Now is not the time to renegotiate or cancel NAFTA - Bush

[Toro]

like I said, dude...


my links are only from the fucking department of labor.


enjoy those videos of your argument having it's ass handed to it. care of mr greenspan.

And you have no idea what the BLS data means. You are using declining payrolls over the last three months to beat up on NAFTA and free trade. The rising unemployment rate over the past year has nothing to do with free trade. It has to do with the collapsing housing bubble and the credit crunch. But to a dogmatic ideologue with little understanding of economics, you think it somehow supports what you are saying.

Surely, if you had some knowledge about what you are commenting, you would not have posted those videos (or at least the first video since I'll have to get to the second later) and say that my ass was handed to me by Alan Greenspan. Greenspan is supporting my argument. He is saying that America should not resort to protectionism, which is what I've been arguing. He says that around the 6th or 7th minute of the video. He's saying that the trade deficit should be closed by increasing America's rate of savings, which I agree with.

I'll watch the second later. But thanks for posting a video with Alan Greenspan supporting what I've been saying. I appreciate that.

 

[Shogun]

And you have no idea what the BLS data means. You are using declining payrolls over the last three months to beat up on NAFTA and free trade. The rising unemployment rate over the past year has nothing to do with free trade. It has to do with the collapsing housing bubble and the credit crunch. But to a dogmatic ideologue with little understanding of economics, you think it somehow supports what you are saying.

Surely, if you had some knowledge about what you are commenting, you would not have posted those videos (or at least the first video since I'll have to get to the second later) and say that my ass was handed to me by Alan Greenspan. Greenspan is supporting my argument. He is saying that America should not resort to protectionism, which is what I've been arguing. He says that around the 6th or 7th minute of the video. He's saying that the trade deficit should be closed by increasing America's rate of savings, which I agree with.

I'll watch the second later. But thanks for posting a video with Alan Greenspan supporting what I've been saying. I appreciate that.

lemme just highlight some of the ESPECIALLY stupid points you just tried to make




And you have no idea what the BLS data means. You are using declining payrolls over the last three months to beat up on NAFTA and free trade. The rising unemployment rate over the past year has nothing to do with free trade. It has to do with the collapsing housing bubble and the credit crunch. But to a dogmatic ideologue with little understanding of economics, you think it somehow supports what you are saying.


NOTHING to do with free trade, eh? It seems that the world around you, from toyota's take over of GM to the FACT of diminished manufacturing employment, says otherwise. After all, it's the fuckihg HOUSING BUBBLE that you seem to think causes UNEMPLOYMENT. That's probably NOT totally ass backwards. nope. YOU say so! Outsourced jobs doesn't lead to unemployment which doesn't lead to a housing bubble and credit crunch because no one has the income to deal with variable interest rates which MUST NOT be caused by opening up the floodgate of cheap labor via "free trade".. nope. YOU say so. YOUR interpretation of BLS stats, despite the data they present, is SO UNIVERSAL that we just don't have video evidence of greenspan having his ASS handed to him when making the same point you are.

nope. That, much like the rather obvious reprocussions of Nafta and blank check free trade pilicies, MUST be a figment of my, and Senator REIGLE's imagination. I mean, payroll CANT reflect fucking unemplolyment! DUH! It's not like PAYROLL is a measure of the COST of hiring motherfuckers or something. Hell, reduced PAYROLL and increased UNEMPLOYMENT CANT be indicate! nope, it's GOTTA be a false correlation.. Imean, Toro here believes in fucking free trade so it MUST be something else.



dogmatic ideologue indeed. Spare me your fucking labels when you take your failing comprehension back to, as SENATOR RIEGLE put it, your fraternity of old economics.


Surely, if you had some knowledge about what you are commenting, you would not have posted those videos (or at least the first video since I'll have to get to the second later) and say that my ass was handed to me by Alan Greenspan. Greenspan is supporting my argument. He is saying that America should not resort to protectionism, which is what I've been arguing. He says that around the 6th or 7th minute of the video. He's saying that the trade deficit should be closed by increasing America's rate of savings, which I agree with.


No shit, sherlock. Of COURSE alan is supporting your arguement. Maybe you didn't get the memo but Alan Greenspan isn't universally touted as the end all in economics. In fact, It conveys quite a bit about your ability to listen since you seem to think I was using him, and not the SENATOR thrashing your stupid fucking arguement, to make my point.

SHOULD be, eh? You wanna figure out WHEN that video was taken from Cspan so I can clue you in on why I lead into it with the news of Toyota taking over GM in world sales?

Indeed, tell me once more that Im the one not understanding what im talking about, dude. It's probably not making me laugh at you.



I'll watch the second later. But thanks for posting a video with Alan Greenspan supporting what I've been saying. I appreciate that.


indeed, enjoy watching a senator from a state that knows a thing or two about the reduction of the manufacturing sector curbstomp the SHIT out of Alan's, and your, position. And, given the FACT that the video specifically speaks to TOYOTA vs GM and the success of THEIR protectionist policies versus the FAILURE of ours you should enjoy watching him sit there like a feeble old man with more rhetorical bullshit to offer than facts about our current economic situation.



I may very well have just Pwned you right there.

 

[Ravi]

Isn't NAFTA working out pretty well with Canada?

 

[TopGunna]

Well I have found something I have to disagree with you on. Trade CREATES more jobs than it costs. It is a GOOD thing to move obsolete, 19th century industries like Textiles overseas....because we NEED THOSE WORKERS to man industries for the 21st century that trade helps create by leaving more money in consumer's pockets which they spend on other stuff creating MORE jobs. In a FREE market industries, and the jobs that go with them, decline for a REASON. But there are NEW and MORE VIBRANT businesses and industries that take their place.

What usually goes with those old, obsolete industries are old and obsolete employment models, namely unions, which are a MAJOR reason why many of those old industries begin to fail anyway. There's a reason the Toyota and BMW plants in the south are vibrant and profitable and the old guard big three factories in Michigan aren't....

EXACTLY! The fact that U.S. manufacturing output is INCREASING despite employing fewer workers tells me that the industry has become increasingly efficient. Even in the absence of NAFTA, these technological advances would have taken place, and that's the key forcing here. Improved technology has reduced the demand for manufacturing jobs, since manufacturers can achieve greater output through less labor-intensive (more capital-intensive) production means.

NAFTA or not, manufacturing jobs are being rendered obsolete by improved technology. It's not the first time that certain occupations have become less valuable to society. How many blacksmiths are there in the US compared to 100 years ago? How many Americans are laying railroad track for a living? How many neighborhoods still have a Milkman who delivers door-to-door every week?

Zoomie's got it.

 

[Toro]

Isn't NAFTA working out pretty well with Canada?

Yes, and its working out with Mexico pretty well too.

 

[Shogun]

um, how many blacksmiths were OUTSOURCED to fucking mexico again? The NEED for these labor roles are still relevant. If they weren't, you would not be buying the products - unlike the horseshoe that you seem to think is equivilent to a fucking stereo.. It's the PAY SCALE, and employment thereof, it takes to support the American standard of living tat you shrug off as if it means nothing to the rest of American. If the cost of labor in mexico is easier on the bottom line than the labor cost of the exact same product in the US then there IS employment repercussions that you don't want to admit.


Again, review greenspan having his ASS handed to him by a senator that predicted the dominance of japanese autos due to their PROTECTIONIST policy.


then have yourself a laugh at the article I posted directly prior. It's the one whose headline says that Toyota has dominated GM in the global market.

 

[Shogun]

Yes, and its working out with Mexico pretty well too.

canada and mexico.. two nations that have suckled from the American tit for quite some time. Indeed, clearly what works out for them must also be as beneficial to the US.

 

[Toro]

NOTHING to do with free trade, eh? It seems that the world around you, from toyota's take over of GM to the FACT of diminished manufacturing employment, says otherwise. After all, it's the fuckihg HOUSING BUBBLE that you seem to think causes UNEMPLOYMENT. That's probably NOT totally ass backwards. nope. YOU say so! Outsourced jobs doesn't lead to unemployment which doesn't lead to a housing bubble and credit crunch because no one has the income to deal with variable interest rates which MUST NOT be caused by opening up the floodgate of cheap labor via "free trade".. nope. YOU say so. YOUR interpretation of BLS stats, despite the data they present, is SO UNIVERSAL that we just don't have video evidence of greenspan having his ASS handed to him when making the same point you are.

You show no ability to understand the context of the data you are quoting. The fact that you are blaming this recession on NAFTA and free trade merely demonstrates your own biases.

It ain't just me that's saying its the collapse of the housing bubble causing the cession. People paying attention could see this coming a mile away.

Article dated 2005, playing out pretty much as expected.

Much of the nation has had a lovely real estate boom for the past five years, but the house party is almost over and the cleanup won't be pretty.

That's the word from economists and investors who have watched housing prices march ever higher.

"The collapse of the housing bubble will throw the economy into a recession, and quite likely a severe recession," warned a July report by the Center for Economic and Policy Research.

In recent weeks, many major investment firms have concurred. Said a Lehman Brothers report, "(A) turn in the housing market is central to our economic forecast. "

"The demographic story behind the housing market boom, as we always thought, was a giant hoax," wrote Merrill Lynch & Co.'s North American Economist, David Rosenberg, in a recent report.

If housing prices decline sharply, the effects could be broad. Lehman estimates one-third of the past year's U.S. economic growth was a consequence of the housing boom. Housing construction is equal to 5 percent of the national economy.

A downturn in housing could mean more than 1.3 million lost jobs, Goldman Sachs Group Inc. predicts, bumping up the national unemployment rate by 1 percent and the unemployment rate in house-mad California by 2 percent. Those numbers don't include likely job cuts in housing-dependent businesses, such as banking, furniture and building materials.

The Center for Economic and Policy Research predicts worse, saying a bubble burst would mean the loss of 5 million to 6.3 million jobs.

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/11/13/business/news/20_51_4611_12_05.txt

nope. That, much like the rather obvious reprocussions of Nafta and blank check free trade pilicies, MUST be a figment of my, and Senator REIGLE's imagination. I mean, payroll CANT reflect fucking unemplolyment! DUH! It's not like PAYROLL is a measure of the COST of hiring motherfuckers or something. Hell, reduced PAYROLL and increased UNEMPLOYMENT CANT be indicate! nope, it's GOTTA be a false correlation.. Imean, Toro here believes in fucking free trade so it MUST be something else.

Yes, it is a figment of your imagination, which appears to be warped by your anger and bitterness, given the tone of your responses in this thread.

What has happened over the past few decades has not been caused by free trade. It has been caused by the acceleration of technology, and the distribution of gains arising from technology. I posted a link above, which you had trouble following. I'll post other links referencing several studies showing this is a global trend.

dogmatic ideologue indeed. Spare me your fucking labels when you take your failing comprehension back to, as SENATOR RIEGLE put it, your fraternity of old economics.

No shit, sherlock. Of COURSE alan is supporting your arguement. Maybe you didn't get the memo but Alan Greenspan isn't universally touted as the end all in economics. In fact, It conveys quite a bit about your ability to listen since you seem to think I was using him, and not the SENATOR thrashing your stupid fucking arguement, to make my point.

"Old economics" lol

Yeah, right. Mercantilism and autarky worked so well in the past. Its protectionism that is the "old economics." But then again, I don't expect you to understand economic history, or even basic economics it seems.

Oh, and a SENATOR said so! Well, golly gee, SENATORS are never wrong and self-interested, are they?

I guess when the senators from Texas say global warming is a myth, then we should believe them because they are, after all, senators, and senators are never wrong! lol

Well done. Great argument.

SHOULD be, eh? You wanna figure out WHEN that video was taken from Cspan so I can clue you in on why I lead into it with the news of Toyota taking over GM in world sales?

indeed, enjoy watching a senator from a state that knows a thing or two about the reduction of the manufacturing sector curbstomp the SHIT out of Alan's, and your, position. And, given the FACT that the video specifically speaks to TOYOTA vs GM and the success of THEIR protectionist policies versus the FAILURE of ours you should enjoy watching him sit there like a feeble old man with more rhetorical bullshit to offer than facts about our current economic situation.

That video looks like it was in the early 1990s.

Funny thing that, with the omniscient senator from Michigan was expounding the wonders of Japaneses protectionism, the country was about to enter economic stagnation that, for 15+ years, they have yet to leave.

Well done, Shogun.

I may very well have just Pwned you right there.

You're not educated enough to know if you've pwned anyone. I'd suggest that you read a basic beginners text book in economics. Here's one.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Macroeconomics-N-Gregory-Mankiw/dp/0716752379[/ame]

Let's review

- Over the past 10 years, there have been over 11 million jobs created that pay more than the 3 million jobs lost in manufacturing.

- According to empirical evidence, technology, not trade, is what is causing dislocations in the American economy. Shogun's response is to swear and stamp his feet.

- Shogun keeps arguing that what really matters is employment in manufacturing, even though manufacturing output has risen, and that manufacturing jobs account for only 10% of all jobs

- Senators know everything, so we should believe them because they have no self-interest and would never skew an argument.

 

[manifold]

I initially assumed it was a typo and was intended as owned. But seeing it used several times makes me wonder.

 

[jillian]

I initially assumed it was a typo and was intended as owned. But seeing it used several times makes me wonder.

The slang term Pwn (see pronunciation note below), used primarily in the Internet gaming culture, means to soundly defeat an opponent

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:PWNED&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Pwn (/poʊn/, /puːn/, /pəʔˈoʊn/, /pɔːn/, /piˈoʊn/, /pwəʔˈn̩/) is a leetspeak slang term, derived from the word "own",[1][2][3] that implies domination or humiliation of a rival, used primarily in the Internet gaming culture to taunt an opponent who has just been soundly defeated. Past tense is sometimes spelled pwnt (pronounced with a t sound), pwned, pwnd, pwn3d, or powned (with the standard d sound). Examples include "pwnage" or "you just got pwned". It can also be used, especially by non-gamers, in the context of getting "pwned" by The Man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWNED

 

[manifold]

LOL

thanks

 

[Ravi]

I initially assumed it was a typo and was intended as owned. But seeing it used several times makes me wonder.

LOL! I thought everyone knew that one.

 

[Shogun]

HAHAHA!

Holy shit, Toro, I didn't figure you'd be so pathetic as to assume that quoting the NORTH COUNTY TIMES is more indicative of our economic situation than a fucking SENATOR WHO PREDICTED toyota's takeover of the world market from GM over TEN fucking years ago.





yea, buddy.. you REALLY got me there! damn, I KNEW I shoulda checked with the bellweather that is, uh, a newspaper from some backwoods town on the east coast. DAMN, why was I listening to a senator from a state that has tangible experience in losing outsourced employment when clearly, CLEARLY I should have been screening small town newspapers.

jesus fucking christ, dude. Are you going to continue pointing a finger at those you don't think are educated enough just because your greenspan fraternity just doesn't seem to producing results that match the bullshit rhetoric?

I know, let's pretend that a solid 98% of all the shit within your reaching distance isn't made outside the US. LETS pretend that you didn't all of a sudden start talking about Production OUTPUT when I mentioned EMPLOYMENT. While we are at it, let's go ahead and pretend that that SENATOR that you quickly disregard ONLY called it spot on ten fucking years ago when pointing out the strength of japans protectionist policies given the FACT of toyota's global market takeover.


yea, i'd call someone else uneducated too, buddy. Especially given the mudhole that was stomped in your hero's ass in the videos above.

 

[Shogun]

Yes, it is a figment of your imagination, which appears to be warped by your anger and bitterness, given the tone of your responses in this thread.

What has happened over the past few decades has not been caused by free trade. It has been caused by the acceleration of technology, and the distribution of gains arising from technology. I posted a link above, which you had trouble following. I'll post other links referencing several studies showing this is a global trend.

oh well, CLEARLY, we can disregard a Senator caling this shit like a marksman ten fucking years ago.. because you, in your fanboi dreamy hunk hero worship, say so.


gotcha.

And, did someone say anything about validating that is happening in the US with "Global" excuses? It's exactly this "normalization" of the cost of labor that is shrinking the American SOL even if you can rationalize an investor class. You know, people who don't care if their TV came from the US or Mexico. And, let me remind you since you seem to have a short term memory issue, we've been seeing the decline of the manufacturing sector for YEARS now. Not just a couple months before people started losing their homes. After all, if people HAD a fucking worthwhile job then it kinda sucks the wind out of your stupid fucking arguement that the housing crisis caused what was ALREADY happening to American employment. Three years ago people were still BUYING adjustable loans, unlike predicting a fucking market crash as you suggest. THEN, we were also dealing with major unemployment issues as the Bush admin hid behind manipulated employment rate stats that do not compare the SOL before and AFTER trading in a stable factory job for a shitty cashier job at the local wal mart.


Now, I hope you feel refreshed and full of vinigar and piss since my fan club decided to pipe in. Hopefully, you can handle this ass whuping better than your super fan hero did when being addressed by a congressional hearing over this exact same shit.


ten fucking years ago.

 

[Shogun]

"Old economics" lol
Yeah, right. Mercantilism and autarky worked so well in the past. Its protectionism that is the "old economics." But then again, I don't expect you to understand economic history, or even basic economics it seems.
Oh, and a SENATOR said so! Well, golly gee, SENATORS are never wrong and self-interested, are they?
I guess when the senators from Texas say global warming is a myth, then we should believe them because they are, after all, senators, and senators are never wrong! lol
Well done. Great argument.


Yea, i'd say a senator who has tangible examples of Americans losing their jobs to Nafta is a bit more substantial than theoretical science. But, given the nature of economics in general, are you sure you really want to bring up SOFT opinion based sciences?

After all, for a senator YOU seem to think was wrong you sure are eating crow after I posted the fruition of Reigle's Toyota prediction, eh?
'

I mean, he was SO WRONG about GM and TOYOTA that just the other day it was reported that TOYOTA now DOMINATES the global auto market! HA!


Yea, you sure are one to give lectures on who knows what, dude.

 

[Shogun]

That video looks like it was in the early 1990s.

Funny thing that, with the omniscient senator from Michigan was expounding the wonders of Japaneses protectionism, the country was about to enter economic stagnation that, for 15+ years, they have yet to leave.

Well done, Shogun.


ohhh yea.. duh.. I mean, when a prediction of the dominance of japanese auto markets all of a sudden become global FACT it's probably best to give more credence to some dipshit on the net with a hardon for trickle down econ and chairman greenspan than the guy who comes into contact with his unemployed constituency... who, also, predicted the state of where we are today better than your silly fucking theoretical wishful thinking has even REMOTELY come close to.


yup.




well done indeed. I hope you didn't pay for your education with money.

 

[Shogun]

You're not educated enough to know if you've pwned anyone. I'd suggest that you read a basic beginners text book in economics. Here's one.

http://www.amazon.com/Macroeconomics.../dp/0716752379&tag=ff0d01-20





WHOOPSY! Look what ole Shogun found...


Controversy

[edit] Benefits of outsourcing

Several controversies arose from CEA's February 2004 Economic Report of the President.[7] In a press conference, Mankiw spoke of the gains from free trade, noting that outsourcing of jobs by U.S. companies is "probably a plus for the economy in the long run."[8][9] While this reflected mainstream economic analysis, it was criticized by many people who drew a link between outsourcing and the still-slow recovery of the U.S. labor market in early 2004. The White House economic forecast contained in the report was criticized for being overly optimistic about job gains--and indeed, job growth turned out to be slower than the Administration forecast.

[edit] Service versus manufacturing

Controversy also arose from a rhetorical question posed by the report (and repeated by Mankiw in a speech about the report):[10] "when a fast-food restaurant sells a hamburger, is it providing a service or combining inputs to manufacture a product?" The intended point was that the distinction between manufacturing and service industry is somewhat arbitrary and therefore a poor basis for policy. Even though the issue was not raised in the report, a news account led to criticism that the Administration was seeking to cover up jobless losses in manufacturing by redefining jobs such as flipping hamburgers as manufacturing.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._Gregory_Mankiw















YEA.. ID be pointing fingers if I were you too, toro!


HAHAHA!


Like I said.. I hope you didn't pay for your education with anything of value.

 

[manifold]

Well, Toro is logged out and no reply for 30 minutes. Therefore, in accordance with USMB rules, I hereby declare Shogun the official victor. Now he can go about picking the pieces of Toro's ass chocolate out of his teeth after the unofficial pwning he's been viciously dealt at the hands of the aforementioned Toro.

 

[Shogun]

it's cool.


i'll wait.



I just figured youd get a kick out of seeing Toro's position punched in the throat by a furious dragon punch of logic and evidence. Notice how I handled his pompous arrogance when it came time to name drop Mankiw. I tellya, nothing is as convincing as some asshole regurgitating what he thinks SHOULD be universal (but isn't, given the greenspan-riegle debate ten years ago and *gasp* a GM vs Toyota headline from yesterday)

 

[manifold]

I just figured youd get a kick out of seeing Toro's position punched in the throat by a furious dragon punch of logic and evidence.

Oh, I've been getting a kick out of watching the debate, that much is true. Usually, such a one-sided drubbing gets boring rather quickly, but for some reason the entertainment value here has yet to wane. hmmm, I wonder why?