North vs South

[Baruch Menachem]

people just don't let go. The Irish still complain about Cromwell.

 

[The Gadfly]

I just noticed that you put this in the race-relations section. Why?

Didn't know where else to put it.

It's not entirely inappropriate, as the race issue was peripherally a part of this in the past (and perhaps still is, in some people's perceptions today. Anyway to answer your question, Violet, we have to go back not to the War Between the States, but to the colonial era. Even in those days, those who settled in New England were a different people from those who settled the southern colonies. Many were on the opposite sides of the English Civil War; the statement that "New England was founded by Puritans; the South by Cavaliers" has some basis in historical fact; the two cultures were different from the start, and there always was some tension between them; enough so that it almost aborted the American Revolution, and made it difficult for the fledgling Republic to agree on a constitution. The term "Yankee" was born in those earlier times, when it generally referred to the people of those colonies from Connecticut north. They were very different cultures, and not just on the issue of chattel slavery as it developed in the nineteenth century. Although the differences eventually boiled over into war in 1861, it is not so much the history of that conflict but that of the decade that followed it, that has been the driving force behind the attitude since. That part deserves some further explanation.

Sherman's March, and the atrocities that were part of it, really only impacted the states of GA and SC, and while there had been other (as we would call them now) war crimes perpetrated by Union forces, these had not been widespread, and many of the worst of them had been against the slave population. The soldiers who had fought on both sides of the conflict predominately respected each other (with a few conspicuous exceptions on both sides). In time, had the South been treated more generously, the nation might have bound up its wounds with considerably less acrimony. There is reason to believe that was Lincoln's intent, but thanks to Booth's bullet, we will never know. What we do know, is, that freed of whatever mitigating influence Lincoln may have had, the Radical Republicans on the winning side decided to treat the vanquished not as brothers but as a conquered people. The resulting "Reconstruction" was the tragic fruit. How much of it can be put down to sincere (if naive) idealism, and how much to vindictiveness, greed and simple corruption, can be argued, but in the end greed and vindictiveness triumphed. The result was not only the humiliation and impoverishment of the defeated South; it resulted in a wave of low-level terror (on BOTH sides)that went on across the South for the better part of ten years, in what is sometimes called the second American civil war. One might have hoped that the victors would have tried to help the former master and the former slave learn to work together as equals; instead, what was done was to disenfranchise the former master, put the former slave (as a puppet, of course)to rule him and humiliate him, for the amusement and profit of northern puppetmasters. If there could have been a policy better calculated to produce racial hatred and resentment, I cannot think what it might be. As a result, any good that might have been accomplished (and there was some), was overshadowed by bloodshed and corruption. By the time it was over the South was shattered, the freedmen were in a worse position than immediately after the war, and the image of the fortune seeking northern "carpetbaggers" who had descended on the South like locusts was forever seared in infamy into the Southern consciousness, where it remains to this day. Nothing could have been better calculated to sow a legacy of hatred among a proud if defeated people, and even today "carpetbagger" (not "Damnyankee) is the nastiest word in the Southern lexicon. To clarify, to me, as a Southerner, a "Damnyankee" is a Northerner who annoys me; a "Carpetbagger" is that, PLUS a thief, a liar, a swindler, a hypocrite, a bigot, a purveyor of dirty politics, an oppressor, an unprincipled oaf, an exploiter, a villain, a vulture and a swine, all rolled into one! If that sounds harsh, that's the Southern perception, and It has caused many a Southerner since to view Northerners in general like an Irishman views the English.

That is bad enough, but it was compounded by the attitudes of the Northerners who came here in droves after WW II. A great many brought their misconceptions and prejudices, along with their politics and an air of superiority with them. things which did not exactly endear them to the natives. Then to compound matters further, during the Civil Rights struggle, a whole lot of Yankees delighted in throwing verbal rocks at the South over segregation, when their own treatment of the Black people in their own backyard left quite a bit to be desired. It was a bit offensive to see people attempting to absolve themselves of their own shortcomings at someone else's expense. I note, for instance that many a proper Bostonian was outraged when Southerners opposed forced busing for the purpose of integration; yet, when busing eventually came to Boston, some of those same Bostonians were on the news, throwing rocks at little Black kids boarding school busses. An acquaintance of mine could not resist sending the following letter to the editor of the Boston Globe, on the occasion:

"Dear Sir,
I just wanted to tell you how much we poor, benighted, ignorant, illiterate, backward, redneck, racist Southerners admire the way you fine, cultured, highly-educated, cultivated, genteel, liberal, sophisticated, and refined citizens of Boston are handling your present racial difficulties."

All of which brings us to the present day, when once again, Outsiders who do not like the political leanings of most Southerners once again attempt to use the cudgel of race to beat the South over the head with, this in a time when quite a few people will admit that the past notwithstanding, there is now arguably considerably less real racism left in the South than in many other places. The tactic is not only getting old and tiresome, it is frankly unfair, and a rank disservice to those Southerners, Black and White alike, who have struggled to put the shadow of Jim Crow behind us. DAMN RIGHT, we feel persecuted, when used in that fashion in a political ploy intended to demean, smear, and degrade us, because one party doesn't like the way we vote!

 

[uscitizen]

Yankees come and visit and then go home, Damn yankees move here!

 

[The Gadfly]

Yankees come and visit and then go home, Damn yankees move here!

Well, sort of. Lately we have a distinct subspecies I call "tame" or "domesticated" Yankees. These usually come down here to get away from the mess they have made up there, and the politics that caused it, as well as the climate.They seem to take readily to our way of life (most of them in fact, enjoy it), and after a period of adaptation, usually fit in well here (once we teach them what seasonings are for, and not to boil everything to death). These are completely harmless, and some of them can get to be almost Southern after a few years (though I have yet to cure any of that dreadful accent, which grates upon a Southern ear like fingernails run across a chalkboard).

 

[The Gadfly]

people just don't let go. The Irish still complain about Cromwell.

You think?

"A curse upon you, Oliver Cromwell,
you who raped our Motherland!
I hope you're rottin' down in Hell,
For the horrors that you sent
On our misfortunate forefathers,
who you robbed of their birthright!
To Hell or Connaught, may you burn in Hell tonight!"

from "Curse you Oliver Cromwell-The Pogues

 

[The Gadfly]

And now for our original subjects, here's a little ditty that expresses, in the words of the time, how my ancestors felt about the Yankee carpetbaggers who tormented, humiliated, and looted them for ten long years of "Reconstruction".

The Carpetbagger's Lament

I've travelled this country all over,
and now to another must go;
Where the darkies are easier swindled ,
And less of my lying do know!

I come from the cold Northern regions,
the land of the ice and the snow.
I came with my carpetbag empty,
but now, 'tis full, as you know!

At home I was ragged and dirty,
and left when the sun had got low.
But I soon made a rise in this country,
when I got in the Freedmens' Bureau!

I told how I shouldered my musket,
and fought for the poor old Negro;
how I hate the seccesh and the rebels,
and taught them to hate 'em also!

I swore them at night, by dark lanterns,
In that League we call Loyal, you know!
And made 'em believe if they left it,
Straight down to the devil they'd go!

I promised that land we would give them,
Of acres quite forty or more;
with a mule fat and ready to tend it!
That caught the fool darky, be sure!

I promised to give them all office,
and make them my equals also;
I made them think I was an angel,
and this earth would be heaven below!

We got every office we wanted,
and we threw the poor darkies a bone!
We robbed and we stole without fearing,
For Grant, he would let us alone!

That "mournful fact" speech of old Greely
struck us the first heavy blow:
Now the N*ggers , confound 'em, want office!
Then where would we carpetbags go?

I see that more trouble is coming,
the mule and the land I can't show!
Like many a swindler before me,
I must pack up my stealings and go!

 

[BluePhantom]

Well I know what discussion you are referring to Violet so let me step back from that a bit and approach this as a historian for a sec.

There was a lot of hypocrisy on both sides. The south viewed slavery mostly as a necessary evil that had to exist to protect the health of their economy. Unpleasant as it is to concede that...it's really the truth. With the loss of slavery the South suffered tremendously from an economic aspect. The North loves to claim moral superiority but let's not get too carried away. The northern industrial complexes sure loved the cheap raw materials the south provided and they sure didn't hesitate to capitalize on it.

Additionally Abraham Lincoln, though I feel he is the best president we have ever had, is credited with ending slavery, it's worth noting that he wasn't willing to go to war over it. That wasn't his idea at all. His idea was to restrict and regulate it to the point that it would die out on itself and the south would evolve economically over time to compensate. Once the south attacked the north he figured "what the hell, might as well stick the point now". This is a critical point because South Carolina left the union arguing that Lincoln's plan was to enslave them economically and other southern states followed. It's an interesting point of history to note that Lincoln had no such objectives that can be supported by any documentation (in fact the documentation shows the exact opposite) but that the south forced his hand. In other words, they forced what they feared.

Why does animosity exist? History and tradition I would say. For the same reason why blacks still bitch about slavery even though no one alive was ever a slave or owned a slave. The tradition of hatred and scapegoating has been passed down and enforced by culture. Indeed, it has become a part of each ones culture to do so.

 

[jwreck]

Yankees stay up north. Damn yankees move down here and irritate me. Big difference.

Is that an invitation for me to come and stay at your place! Oh a road trip would be fun we can take NLT with us and go visit several of our mutual friends. I'm so excited!!!!!

Sure! C'mon down!

 

[Ernie S.]

Yankees come and visit and then go home, Damn yankees move here!

Well, sort of. Lately we have a distinct subspecies I call "tame" or "domesticated" Yankees. These usually come down here to get away from the mess they have made up there, and the politics that caused it, as well as the climate.They seem to take readily to our way of life (most of them in fact, enjoy it), and after a period of adaptation, usually fit in well here (once we teach them what seasonings are for, and not to boil everything to death). These are completely harmless, and some of them can get to be almost Southern after a few years (though I have yet to cure any of that dreadful accent, which grates upon a Southern ear like fingernails run across a chalkboard).

I've learned to appreciate the people and the life style. I attend the races in Talladega and I own a Rebel flag. I've even gotten used to being called Mister Ernie.
I know the difference between "y'all and "all y'all". I know that crawfish, crayafish, crawdads and mud bugs are all the same thing and are good for something other than bass bait.
I'm beginning to be able to communicate in Alabamian but I still need to consult google translate from time to time.
I LOVE it here!

 

[percysunshine]

North vs South?
First let me say I am not trying to pick a fight or ...

Obviously you are trying. You would not have offered the proposition if you were not trying.

 

[Sherry]

It's pop...not soda.

 

[percysunshine]

It's pop...not soda.

Dang....Sherry is from the mid-west.

 

[Sherry]

It's pop...not soda.

Dang....Sherry is from the mid-west.

Born and raised in the burbs north of Chicago...currently residing in the Sunshine state.

 

[BluePhantom]

It's pop...not soda.

pop is something guys who wear wife beaters give their wives when they don't do the dishes.....I'll be happy to sit down and have a soda with ya though.

 

[percysunshine]

It's pop...not soda.

Dang....Sherry is from the mid-west.

Born and raised in the burbs north of Chicago...currently residing in the Sunshine state.

The pop vs. soda thing was always a curiosity. It was always the east coasters that called it soda.

 

[Two Thumbs]

North vs South?
First let me say I am not trying to pick a fight or rehash the Civil war,I'm trying to understand something that I thought was long dead. I'm a Northerner born and raised and very proud of family and heritage.

Recently I have been encountering some remarks about people up North from folks living down South that weren't nice to say the least. My sister, whose Ex- in- laws are from the Carolina's, tells me it's common, or at least it was with her inlaws, to make "Damn Yankee" comments.

I'll be the first to admit the North East is very rude and obnoxious or can seem so to people who don't live here.The further North you go the worse it gets. I've been in the South several times but never encountered this prejudice face to face, but on line it seems to be prevalent.

It's 2012 the Civil War was in the 1860's and I gotta say that most people in the USA did the major immigration thing in the early 1900's and their family's weren't even here during the Civil War. So here's the Question. Why the long standing animosity with Southerner's toward the North? Seems as silly to me as blacks going on about Slavery when they never were slaves or American's getting testy about the Brit's over the Revolution. Why can't this country move on?

Humans are tribal by nature.

And when you live in the greatest country ever, the only competition is other Americans.

We route for teams that have meaning to us. Notre Dame rocks and USC can go fuck itself. [I've been to neither campus, but my family came from Ireland]

Country folk can survive.
City people have art and other useless crap.

on and on


Hell, southerners don't like south-westerners. They just aint right.

 

[whitehall]

Maybe you got it bas-ackward violet. The South has been treated like a conquered country for the last 140 years. The Southern white male is the only target left for institutionalized bigotry. You can't make Italian or Polish jokes or make fun of fairies so the only one left for the butt of jokes is "rednecks". For example they had (have) a series on the history channel called "redneck rockets" or something like that. It's about a bunch of really smart guys who get together to build and engineer rockets that they launch. The kicker is that they have southern accents that bigoted yankees have learned to associate with ignorance in the last 140 years of anti-southern propaganda so it seems funny.

 

[syrenn]

It's pop...not soda.

Its all a coke.

 

[syrenn]

Yankees come and visit and then go home, Damn yankees move here!

Well, sort of. Lately we have a distinct subspecies I call "tame" or "domesticated" Yankees. These usually come down here to get away from the mess they have made up there, and the politics that caused it, as well as the climate.They seem to take readily to our way of life (most of them in fact, enjoy it), and after a period of adaptation, usually fit in well here (once we teach them what seasonings are for, and not to boil everything to death). These are completely harmless, and some of them can get to be almost Southern after a few years (though I have yet to cure any of that dreadful accent, which grates upon a Southern ear like fingernails run across a chalkboard).

I've learned to appreciate the people and the life style. I attend the races in Talladega and I own a Rebel flag. I've even gotten used to being called Mister Ernie.
I know the difference between "y'all and "all y'all". I know that crawfish, crayafish, crawdads and mud bugs are all the same thing and are good for something other than bass bait.
I'm beginning to be able to communicate in Alabamian but I still need to consult google translate from time to time.
I LOVE it here!

And crawfish season...is almost here!!!!

 

[Sherry]

It's pop...not soda.

pop is something guys who wear wife beaters give their wives when they don't do the dishes.....I'll be happy to sit down and have a soda with ya though.

It's been more than 30 years ago, but when my stepdad from southern Illinois went into a Big Boy's in Chicago and ordered a soda, this is what he got...