No terrorists here

[Larkinn]

And Israel invaded Lebanon because.....

Because Hezbollah attacked some Israeli soldiers and Israel decided to wage an extremely inappropriate, unproportional response.

 

[Dr Grump]

Because Hezbollah attacked some Israeli soldiers and Israel decided to wage an extremely inappropriate, unproportional response.

I'd suggest AFTER their response that over 200 rockets were then fired into Israel, which suggests that maybe Hizbollah were more than prepared for the outcome.

 

[Larkinn]

Really?

Yes, really.

1,000 civilian deaths caused by Hezbollah hiding like little girls behind women and children and installing their missiles and terrorists in civilan areas.

Right, Israel had nothing at ALL to do with it.

By the way...AI says those reports were fraudulent and found NO cases of Hezbollah using civilians as shields.

Leave the area where the missiles were situated. Not optimum, but better than dying. But Hezbollah wanted a show so wouldn't let the civilians leave.

Because the civilians in Lebanon had a map of Lebanon with all the missile sites marked with an X and knew where to go where they would be safe.

I think Israel has the right to stop missiles from hitting its cities.

Lebanese civilians have a right to live. Funny you only concentrate on certain peoples rights here.

I called you no such thing. But that doesn't excuse the lack of tolerance for Israel defending itself and requiring it to live up to standards not asked of any other country.

Actually you did. You inferred that I wanted Israel to be run over and exterminated, you've inferred that I think Israeli deaths are acceptable, and other shit as well that I don't care to look up.

Standards not asked of any other country? Name a country that does what Israel does that I don't think is in the wrong. Israel gets a fucking by. No other western country could occupy a people, treat them like second class citizens, invade other countries at will, and get away with it.

Uninvolved??? How is Lebanon uninvolved when it couldn't control its terrorists?

So the US can invade Saudi Arabia because of 9/11?

Why did Hezbollah have 200 missiles to fire into Israel?

Because they are an armed military group.

Not a lie... just pointing out..it's not like Israel was beating up on some poor little guy who couldn't fight back. And, I'd remind you that Israel wouldn't have needed to take any action but for missiles being fired from Lebanon into it's cities.

Actually it was beating up on some poor little guy. Its called the Lebanese civilian population.

Absolutely they would have been obliterated. Even today the pals say they want the jews in the sea.

Which wouldn't actually happen.

How long do you think Israel could sustain fighting a major war with hand-to-hand combat where it's full military reserves got called up?

No idea.

And,yes, they have been restrained.

Haha, no.

 

[Larkinn]

HR violations tend to depend on your point of view. From their point of view, anything that protects their country is okay.

Not quite. HR violations have defined standards in int'l law.

So, you're saying you're an egotistical asshole that knows better then the ENTIRE world.

Not quite. Do try and actually read what I said next time and try again.

As far as the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular are concerned, they've been fucked over.

Yes they have.

Guess what, when countries look out for their own interests, it usually means they're fucking over someone.

Not in modern times. We've realized there are a great many things which help both sides. Trade for instance.

Once again, we're back to a certain point of view for things. You aren't going to make everyone happy, so might as well look out for your own.

Not everyone is going to be thrilled, but you can create a peaceable solution where people aren't getting killed anymore even if it doesn't make everyone happy as a clam.

 

[TheGoodShepherd]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_conflict

The 2006 Lebanon War, known in Lebanon as the July War[18] (Arabic: حرب تموز Ḥarb Tammūz) and in Israel as the Second Lebanon War (Hebrew: מלחמת לבנון השנייה Milkhemet Levanon Ha-Shniya),[19] was a 33-day military conflict in Lebanon and northern Israel. The principal parties were Hezbollah paramilitary forces and the Israeli military.


Nothing subjective about it...It DID happen. If you say it didnt then by all means...Prove me wrong with a report that says otherwise.

I'm not claiming the event you presented did not happen. What I am saying is Hezbollah and other objective observers would not frame it in the way you are. Hence they would not argue Israel's timeline is "the beginning" of the conflict.

Frankly, this is a case of putting the cart before the horse regarding the alleged 'beginning'.

In fact, the wiki article references a New York times piece (which is based on information provided from the Israeli government) that admits "Israel, already waging a military operation in the Gaza Strip to free a soldier captured by Palestinian militants on June 25, immediately responded by sending armored forces into southern Lebanon for the first time in six years."


That's straight from the source you provided. Nevermind the NYT article does not mention the kidnapping of the two Gaza Strip doctors by Israeli forces that precipitated the ensuing Israeli raid to free Cpl. Shalit (I believe his name was) or how the 'military operation in the Gaza Strip' even began.

Israel has conducted many cross-border raids and kidnapped what they classify as 'state-enemies' to prisons where prisoners are held without charges - sometimes for years.

It is not new or surprising in that part of the world. One side claims 'he started it!' while the other says 'no, you did!"

 

[Larkinn]

When the Lebanese stop Hezbollah, then they'll be innocent. Until then, I don't think of them as innocent at all.

Fuckwit.

Civilians are always innocent. This is the same type of moronic reasoning that justifies 9/11.

 

[Dr Grump]

No other western country could occupy a people, treat them like second class citizens, invade other countries at will, and get away with it.

Er, you ever heard of a country called Viet Nam? Or Iraq? Or Afghanistan? No other western countries (that I know of) are subject to suicide bombers or people firing rockets into their back yard...

So the US can invade Saudi Arabia because of 9/11?

The US invaded Afghanistan for exactly the same reason Israel invaded Lebanon. So while your analogy is right, it was directed at the wrong country.
As an aside, if the US did want anybody to blame for terrorism, SA would be a good start, so many an invasion was/is warranted..

 

[Larkinn]

I'd suggest AFTER their response that over 200 rockets were then fired into Israel, which suggests that maybe Hizbollah were more than prepared for the outcome.

I don't give a shit what they did to Hezbollah.

I give a shit what they did to Lebanon and its civilians.

 

[Larkinn]

Er, you ever heard of a country called Viet Nam? Or Iraq? Or Afghanistan? No other western countries (that I know of) are subject to suicide bombers or people firing rockets into their back yard...

The US never occupied Vietnam. Supposedly they were just helping one side of the conflict and were invited in.

Afghanistan was UN sanctioned.

Iraq is supposedly being turned over to its people and has a government.

The US invaded Afghanistan for exactly the same reason Israel invaded Lebanon. So while your analogy is right, it was directed at the wrong country.

Because 3,000 of its people were killed?

Proportional response, remember.

As an aside, if the US did want anybody to blame for terrorism, SA would be a good start, so many an invasion was/is warranted..

Not quite, no.

 

[Dr Grump]

I don't give a shit what they did to Hezbollah.

I give a shit what they did to Lebanon and its civilians.

ooohhhhh...shit, I didn't realise I was dealing with an armchair critic, who can sit back on his moral high horse while having never been there or had to take into consideration what it is actually like there on the ground.

Let me guess: You are either 1) A male in his early to mid 20s, college education (probably some sort of social science or similar - philosophy), or 2) Former hippie from the 60s?

Now, before you think of me as some sort of conservative, bear in mind I have been called a socialist and communist, and if I was living in the US Nader would probably get my vote, or Hillary at a stretch. I hate Bush's guts and think he is a low life scumsucker. What I am however, is a realist.

I told this to a couple of people on this board, and I'll tell you. I'm from NZ, and we have a dude called Winston Peters in parliament. He used to be a vocal critic of govt because he was part of a very small party in our parliament and did/does not have a shit show of ever gaining sole power. As the prime minister said at the time he was under heavy fire from Peters "It's all right for Winston to have the perfect answer, he'll never be PM."

You are exactly the same. You are sitting on your high horse being Mr/Ms Moral Consciousness of the World. We can all do that Larkinn...that's one of the easiest gigs in the world. Actually hitting the ground and doing something for real - that's a whole different story.

 

[Dr Grump]

The US never occupied Vietnam. Supposedly they were just helping one side of the conflict and were invited in.
Afghanistan was UN sanctioned.
Iraq is supposedly being turned over to its people and has a government.

Absolutely you occupied Viet Nam. You were invited in by a corrupt regime that was not voted in by the people.
Afghanistan was invaded because of pressure put on by the UN by the US. The US would have gone in anyway. Iraq proves that.
As for Iraq, it is still an occupation, whether you like it or not.

Because 3,000 of its people were killed?
Proportional response, remember.

FOr a start 3000 of your people were not killed. Quite a few were foreigners. Also, you think the US response in Afghanistan has been proportional. You think only 3000 Afghan civilians have died over the past five years?

Not quite, no.

Why wouldn't SA be a good start? It is a dictorial govt and its leaders fund Wahibbist Islam, one of the most fundamentalist versions of the religion. CIA and MI5 and several other intel agencies believe a lot of Saudi royal money goes to serruptitiously aid Americas' enemies in the region.

 

[Larkinn]

ooohhhhh...shit, I didn't realise I was dealing with an armchair critic, who can sit back on his moral high horse while having never been there or had to take into consideration what it is actually like there on the ground.

Let me guess: You are either 1) A male in his early to mid 20s, college education (probably some sort of social science or similar - philosophy), or 2) Former hippie from the 60s?

Now, before you think of me as some sort of conservative, bear in mind I have been called a socialist and communist, and if I was living in the US Nader would probably get my vote, or Hillary at a stretch. I hate Bush's guts and think he is a low life scumsucker. What I am however, is a realist.

I told this to a couple of people on this board, and I'll tell you. I'm from NZ, and we have a dude called Winston Peters in parliament. He used to be a vocal critic of govt because he was part of a very small party in our parliament and did/does not have a shit show of ever gaining sole power. As the prime minister said at the time he was under heavy fire from Peters "It's all right for Winston to have the perfect answer, he'll never be PM."

You are exactly the same. You are sitting on your high horse being Mr/Ms Moral Consciousness of the World. We can all do that Larkinn...that's one of the easiest gigs in the world. Actually hitting the ground and doing something for real - that's a whole different story.

Perhaps you should read some of the things HR groups have said about that invasion and how Israel was said to have had a policy of extracting a form of "collective punishment" from the Lebanese people before you go around talking shit.

Armchair critic? Yes. As are you. Wait, I don't suppose you were there in Lebanon/Israel during that war? No? Then you have the same standing as I do.

By the way. I haven't said anything in this thread concerning morals, I've only said things concerning violations of int'l law.

 

[jillian]

Perhaps you should read some of the things HR groups have said about that invasion and how Israel was said to have had a policy of extracting a form of "collective punishment" from the Lebanese people before you go around talking shit.

Armchair critic? Yes. As are you. Wait, I don't suppose you were there in Lebanon/Israel during that war? No? Then you have the same standing as I do.

By the way. I haven't said anything in this thread concerning morals, I've only said things concerning violations of int'l law.

Cause HR groups have aways been so very fair to Israel, right?

 

[Larkinn]

Absolutely you occupied Viet Nam. You were invited in by a corrupt regime that was not voted in by the people.

Oh well, that means the government wasn't legitimate. Sorry we should have held elections in a war zone and then set up a new government BEFORE invading. No...wait...

Whether democratic or not, the regime was the legitimate rulers of Vietnam.

Afghanistan was invaded because of pressure put on by the UN by the US. The US would have gone in anyway. Iraq proves that.

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter WHY the UN sanctioned it, only that they did.

As for Iraq, it is still an occupation, whether you like it or not.

Yes it is, but its vastly different than the occupation of the Palestinians.

FOr a start 3000 of your people were not killed. Quite a few were foreigners.

They are our people if they are killed on our land, we take responsibility for their deaths. If you come to the US and get killed, we will still prosecute the killer, not let him go because you are from NZ.

Also, you think the US response in Afghanistan has been proportional. You think only 3000 Afghan civilians have died over the past five years?

Probably not, no. As I said, its irrelevant since the UN sanctioned it.

Why wouldn't SA be a good start? It is a dictorial govt and its leaders fund Wahibbist Islam, one of the most fundamentalist versions of the religion. CIA and MI5 and several other intel agencies believe a lot of Saudi royal money goes to serruptitiously aid Americas' enemies in the region.

Again, proportionalism.

 

[Larkinn]

Cause HR groups have aways been so very fair to Israel, right?

Why don't you give me a list of who all hates Israel and is anti-Semitic so I can have it here just to refer too before I post anything. It seems as if anyone who ever criticizes Israel or says they are wrong suddenly becomes an Israel-hater who was never fair to Israel anyway and should never be listened too.

Bullshit. If you want to make this claim, cite how AI is unfair to Israel.

 

[Diuretic]

None of his post has anything to do with the TAPES they have and the admitted confesses the men were saying what the tapes have proven. The defense is not that the men tried to get money from Al Queda, the defense is " gee we were gonna rip off Al Queda". Sure that is believable. Maybe to a 5 year old, or a liberal enabler.

Do a little research yourself.

I'll just wait and see how it goes.

As with any case in front of a court, the admissible evidence has to be weighed by the jury who are hearing it.

No doubt also the jurors are mindful of the presumption of innocence and the necessity for the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Dr Grump]

Perhaps you should read some of the things HR groups have said about that invasion and how Israel was said to have had a policy of extracting a form of "collective punishment" from the Lebanese people before you go around talking shit.

Armchair critic? Yes. As are you. Wait, I don't suppose you were there in Lebanon/Israel during that war? No? Then you have the same standing as I do.

By the way. I haven't said anything in this thread concerning morals, I've only said things concerning violations of int'l law.

Yeah, but I know the history of the place and have been there. Have you?

And those HR groups don't have an agenda do they?

BTW, I agree that Israel often acts way OTT for my liking. To a degree they might have in this instance. What I'm sick of is people blaming them all the time.

It's like somebody throws a punch and smacks me in the face and when I hit back they go crying to their mummy.

You can't do scissors, paper rock in a war zone Bucko. I mean, your solution is so pathetic and unattainable it borders on trolling.

For example: Larrikin's world at the site of an Israeli rocket attack: (Best Peewee Herman voice). "Oh, so the naughty Hizbollah people fired a rocket into Israel and killed six Israelis. Oh, what do to! Oh, I know, how about you three guys...yes, you three in the IDF uniform...how about walking across the Lebanese border and walk up to some Hizbollah guys and ask them to come back. There is a condition though: You must only bring back six! And once you get them here, ask them to turn around and shoot them in the head. Now, remember boys, six and six only. It must be a proportional response.

Now, in other matters, for dinner tonight it'll be kosher beef, rice and peas. Can Privates Leob and Silverstein, please report to the kitchen. Your job today is to dish our the rice grains and peas. You must count every rice grain and pea, and make sure everybody in the unit gets exactly the same. It's all about proportional you know.

Where are Privates Greenbaum and Springfeld? We'll be putting tents up soon and I need them to make sure they're all exactly the same size. Greenbaum? Private Greenbaum........??''

 

[Dr Grump]

Whether democratic or not, the regime was the legitimate rulers of Vietnam.

You mean like Iraq?

Probably not, no. As I said, its irrelevant since the UN sanctioned it.

Oh, so it's OK for civilians to die as long as the UN sanctions it. Roger..

 

[jillian]

Why don't you give me a list of who all hates Israel and is anti-Semitic so I can have it here just to refer too before I post anything. It seems as if anyone who ever criticizes Israel or says they are wrong suddenly becomes an Israel-hater who was never fair to Israel anyway and should never be listened too.

Bullshit. If you want to make this claim, cite how AI is unfair to Israel.

You want to talk about AI? OK... fair enough. I used to have a monthly amount deducted from my bank account for AI. I believed in what they did. Then they started doing what you're doing and only talk about the poor palestinians without any discussion of their responsibility in this matter or what constitutes a fair resolution..... they also think it's ok for Israeli citizens to get blown up. But no worries, right?

Did you know that Walter Yetnikoff (who used to be head of SONY records) and Bruce Springsteen stopped talking over Bruce doing the AI tour? It's just an aside, and meaningless, I know. But most of us think on this issue AI should have at least made an effort to be evenhanded.

FWIW, I also specifically blame AI for a lot of the hostility toward Israel right now because people of good will actually believed them.

 

[Dr Grump]

Why don't you give me a list of who all hates Israel and is anti-Semitic so I can have it here just to refer too before I post anything. It seems as if anyone who ever criticizes Israel or says they are wrong suddenly becomes an Israel-hater who was never fair to Israel anyway and should never be listened too.

Bullshit. If you want to make this claim, cite how AI is unfair to Israel.

AI dislikes almost every country in the world. Why are you taking up their case against Israel and not their case against: Syria, Jordan, Saudi, USA, Name an African Country, Name an Asian Country, Australia, yadda, yadda, yadda...