THE US, they must train on INNOCENT data as well as SUSPICIOUS data. That's how these systems work. And NO -- I did not just leak classified info.. MILLIONS of scientists and engineers in the country understand the power and construction of intelligience gathering programs.

 

[paulitician]

it does not permit what has occurred.

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

Still defending the indefensible ay? Boy, you Dear Leader-Worshippers sound more pathetic by the day. How do you people sleep at night?

 

[Ravi]

it does not permit what has occurred.

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

I would hope you'd know that given your expressed opinions that I've read..

In the Biz records part of the Patriotic Act, there is sanctuary given for blanket requests of data from "US Citizens, US legal residents and OTHERS residing in the borders of the US".

MEANING -- the data HAD to have a foreign connection. Literally, the 9/11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to call out of the country. Terrorists KNEW previous to 9/11 that all trans-ocean traffic could be monitored WITHOUT all these fancy new toys.

CLEARLY -- the scope of BOTH programs has exceeded this authorization. Not to mention that since the 70s, the NSA was expressly FORBIDDEN to engage in any domestic data collection or processing. There are very good reasons for not allowing this group that leeway. Even USED to say that on their homepage. YOU go there now to verify. OK???

But I've known for years that they MUST be having access to ALL of the data, because to TRAIN a data-mining system like they claim to have to find terrorists ALREADY IN THE US, they must train on INNOCENT data as well as SUSPICIOUS data. That's how these systems work. And NO -- I did not just leak classified info.. MILLIONS of scientists and engineers in the country understand the power and construction of intelligience gathering programs.

I believe you are misrepresenting what we know of as the facts. There is no evidence that anyone other than foreigners are being data-mined, aside from the phone records which are impersonal and used to search for patterns.

Now, I don't approve of the latter but I certainly don't see it as illegal. If you have some concrete evidence that shows that it is feel free to post it.

 

[flacaltenn]

it does not permit what has occurred.

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

Still defending the indefensible ay? Boy, you Dear Leader-Worshippers sound more pathetic by the day. How do you people sleep at night?

I think they are sleeping with the NEO-Cons... Much like James Carville and Mary Matalin.. Hired assassins for the 2 opposing parties during the day -- lovers and baby-makers at night.

 

[paulitician]

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

Still defending the indefensible ay? Boy, you Dear Leader-Worshippers sound more pathetic by the day. How do you people sleep at night?

I think they are sleeping with the NEO-Cons... Much like James Carville and Mary Matalin.. Hired assassins for the 2 opposing parties during the day -- lovers and baby-makers at night.

Yeah, i've been saying for years that there's very little difference between a Socialist/Progressive and a Neocon. They're both All-In on the Big Government Nanny/Police State thing.

 

[flacaltenn]

What has occurred, exactly, that the law does not permit?

I would hope you'd know that given your expressed opinions that I've read..

In the Biz records part of the Patriotic Act, there is sanctuary given for blanket requests of data from "US Citizens, US legal residents and OTHERS residing in the borders of the US".

MEANING -- the data HAD to have a foreign connection. Literally, the 9/11 hijackers would have been protected unless they were stupid enough to call out of the country. Terrorists KNEW previous to 9/11 that all trans-ocean traffic could be monitored WITHOUT all these fancy new toys.

CLEARLY -- the scope of BOTH programs has exceeded this authorization. Not to mention that since the 70s, the NSA was expressly FORBIDDEN to engage in any domestic data collection or processing. There are very good reasons for not allowing this group that leeway. Even USED to say that on their homepage. YOU go there now to verify. OK???

But I've known for years that they MUST be having access to ALL of the data, because to TRAIN a data-mining system like they claim to have to find terrorists ALREADY IN THE US, they must train on INNOCENT data as well as SUSPICIOUS data. That's how these systems work. And NO -- I did not just leak classified info.. MILLIONS of scientists and engineers in the country understand the power and construction of intelligience gathering programs.

I believe you are misrepresenting what we know of as the facts. There is no evidence that anyone other than foreigners are being data-mined, aside from the phone records which are impersonal and used to search for patterns.

Now, I don't approve of the latter but I certainly don't see it as illegal. If you have some concrete evidence that shows that it is feel free to post it.

I read your footer about being "close-minded".. The phone records are enough.. lemme quote from a thread I posted over the weekend here.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/7339759-post1.html

What is phone metadata? It's the record of phone contacts, length of call, time and date, [[I left out tower locations -- FlaCalTenn edit today]]. Essentially the same info that generates the company's billing record. We're supposed to be relieved that the CONTENT of that call is not monitored... But what could you do with metadata?

1) Your client list
2) Your accountant, doctors, brokers
3) A pretty clear picture of who you donate to
4) A good guess as to whether you are having an affair
5) Your bank and credit holders
6) Where you've been
7) How long you were there

.....
8) Establish your connection to known gang members or former criminals even if the guy just mows your lawn.

In fact -- once all this data is mined and refined -- there will be a 15 foot display board in the control room that can spot potential gangs in every major city. Wont NEED to subpeona journalists, They will already know who they call and who their sources unless they meet in a parking garage..

And WE --- will be meeting in an alleyway instead of on USMB...

9) become a target of an investigation if a terrorist related suspect dials a wrong number and it's yours..

I'm telling you that it's common science and engineering to do "data-mining" and that it's impossible to determine a suspicious pattern without training on ALL of the data you expect to see.

We can do the abuses of the PRISM email system some other time. But the calculus of Bush and Congress and Obama and Rove and Feinstein and ALL OF THE PEOPLE directing these abuses are -- that you and the other American citizens are too stupid to LEARN what can be determined from this data. So that your Dear Leader can just chuckle and tell you -- "Hey --- lighten up.. It's not like we're listening to your calls".

So unless you want to invest 20 years in Machine Intelligience and Engineering with a stint in the Intel biz [[hint, hint]]--- you'd better learn some of this from others before you determine that "it's not a problem"..