NJ Supreme Court claims more $ = better education

Discussion in 'Education' started by chanel, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. chanel
    Offline

    chanel Silver Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    12,130
    Thanks Received:
    2,744
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    People's Republic of NJ
    Ratings:
    +2,748
    Christie's budget cuts left N.J. schools unable to provide 'thorough and efficient' education, judge rules | NJ.com

    Big blow for Christie. And the taxpayers of NJ. It's not just the unions folks. Here in NJ, every out of control spending program has been legislated by the bench.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  2. midcan5
    Offline

    midcan5 liberal / progressive

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2007
    Messages:
    11,394
    Thanks Received:
    2,516
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Location:
    Philly, PA
    Ratings:
    +3,927
    "The difficulty in addressing New Jersey's fiscal crisis and its constitutionally mandated obligation to educate our children requires an exquisite balance not easily attained," Doyne wrote. "Something need be done to equitably address these competing imperatives. That answer, though, is beyond the purview of this report. For the limited question posed to the Master, it is clear the State has failed to carry its burden." from OP

    Interesting dilemma. New Jersey has some of the nicest schools and parks and outrageous property taxes. Princeton is beautiful, Camden a disaster. But Reagan raised taxes in lots of areas, why can't republicans today do the same.
     
  3. Skull Pilot
    Offline

    Skull Pilot Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Messages:
    36,718
    Thanks Received:
    5,098
    Trophy Points:
    1,130
    Ratings:
    +13,256
  4. martybegan
    Offline

    martybegan Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2010
    Messages:
    35,312
    Thanks Received:
    4,905
    Trophy Points:
    1,140
    Ratings:
    +16,405
    You do realize that this is basically just the money above and beyond local property taxes that the state has to provide? How much more can you raise taxes in a state that is already swamped by them? At what point to people just start leaving Joisey?

    Keep remembering that if you raise taxes on a person by say $2,000 and that is enough for them to leave, you dont just lose the $2k, you lose thier whole tax payment.
     
  5. chanel
    Offline

    chanel Silver Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    12,130
    Thanks Received:
    2,744
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    People's Republic of NJ
    Ratings:
    +2,748
    I don't know where they will get an extra 2 billion dollars. As many of you know, I am a member of the NJEA and a Republican. I expect the teachers to be celebrating today. What they won't realize is that it is likely the teachers who will be making up a significant part of the shortfall. I fear a WI type battle soon.
     
  6. WorldWatcher
    Offline

    WorldWatcher Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2010
    Messages:
    7,116
    Thanks Received:
    1,305
    Trophy Points:
    200
    Location:
    VA
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Some thoughts (in random order)...

    Public Schools exist as a "safety net" net for homeschoolers. If homeschooling doesn't work for the parents, then the kids can be enrolled in Public Schools. Those failed cases then would show up in public school scores. In other words homeschool is a self-selection for success process, parents select it and if it works they continue. If the situation fails then those students (in most cases) end up in public schools.

    By definition, homeschooling parents are going to be much more engaged with their children and that child's education. Parental involvement is probably one of the biggest factors in raising an educated child.

    Teacher:Student ratios have a huge impact on on student performance. In a homeschool you have basically a 1:1 ratio on the subject being taught. That ensures maximum engagement between the teacher and the student. Much more difficult for students to get off task when total engagement occurs. On the other hand public schools in elementary have 20-30 students, in the high schools classes may be about the same size but will rotate through so a teacher there might be trying to work with 100-150 students per day. Take unprepared "amateurs" used to dealing with 1:1 ratios and put them in a room with 20-30 students or in a rotating class schedule where they have 100-150 students per day and then compare their performance with "professionals". Personally I doubt they (the students) will do as well.

    Homeschool students, when compared on an individual basis, do not always outperform public school counterparts. Homeschool students performance compares favorably with public school performance when comparing populations. As previously mentioned homeschool success tends to be a self-selection process, public schools have no option - they must take all comers. I think a more accurate comparison might occur if you compare self-selection process to self-selection process. Compare homeschool middle and high school student to self-selecting public school students in advanced, honors, AP, and IB curriculum, in such an apples to apples comparison my premise is that the difference would not be as pronounced.​





    [DISCLAIMER: I am not downplaying the importance or effectiveness of homeschooling. I'm simplying trying to point out some logical, analytic, non-emotion driven, non-partisan reasons for why homeschoolers (as a population) may perform better on standard measurements then public school students (as a general population). And no this isn't being written to defend public school teachers.]


    >>>>
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  7. Quantum Windbag
    Offline

    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,308
    Thanks Received:
    5,017
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +5,226
    Could it be that Republicans actually learned that raising taxes does not reduce the deficit? Even you should understand that because the deficit went up under Reagan, despite the fact that he raised taxes.
     
  8. Quantum Windbag
    Offline

    Quantum Windbag Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    58,308
    Thanks Received:
    5,017
    Trophy Points:
    245
    Ratings:
    +5,226
    I agree with most of what you said above. I will, however, point out that there is no real evidence that the student/teacher ratio has a significant impact on anything. That is nothing more than a myth perpetrated by teachers unions and teachers. Homeschooling works best when the parent does not restrict learning to the assignment, but engages their child throughout the day, no matter what they are doing. They can use a shopping trip to teach math skills, a trip to the cleaners to discuss chemistry, and turn walking the dog into a lesson on biology and ecology.

    Homeschooling gives practical and applied lessons to reinforce the books. This means that more than one way of learning is engaged, and the lesson is reinforced. That will never happen in a school environment, no matter how much money, or how many teachers, we hire. It is not a function of the student/teacher ratio at all.
     
  9. Dont Taz Me Bro
    Offline

    Dont Taz Me Bro USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    35,275
    Thanks Received:
    7,554
    Trophy Points:
    1,170
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Ratings:
    +22,349
    I would imagine that the New Jersey Supreme Court is far to the left, so this ruling isn't surprising. Supporters of the education status quo can't be bothered with facts.
     
    • Thank You! Thank You! x 1
  10. chanel
    Offline

    chanel Silver Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    12,130
    Thanks Received:
    2,744
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    People's Republic of NJ
    Ratings:
    +2,748
    Yes they are. And I don't want to bore anyone with the stories of waste and corruption at the 30 "poor districts" whose per pupil costs are over 20K. But I am curious to know if other states operate this way. Can the courts overrule the governor and legislature without any concern for the budget? When school, mental health, or other entitlements are cut, can the court unilaterally reinstate them? Seems like a dangerous precedent doesn't it?
     

Share This Page