New deal with Cuba

[JoeB131]

We did have free trade in the 1950s. There was a concerted effort after WWII to avoid the isolationist policies of the first half of the century, which led to all sorts of international agreements to open borders to commerce, including creating GATT. Tariffs in 1960 were lower than they were in 1950, and were lower still in 1970, and even lower in 1980. The Eisenhower administration was a big proponent of free trade and spearheaded these arrangements.

and we got terrible results. The Japanese stole our TV business, they and the Germans stole a lot of our car business.

Then the multi-national corporations said, Hey, let's move our factories to countries where they have no rights or environmental laws and TOTALLY gut the middle class.

So we have pretty much 60 years of evidence of Free Trade being a terrible idea.

Wow. Fucking seriously?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Use your dictionary, you moron. I'm not here to educate you on basic terminology and how they differ. You can continue to call corporatism capitalism all you like, but they are not the same. Not even close.

So you are kind of admitting you really can't define a difference that means anything in a real term.

Thanks.

No, I'm telling you to do the work and see that these two terms have nothing in common.

Dullard.

 

[rightwinger]

If it makes you conservatives feel any better.....

Putin has given Cuba full recognition

 

[Toro]

We did have free trade in the 1950s. There was a concerted effort after WWII to avoid the isolationist policies of the first half of the century, which led to all sorts of international agreements to open borders to commerce, including creating GATT. Tariffs in 1960 were lower than they were in 1950, and were lower still in 1970, and even lower in 1980. The Eisenhower administration was a big proponent of free trade and spearheaded these arrangements.

and we got terrible results. The Japanese stole our TV business, they and the Germans stole a lot of our car business.

Then the multi-national corporations said, Hey, let's move our factories to countries where they have no rights or environmental laws and TOTALLY gut the middle class.

So we have pretty much 60 years of evidence of Free Trade being a terrible idea.

Wow. Fucking seriously?

But you also think that living standards are lower today than 60 years ago, so your understanding of economic progress is hilariously wrong to begin with.

Free trade has been a boon to the world and to America. Luddites afraid of progress like yourself smashed the weaving looms 200+ years ago. We produce more manufactured goods now than we ever have.

Thank goodness for competition. Without it, we'd be paying $70,000 for a shitty Detroit car that couldn't go more than a few years without breaking down.

 

[TooTall]

Yes, it could and Cuba can simply transport US products to such countries as Iran, N.Korea, and even Russia which have been banned to send to those hostile regimes, thereby undercutting sanctions.

Don't you think that your claim is kinda a stretch. Most exports would be agriculture and domestic living related. I'm pretty sure we won't be exporting weapons to Cuba.

I think you should check to see what sanctions are on Iran, N.Korea and Russia!

The Chamber of Commerce backs the normalization of relations with Cuba, so does pro-business groups the National Foreign Trade Council and USA*Engage, along with the National Farmers Union.
Normalization of Relations will create more permanent jobs than the Keystone pipeline, in the exporting/importing sector, the agriculture sector and the tourism industry. Plus new markets for US products would generate job growth in manufacturing..

A few people will make a lot of money. That is probably the root of everything. A few high money donors were able to get to the right people in the corrupt Obama Administration. I bet if someone was to follow the money it would lead to the answer of why Obama did this stupid thing.

Meanwhile American dollars will be used to fiance a very brutal regime. I thought you Liberals didn't like the idea of supporting brutal regimes? You sure as hell have complained about other administrations and other countries.

I really think that most people don't give a damn about normalizing relations with Cuba. The only reason the Libtards jumped on that bandwagon today is that Obama did it and they do love and support their Messiah.

Well, as a majority of Americans from all sides of the aisle favor normalizing relations with Cuba and have for quite awhile. Add the pro-business and agriculture organizations I listed in a previous post, that's a lot of people who favor improved relations with Cuba.
The Embargo didn't work, why do people want to keep on doing that hasn't worked?
Somebody is out of step with the real world here.
Oh and Flash, you are way too paranoid.

The embargo didn't have the desired affect as long as Castro was supported with the oil money from Venezuela. With the drop in oil prices, that aid has gone away. All Obama had to do is wait and see when the Cubans would throw out the ruling Castros. Instead, he bailed them out and took the place of Venezuela. Not a wise move IMO.

Well, thats an interesting point.
But obviously Venezuela didn't supply that much aid. All one has to do is look at their infrastructure. They were at one time one of the most advanced nations in Latin America, but that was before the revolution. Today their infrastructure is pathetic, all of Cuba is in need of repair, they're a half century behind.
If the embargo would be lifted, it would be a hey day for American businesses. Several American business groups and agriculture groups, including the Chamber of Commerce and have been trying get a movement to get the US and Cuba relations normalized.
Moving forward is good for the Cuban people. Based on factual historical events of communist countries moving towards capitalistic economies and the aftereffect, it's a win-win.
Cuba is sitting on the doorstep of the greatest capitalistic society in the world.

I say what is obvious to some is not obvious to others.

"For the last decade, Venezuela's oil has helped fuel Cuba's economy, providing 60 percent of the communist-ruled island's demands. In exchange, Cuba sends about 30,000 doctors to Venezuela, according to an analysis by Pavel Vidal, a former official at Cuba's central bank and now an economics professor at the Universidad Javeriana in Cali, Colombia.

The commercial relationship with leftist Venezuela accounts for 40 percent of Cuba's trade — or 18 percent of Cuba's gross domestic product, Vidal said. If Venezuela were to cut Cuba loose, completely or partially, it could cause Cuba's economy to contract anywhere from 4 percent to 7.7 percent.

"Cuba depends on Venezuela's political situation," Vidal said. "And right now, Venezuela is unpredictable."

Cuba is well aware of its vulnerability, Vidal said, noting that it's not the first time the island nation has found itself facing this type of situation.

Rewind to the '90s, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, when Cuba's economy shrank by 35 percent. The Soviet Union was a major ally and economic subsidizer, accounting for 28 percent of Cuba's economy.

"Cuba today has put all of its eggs in one basket. Before it was the Soviet Union's basket, today it is Venezuela's basket."

Looking only at the numbers, the impact to Cuba's economy without the aid of Venezuela would be far less than the country suffered in the '90s, but that doesn't mean that Cuba's pain would be lessened. In fact, it could be devastating. Cuba's economy is still convalescent and is not prepared for another punch, which, according to Vidal's report, could drive the country into a recession."

 

[KissMy]

We did have free trade in the 1950s. There was a concerted effort after WWII to avoid the isolationist policies of the first half of the century, which led to all sorts of international agreements to open borders to commerce, including creating GATT. Tariffs in 1960 were lower than they were in 1950, and were lower still in 1970, and even lower in 1980. The Eisenhower administration was a big proponent of free trade and spearheaded these arrangements.

and we got terrible results. The Japanese stole our TV business, they and the Germans stole a lot of our car business.

Then the multi-national corporations said, Hey, let's move our factories to countries where they have no rights or environmental laws and TOTALLY gut the middle class.

So we have pretty much 60 years of evidence of Free Trade being a terrible idea.

Wow. Fucking seriously?

These companies failed to innovate & build what the consumer wanted. Germany & Japan rebuilt their manufacturing after the wars under high oil prices so they designed their vehicles to be very efficient. We had cheap oil until 1973 & did not have to re build our manufacturing, redesign or retool after the war. So our domestic manufacturers made big gas hogs. When the oil embargo hit, Japan had the bugs worked out of building the efficient cars customers demanded & their cars sold like crazy. US manufacturing fell way behind trying to play catch-up. Our CAFE standards are supposed to force our manufacturers to keep pace with foreigners to prevent them from taking more marked share.

 

[JoeB131]

No, I'm telling you to do the work and see that these two terms have nothing in common.

Dullard.

so you are pretty much saying that you can't explain the difference, probably because you are kind of a dullard who doesn't have much going on between the ears.

Got it.

 

[JoeB131]

These companies failed to innovate & build what the consumer wanted. Germany & Japan rebuilt their manufacturing after the wars under high oil prices so they designed their vehicles to be very efficient. We had cheap oil until 1973 & did not have to re build our manufacturing, redesign or retool after the war. So our domestic manufacturers made big gas hogs. When the oil embargo hit, Japan had the bugs worked out of building the efficient cars customers demanded & their cars sold like crazy. US manufacturing fell way behind trying to play catch-up. Our CAFE standards are supposed to force our manufacturers to keep pace with foreigners to prevent them from taking more marked share.

Blah, blah, blah... point is, our government should be looking out for OUR workers, not their workers.

 

[JoeB131]

But you also think that living standards are lower today than 60 years ago, so your understanding of economic progress is hilariously wrong to begin with.

Technology is better. Living standards aren't. Clearly, I don't enjoy the kind of relative affluence my Dad did with his union job, despite having a college degree. My brother is in the SAME union and doesn't have the affluence my dad had.

Free trade has been a boon to the world and to America. Luddites afraid of progress like yourself smashed the weaving looms 200+ years ago. We produce more manufactured goods now than we ever have.

And yet go to a store and try to find something made in America. It's a challenge.

Thank goodness for competition. Without it, we'd be paying $70,000 for a shitty Detroit car that couldn't go more than a few years without breaking down.

So now we get a shitty Korean piece of crap that doesn't go more than a few years, but it only costs $30,000?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

No, I'm telling you to do the work and see that these two terms have nothing in common.

Dullard.

so you are pretty much saying that you can't explain the difference, probably because you are kind of a dullard who doesn't have much going on between the ears.

Got it.

This coming from the fuck that can't pick up a dictionary and see that these words aren't related in the fashion you presented. Job, you're an utter failure at everything you attempt on this board.

 

[KissMy]

We did have free trade in the 1950s. There was a concerted effort after WWII to avoid the isolationist policies of the first half of the century, which led to all sorts of international agreements to open borders to commerce, including creating GATT. Tariffs in 1960 were lower than they were in 1950, and were lower still in 1970, and even lower in 1980. The Eisenhower administration was a big proponent of free trade and spearheaded these arrangements.

and we got terrible results. The Japanese stole our TV business, they and the Germans stole a lot of our car business.

Then the multi-national corporations said, Hey, let's move our factories to countries where they have no rights or environmental laws and TOTALLY gut the middle class.

So we have pretty much 60 years of evidence of Free Trade being a terrible idea.

Wow. Fucking seriously?

But you also think that living standards are lower today than 60 years ago, so your understanding of economic progress is hilariously wrong to begin with.

Free trade has been a boon to the world and to America. Luddites afraid of progress like yourself smashed the weaving looms 200+ years ago. We produce more manufactured goods now than we ever have.

Thank goodness for competition. Without it, we'd be paying $70,000 for a shitty Detroit car that couldn't go more than a few years without breaking down.

Not true. You can still get top quality union built in the USA GM, Dodge or Ford full size trucks for $25,000. They are bigger, haul & tow more, get better mileage & cost less than Toyota or Nissan.

 

[2aguy]

A new era with mass murdering monsters...how quaint.....you have to hand it to the communist mass murderers...they know how to kill on a large scale and get stupid leftists to keep supporting and admiring them....

 

[JoeB131]

This coming from the fuck that can't pick up a dictionary and see that these words aren't related in the fashion you presented. Job, you're an utter failure at everything you attempt on this board.

So again, you can't really explain your theory that corporatism and capitalism are totally different.

 

[JoeB131]

A new era with mass murdering monsters...how quaint.....you have to hand it to the communist mass murderers...they know how to kill on a large scale and get stupid leftists to keep supporting and admiring them....

Yawn, guy, we got into bed with dictators throughout the Cold War who were a lot worse than Castro was. Pinochet, Macros, the Shah, Somoza and yes, Batista.

Our Cuba policy has been 55 years of punishing a country for rejecting us. We can try to dress it up in a human rights suit, but the reality is Big Business will happily take your job and send it to China or Malaysia, which are much worse on human rights than Cuba is.

 

[rightwinger]

A new era with mass murdering monsters...how quaint.....you have to hand it to the communist mass murderers...they know how to kill on a large scale and get stupid leftists to keep supporting and admiring them....

Yes....EVIL commies
But no different from China or Vietnam our good trading partners

Pretending that Cuba does not exist has not worked and the rest of the world is laughing at us as they smoke Cuban cigars

 

[Toro]

Not true. You can still get top quality union built in the USA GM, Dodge or Ford full size trucks for $25,000. They are bigger, haul & tow more, get better mileage & cost less than Toyota or Nissan.

Americans lead the world in light trucks, and American cars are now better than ever.

Thanks to competition from abroad.

 

[JoeB131]

Not true. You can still get top quality union built in the USA GM, Dodge or Ford full size trucks for $25,000. They are bigger, haul & tow more, get better mileage & cost less than Toyota or Nissan.

Americans lead the world in light trucks, and American cars are now better than ever.

Thanks to competition from abroad.

Yes, because they wouldn't have made any improvements on their own, really.

Get real. The thing was, Reagan saw the Japanese were dumping, and threatened to put a stop to that. That's why the Japanese opened all those car plants in the South.

We need politicians who work for American workers and not for multi-national corporations.

 

[Toro]

Technology is better. Living standards aren't. Clearly, I don't enjoy the kind of relative affluence my Dad did with his union job, despite having a college degree. My brother is in the SAME union and doesn't have the affluence my dad had.

Of course living standards are better than they were in the 1950s. People can buy more with what they earn. They live in bigger homes. They work less. They retire earlier. They travel more. They buy nicer cars. They own more cars. They have dishwashers. They have multiple big screen TVs. They own computers and buy things off the Internet without ever leaving their homes. They have a wider selection of better food at the grocery stores. They eat out more. And so on.

That may not apply to you but it does to most people.

 

[Toro]

Yes, because they wouldn't have made any improvements on their own, really.

Get real. The thing was, Reagan saw the Japanese were dumping, and threatened to put a stop to that. That's why the Japanese opened all those car plants in the South.

We need politicians who work for American workers and not for multi-national corporations.

Detroit wouldn't have made as many improvements on their own if they hadn't had the increased competition.

Competition is what drives innovation and improvements. Always has, always will.

Then, when the Japanese opened all the plants in the non-union South, they still ate Detroit's lunch.

 

[Votto]