CDZ National Pride

[I amso IR]

"Josf, totally away from the intent of this thread, I sense that I am enjoying your company. The ability to induce thought, comprehension, and learning are nothing short of genius, of sorts. I am not in a position of thought to respond to our conversation, as of yet. Take care, my friend, and as the "Terminator" said, "I'll be back". Oh, and the guy in the fore ground of my icon, yep, that is me, an old goat."

I am extremely fortunate for many reasons, not limited to those rare occasions when agreement is expressed in words.

The Topic can be limited in any way you see fit, and all that would be needed for me to agree to avoid posting in this limited topic is a request to do so. While off on another Topic I found yet another past use of the term Nation in words that may help this topic stay on track according to the intentions of the OP (perhaps not):

AntiFederalist Papers Paper 4 Freedom Documents

"The Confederation, this despised government, merits, in my opinion, the highest encomium--it carried us through a long and dangerous war; it rendered us victorious in that bloody conflict with a powerful nation; it has secured us a territory greater than any European monarch possesses--and shall a government which has been thus strong and vigorous, be accused of imbecility, and abandoned for want of energy? Consider what you are about to do before you part with the government. Take longer time in reckoning things; revolutions like this have happened in almost every country in Europe; similar examples are to be found in ancient Greece and ancient Rome- -instances of the people losing their liberty by their own carelessness and the ambition of a few. We are cautioned . . . against faction and turbulence. I acknowledge that licentiousness is dangerous, and that it ought to be provided against. I acknowledge, also, the new form of government may effectually prevent it. Yet there is another thing it will as effectually do- -it will oppress and ruin the people."

A nation of criminals glorifying their power to enslave everyone including themselves can be compared to a nation of defenders (federated states) happy to live and let live or, if needed, defend each other effectively against all enemies foreign and domestic (such as said Clinton clan or Bush clan for that matter).

The federal system was inevitable. The nation we know today would not exist had the confederation not been abandoned and replaced with a central federal government. You continue to, in past posts, speak of the defense of the nation. As a confederation it would be an impossibility to do so with all of the varied and loose cannon thoughts that abound. By that I simply mean our people are so fragmented today they have no idea nor care, to do what is best for the nation.The talking point you post above, is certainly true. However if you believe that with the maturity and growth of the nation, the enormous size and population which it has today would have been accomplished under the confederation and a limited central government you are sadly mistaken. We have no idea how things would be today, thankfully, as steps were taken to insure the stability of central government. You would trust the treasury of the United States to a confederation. 51 with the junior treasury located in Washington. That is madness, or do you propose that would be the one federal proposal you would grant. One problem however. Who would fund that treasury? I suppose you feel each confederated state would freely give funding to it. Nonsense! The confederated states themselves would have long ago self destructed. Like it or not, thieves and gangsters aside, we as a nation would not be at this point. The faith you display, in confederation is nothing short of wish in one hand and crap in the other, to see which one fills first. Criminals, criminals, criminals, is what you espouse! Under a confederation of the size you want, you would have them, as a cluster of gangs and would resemble a huge Mafia spread over a huge landmass. We exist now because of the fact we are a Union. You slam my usage and understanding of the national language. Fine, but get off this silly and lacking idea of yours that somehow, somewhere, a good fairy confederation would be better serve this nation than the idea of a unified federal system. If taxation is what is giving you heartburn, what do you propose? An honor system? Good luck with that! With a population of 337 million vs the population of the colonial period, this place would be a free fire zone. Perhaps that is what you wish, but I hope not. Could things be better, absolutely! Are things better, absolutely! Are things as wonderful as they could be, NO! Stop dealing in the past, start contributing to the future, and above have some pride in this nation, the nation you are a part of. Aside from my rant, how are you my friend? Well I hope, and you can take that to the bank.

A Dose of National Pride Would Be Good For America.




7/19/2015



America is suffering due to diversity. Diversity divides and creates turmoil. We are “The United States of America”. We are united and not diverse, as a nation, as some wish.


America desperately needs a dose National Pride. Pride unites and increases the level of harmony. Pride creates a sense of being whole, complete and one, universal pride.


Persons born here must be taught that having been born American they have been blessed. They also have inherited the burden of keeping America free from corrupt government and division. All citizens need to be involved.


More importantly, immigrants, regardless of national origin, need to take seriously the fact that they live here, work here and are welcome here. They should fully support this nation, it's people and seek legal citizenship. They sought a new home and have one. Now support it.


Belief that America is free has nothing to do with what will be given. America is not free, in that sense. America takes work, dedication, and giving. In many parts of the world, the population serves the leaders. In America we have a Constitution which states the government serves the people. It is a public responsibility to insure that the government complies. Failure to do so leads to anarchy and the loss of individual freedom. Much as we have today.


Yes, it is time for a sense of National pride in America. This Nation has struggled since it's inception. It continues that struggle today and will tomorrow. America has vested it's people, wealth, material goods, crops, medical care and much more, attempting to help all on this planet. It is the time, now, for America to turn it's aid inward. Americans, in the homeland must require that government care for America. We have done more than any other country, for this planet. Now it is America's turn, not Hillary Clinton's. She said, “It Takes a Village”. Our National Village will do nicely. May God bless America and all of her people.


I am so IR



345

National pride is the WORST thing in the history of humanity. Immediately sets you at odds with everyone else. "We're the best! Everyone else sucks!" Well, when you think you're all that and a bag of chips, you tend to marginalize everyone else. Makes it a lot easier to have a war if no one cares much about "them."

 

[I amso IR]

A Dose of National Pride Would Be Good For America.




7/19/2015



America is suffering due to diversity. Diversity divides and creates turmoil. We are “The United States of America”. We are united and not diverse, as a nation, as some wish.


America desperately needs a dose National Pride. Pride unites and increases the level of harmony. Pride creates a sense of being whole, complete and one, universal pride.


Persons born here must be taught that having been born American they have been blessed. They also have inherited the burden of keeping America free from corrupt government and division. All citizens need to be involved.


More importantly, immigrants, regardless of national origin, need to take seriously the fact that they live here, work here and are welcome here. They should fully support this nation, it's people and seek legal citizenship. They sought a new home and have one. Now support it.


Belief that America is free has nothing to do with what will be given. America is not free, in that sense. America takes work, dedication, and giving. In many parts of the world, the population serves the leaders. In America we have a Constitution which states the government serves the people. It is a public responsibility to insure that the government complies. Failure to do so leads to anarchy and the loss of individual freedom. Much as we have today.


Yes, it is time for a sense of National pride in America. This Nation has struggled since it's inception. It continues that struggle today and will tomorrow. America has vested it's people, wealth, material goods, crops, medical care and much more, attempting to help all on this planet. It is the time, now, for America to turn it's aid inward. Americans, in the homeland must require that government care for America. We have done more than any other country, for this planet. Now it is America's turn, not Hillary Clinton's. She said, “It Takes a Village”. Our National Village will do nicely. May God bless America and all of her people.


I am so IR



345

National pride is the WORST thing in the history of humanity. Immediately sets you at odds with everyone else. "We're the best! Everyone else sucks!" Well, when you think you're all that and a bag of chips, you tend to marginalize everyone else. Makes it a lot easier to have a war if no one cares much about "them."

I am so IR replies: Get a life! Try it, you might like it. It certainly sets me at odds with you!

 

[Josf]

"One problem however. Who would fund that treasury?"

Why bother offering a competitive viewpoint?

"... inevitable..."

"...would not exist..."

"...an impossibility..."

"...you are sadly mistaken."

"We have no idea..."

"That is madness..."

Apparently you are the absolute source of all knowledge as you can speak for everyone and you know everyone's thoughts.

Back to this:
"One problem however. Who would fund that treasury?"

Those who volunteer as investors in mutual defense are those who are responsible and accountable for mutual defense. Those who turn a voluntary association into an involuntary one are accurately identifiable as criminals, if anyone cares to know the facts in any case where individuals alone, or individuals in groups, turn a voluntary association into an involuntary one, at any level, any place, or any time.

If that is not true, then someone can tell me the process by which any dispute concerning what is, or is not true, is acknowledge as the process due everyone according to true law.

In the case of the working federation that turned into a tyranny in 1789, with the fraudulent effort to criminally cover-up that working federation with a counterfeit replacement, the obvious, confessed, reason for doing so had to do with ensuring the maintenance of funding flowing from the victims to the criminals.

Reclaiming the American Revolution The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions and Their Legacy William Watkins 9781403963031 Amazon.com Books

Here is an explanation of the turning from voluntary association (people in states can join, and pay for, or secede from, and not pay for, voluntary mutual defense) into involuntary association, and the lies told in order to reach that goal:

"But Hamilton wanted to go farther than debt assumption. He believed a funded national debt would assist in establishing public credit. By funding national debt, Hamilton envisioned the Congress setting aside a portion of tax revenues to pay each year's interest without an annual appropriation. Redemption of the principal would be left to the government's discretion. At the time Hamilton gave his Report on Public Credit, the national debt was $80 million. Though such a large figure shocked many Republicans who saw debt as a menace to be avoided, Hamilton perceived debt's benefits. "In countries in which the national debt is properly funded, and the object of established confidence," explained Hamilton, "it assumes most of the purposes of money." Federal stock would be issued in exchange for state and national debt certificates, with interest on the stock running about 4.5 percent. To Republicans the debt proposals were heresy. The farmers and planters of the South, who were predominantly Republican, owed enormous sums to British creditors and thus had firsthand knowledge of the misery wrought by debt. Debt, as Hamilton himself noted, must be paid or credit is ruined. High levels of taxation, Republicans prognosticated, would be necessary just to pay the interest on the perpetual debt. Believing that this tax burden would fall on the yeoman farmers and eventually rise to European levels, Republicans opposed Hamilton's debt program.

"To help pay the interest on the debt, Hamilton convinced the Congress to pass an excise on whiskey. In Federalist N. 12, Hamilton noted that because "[t]he genius of the people will ill brook the inquisitive and peremptory spirit of excise law," such taxes would be little used by the national government. In power, the Secretary of the Treasury soon changed his mind and the tax on the production of whiskey rankled Americans living on the frontier. Cash was scarce in the West and the Frontiersmen used whiskey as an item of barter."

Those are not my words, citation is offered, I even checked the available on-line copies of the words attributed to Mr. Hamilton.

Same source offers an very well written explanation as to why a federation (voluntary association) is one, why people maintain the voluntary nature, why it works the way it works:

Second, federalism permits the states to operate as laboratories of democracy-to experiment with various policies and Programs. For example, if Tennessee wanted to provide a state-run health system for its citizens, the other 49 states could observe the effects of this venture on Tennessee's economy, the quality of care provided, and the overall cost of health care. If the plan proved to be efficacious other states might choose to emulate it, or adopt a plan taking into account any problems surfacing in Tennessee. If the plan proved to be a disastrous intervention, the other 49 could decide to leave the provision of medical care to the private sector. With national plans and programs, the national officials simply roll the dice for all 284 million people of the United States and hope they get things right.

Experimentation in policymaking also encourages a healthy competition among units of government and allows the people to vote with their feet should they find a law of policy detrimental to their interests. Using again the state-run health system as an example, if a citizen of Tennessee was unhappy with Tennessee's meddling with the provisions of health care, the citizen could move to a neighboring state. Reallocation to a state like North Carolina, with a similar culture and climate, would not be a dramatic shift and would be a viable option. Moreover, if enough citizens exercised this option, Tennessee would be pressured to abandon its foray into socialized medicine, or else lose much of its tax base. To escape a national health system, a citizen would have to emigrate to a foreign country, an option far less appealing and less likely to be exercised than moving to a neighboring state. Without competition from other units of government, the national government would have much less incentive than Tennessee would to modify the objectionable policy. Clearly, the absence of experimentation and competition hampers the creation of effective programs and makes the modification of failed national programs less likely.

So your question again:

"One problem however. Who would fund that treasury?"

Competitive answers were offered. The method chosen by the criminals was to extract value from each individual alive in each formerly independent state and to demand from each individual a portion of their earnings that must be paid without question. That was then called DIRECT TAX and it was understood as a sure fire way to destroy liberty, destroy federation, and if those who destroy liberty and federation also destroy rule of law, known as trial by jury according to the common law, then people would no longer have a peaceful means of defense against tyrant criminals running their despotism.

You parrot the standard lies used to sway the MOB when the criminals covered up the working federation. Your absolute authority to tell me how it was is weak when compared to the opinions offered by George Mason, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee, Robert Yates, Luther Martin, and many others then, and since, who have looked closely into the matter and found those standardized lies unfounded in demonstrable fact. The voluntary federation was formed by necessity as a voluntary federation and it was written during that forming of that voluntary federation that the federation was perpetual. The founders of the voluntary federation founded a perpetually voluntary mutual defense association; wholly dependent upon volunteers willing to invest in maintaining it against all enemies foreign (the British Red Coats at the time) and domestic (Hamilton and Washington for example) as criminals always work to TURN voluntary association into involuntary, criminal, association.

"I suppose you feel each confederated state would freely give funding to it. Nonsense!"

Your claim of nonsense is noted. A counter claim is that your viewpoint is criminally negligent given the consequences of collective ignorance concerning this subject matter. The federation worked well enough to defeat the largest Nationalized army of aggression then perpetrating the crime of war of aggression then on the planet, and it did so with voluntary contributions by people in States because all those people in all those states had a mutual enemy. Voluntary associations are maintained by free people in free places, which can be called homes, churches, farms, businesses, corps, towns, cities, counties, states, all federated voluntarily, and even federations, even federations of federations, all voluntary, and the common, obvious, invasive, tyrannical, despotic, criminal, common enemy are always those, like you, who insist that the connection between people must be involuntary: for reasons they claim are absolutely true because they say so.

The reason why voluntary association works best is explained very well by actual facts. People free to shop for a better mutual defense association, like shopping for car insurance, or like shopping for a new computer, or shopping for a new phone, have competitive options. The force of all those free decisions seeking better from worse forces those who work at supplying whatever is demanded to increase quality and lower cost. That is a natural economic law KNOWN to those (if you care to read their writing) who were against the so called Constitution of 1787, which you claim is such an inevitable, and good thing.

If your words indicate that you are personally, as an individual, thinking two opposite things can be true, then why would anyone, other than someone else with a duplicitous mind, trust what you have to say?

"The confederated states themselves would have long ago self destructed."
"We have no idea how things would be today, thankfully, as steps were taken to insure the stability of central government."

Voluntary association works to defend people against involuntary association, also known as freedom, also known as free markets, also known as Liberty, also knowable as fair competition without fraud, threat of aggressive violence, and without aggressive violence rising some people unfairly above other people, and crushing some people unfairly under people.

Involuntary association is formed through deception as some people deceive other people into a false belief that a criminal involuntary association is, in any way, good for anyone, which is false, involuntary association is not good for criminals nor victims, as criminals grow dependent upon the productive capacity of their victims, which prevents the criminals who cause involuntary association from learning economic productivity themselves. Involuntary association is also formed through threat of violence visited upon the targeted victims who dare to question the order to pay the involuntary fee, which can be a part of deception, if there is no power to inflict the violence that is within the threat. Involuntary association is also acted out when those who are aggressively violent do what they do best to the targeted victims.

A part of the deception routine is to claim that involuntary association is inevitable, and necessary, for...timing...maintaining voluntary (read: involuntary) association.

In other words, the lie goes...in order to save them we had to enslave them.

"Like it or not, thieves and gangsters aside, we as a nation would not be at this point."

Not only is the false federation not liked, it is self destructing, all lies, and all things based upon lies, all Tyrannies, all Nation States, all Despotisms, all Imperial Empires, destroy themselves because that is the natural law applied to criminals who organize for their criminal profits at the expense of their targeted victims, with or without, the false claims of absolute authority over the truth, the law, as if these criminals actually thought they are Gods.

When the criminals took over they made sure that every living soul capable of producing anything worth stealing would be targeted and exploited to the fullest extent possible.

If you care to know how they did that, then it stands to reason that you would have figured it out by now. Since your "side" is the side of the criminals, expressed in your words, it states to reason that you care not to know the facts. So why challenge me at this point, and why offer up these regurgitated lies as your authority over these matters?

U.S. National Debt Clock Real Time

"Like it or not, thieves and gangsters aside, we as a nation would not be at this point."

Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New York, and certainly Vermont all but outlawed the heinous crime of African Slavery before the criminals took over in 1789. From that point in 1789 onward the crime of African Slavery accelerated to the destruction of many poor souls including regular farmers whose fruits of their labor then had to compete with subsidized slave labor farmers WHICH NOW is exemplified in what Ross Perot called The Giant Sucking Sound, as false federal tax (extortion) payments are stolen from free market competitors in America, sent to China to help enslave Chinese people (subsidy goes to the slave masters not to the slaves) so as to then ship slave made products back to America which forces entrepreneurial competitors here, out of business.

That does not even begin to quantify the total losses to Liberty concerning the genocide of the Indian population because the criminals took over in 1789. Ages of ancient wisdom was wiped out first by disease, and then by "executive order" as a final solution to someone's Indian problem.

That does not even begin to quantify the total losses to Liberty concerning the cover-up, and counterfeiting, of due process from common law trial by jury into what can be understood as plea bargaining, or the booming business of profiting from subsidized crime, as the very people claiming to be offering security are those funding the criminal drug trade. That is an old trick in the criminal hand book, a trick used by the East India Company when confronted with Nation of Chinese people who refused to trade: becoming so called Opium Wars. Where do you think the current batch of criminals get their false advertisement slogan "War on Drugs"?

"The faith you display, in confederation is nothing short of wish in one hand and crap in the other, to see which one fills first."

Speaking of false advertisement slogans?

Before the so called Civil War (which was predicted by those against the Constitution of 1789) the President of a counterfeit federation ended the Second Criminal Bank of the United States, and there was a time called the Wildcat Banking era.

Now, at this time, there are a number of competitors working to offer people something other than a criminal Central Bank Ponzi scheme. A number of competitive states, including Utah and Arizona, are returning to Gold and Silver backed State currencies. I went to a Conference on this subject and I spoke to one of the advisors hired to help write the statutes concerning the state bank in Utah. We both agreed that the end of the criminal National (not federal) Central Bank would be the result of this higher quality and lower cost competitor in that market, were this to be allowed to exist.

"Under a confederation of the size you want, you would have them, as a cluster of gangs and would resemble a huge Mafia spread over a huge landmass."

You volunteer to be my ventriloquist? I think that tactic is a mixture of the age old Man of Straw and hyperbole.

I'm done with this for now.

 

[I amso IR]

"One problem however. Who would fund that treasury?"

Why bother offering a competitive viewpoint?

"... inevitable..."

"...would not exist..."

"...an impossibility..."

"...you are sadly mistaken."

"We have no idea..."

"That is madness..."

Apparently you are the absolute source of all knowledge as you can speak for everyone and you know everyone's thoughts.

Back to this:
"One problem however. Who would fund that treasury?"

Those who volunteer as investors in mutual defense are those who are responsible and accountable for mutual defense. Those who turn a voluntary association into an involuntary one are accurately identifiable as criminals, if anyone cares to know the facts in any case where individuals alone, or individuals in groups, turn a voluntary association into an involuntary one, at any level, any place, or any time.

If that is not true, then someone can tell me the process by which any dispute concerning what is, or is not true, is acknowledge as the process due everyone according to true law.

In the case of the working federation that turned into a tyranny in 1789, with the fraudulent effort to criminally cover-up that working federation with a counterfeit replacement, the obvious, confessed, reason for doing so had to do with ensuring the maintenance of funding flowing from the victims to the criminals.

Reclaiming the American Revolution The Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions and Their Legacy William Watkins 9781403963031 Amazon.com Books

Here is an explanation of the turning from voluntary association (people in states can join, and pay for, or secede from, and not pay for, voluntary mutual defense) into involuntary association, and the lies told in order to reach that goal:

"But Hamilton wanted to go farther than debt assumption. He believed a funded national debt would assist in establishing public credit. By funding national debt, Hamilton envisioned the Congress setting aside a portion of tax revenues to pay each year's interest without an annual appropriation. Redemption of the principal would be left to the government's discretion. At the time Hamilton gave his Report on Public Credit, the national debt was $80 million. Though such a large figure shocked many Republicans who saw debt as a menace to be avoided, Hamilton perceived debt's benefits. "In countries in which the national debt is properly funded, and the object of established confidence," explained Hamilton, "it assumes most of the purposes of money." Federal stock would be issued in exchange for state and national debt certificates, with interest on the stock running about 4.5 percent. To Republicans the debt proposals were heresy. The farmers and planters of the South, who were predominantly Republican, owed enormous sums to British creditors and thus had firsthand knowledge of the misery wrought by debt. Debt, as Hamilton himself noted, must be paid or credit is ruined. High levels of taxation, Republicans prognosticated, would be necessary just to pay the interest on the perpetual debt. Believing that this tax burden would fall on the yeoman farmers and eventually rise to European levels, Republicans opposed Hamilton's debt program.

"To help pay the interest on the debt, Hamilton convinced the Congress to pass an excise on whiskey. In Federalist N. 12, Hamilton noted that because "[t]he genius of the people will ill brook the inquisitive and peremptory spirit of excise law," such taxes would be little used by the national government. In power, the Secretary of the Treasury soon changed his mind and the tax on the production of whiskey rankled Americans living on the frontier. Cash was scarce in the West and the Frontiersmen used whiskey as an item of barter."

Those are not my words, citation is offered, I even checked the available on-line copies of the words attributed to Mr. Hamilton.

Same source offers an very well written explanation as to why a federation (voluntary association) is one, why people maintain the voluntary nature, why it works the way it works:

Second, federalism permits the states to operate as laboratories of democracy-to experiment with various policies and Programs. For example, if Tennessee wanted to provide a state-run health system for its citizens, the other 49 states could observe the effects of this venture on Tennessee's economy, the quality of care provided, and the overall cost of health care. If the plan proved to be efficacious other states might choose to emulate it, or adopt a plan taking into account any problems surfacing in Tennessee. If the plan proved to be a disastrous intervention, the other 49 could decide to leave the provision of medical care to the private sector. With national plans and programs, the national officials simply roll the dice for all 284 million people of the United States and hope they get things right.

Experimentation in policymaking also encourages a healthy competition among units of government and allows the people to vote with their feet should they find a law of policy detrimental to their interests. Using again the state-run health system as an example, if a citizen of Tennessee was unhappy with Tennessee's meddling with the provisions of health care, the citizen could move to a neighboring state. Reallocation to a state like North Carolina, with a similar culture and climate, would not be a dramatic shift and would be a viable option. Moreover, if enough citizens exercised this option, Tennessee would be pressured to abandon its foray into socialized medicine, or else lose much of its tax base. To escape a national health system, a citizen would have to emigrate to a foreign country, an option far less appealing and less likely to be exercised than moving to a neighboring state. Without competition from other units of government, the national government would have much less incentive than Tennessee would to modify the objectionable policy. Clearly, the absence of experimentation and competition hampers the creation of effective programs and makes the modification of failed national programs less likely.

So your question again:

"One problem however. Who would fund that treasury?"

Competitive answers were offered. The method chosen by the criminals was to extract value from each individual alive in each formerly independent state and to demand from each individual a portion of their earnings that must be paid without question. That was then called DIRECT TAX and it was understood as a sure fire way to destroy liberty, destroy federation, and if those who destroy liberty and federation also destroy rule of law, known as trial by jury according to the common law, then people would no longer have a peaceful means of defense against tyrant criminals running their despotism.

You parrot the standard lies used to sway the MOB when the criminals covered up the working federation. Your absolute authority to tell me how it was is weak when compared to the opinions offered by George Mason, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee, Robert Yates, Luther Martin, and many others then, and since, who have looked closely into the matter and found those standardized lies unfounded in demonstrable fact. The voluntary federation was formed by necessity as a voluntary federation and it was written during that forming of that voluntary federation that the federation was perpetual. The founders of the voluntary federation founded a perpetually voluntary mutual defense association; wholly dependent upon volunteers willing to invest in maintaining it against all enemies foreign (the British Red Coats at the time) and domestic (Hamilton and Washington for example) as criminals always work to TURN voluntary association into involuntary, criminal, association.

"I suppose you feel each confederated state would freely give funding to it. Nonsense!"

Your claim of nonsense is noted. A counter claim is that your viewpoint is criminally negligent given the consequences of collective ignorance concerning this subject matter. The federation worked well enough to defeat the largest Nationalized army of aggression then perpetrating the crime of war of aggression then on the planet, and it did so with voluntary contributions by people in States because all those people in all those states had a mutual enemy. Voluntary associations are maintained by free people in free places, which can be called homes, churches, farms, businesses, corps, towns, cities, counties, states, all federated voluntarily, and even federations, even federations of federations, all voluntary, and the common, obvious, invasive, tyrannical, despotic, criminal, common enemy are always those, like you, who insist that the connection between people must be involuntary: for reasons they claim are absolutely true because they say so.

The reason why voluntary association works best is explained very well by actual facts. People free to shop for a better mutual defense association, like shopping for car insurance, or like shopping for a new computer, or shopping for a new phone, have competitive options. The force of all those free decisions seeking better from worse forces those who work at supplying whatever is demanded to increase quality and lower cost. That is a natural economic law KNOWN to those (if you care to read their writing) who were against the so called Constitution of 1787, which you claim is such an inevitable, and good thing.

If your words indicate that you are personally, as an individual, thinking two opposite things can be true, then why would anyone, other than someone else with a duplicitous mind, trust what you have to say?

"The confederated states themselves would have long ago self destructed."
"We have no idea how things would be today, thankfully, as steps were taken to insure the stability of central government."

Voluntary association works to defend people against involuntary association, also known as freedom, also known as free markets, also known as Liberty, also knowable as fair competition without fraud, threat of aggressive violence, and without aggressive violence rising some people unfairly above other people, and crushing some people unfairly under people.

Involuntary association is formed through deception as some people deceive other people into a false belief that a criminal involuntary association is, in any way, good for anyone, which is false, involuntary association is not good for criminals nor victims, as criminals grow dependent upon the productive capacity of their victims, which prevents the criminals who cause involuntary association from learning economic productivity themselves. Involuntary association is also formed through threat of violence visited upon the targeted victims who dare to question the order to pay the involuntary fee, which can be a part of deception, if there is no power to inflict the violence that is within the threat. Involuntary association is also acted out when those who are aggressively violent do what they do best to the targeted victims.

A part of the deception routine is to claim that involuntary association is inevitable, and necessary, for...timing...maintaining voluntary (read: involuntary) association.

In other words, the lie goes...in order to save them we had to enslave them.

"Like it or not, thieves and gangsters aside, we as a nation would not be at this point."

Not only is the false federation not liked, it is self destructing, all lies, and all things based upon lies, all Tyrannies, all Nation States, all Despotisms, all Imperial Empires, destroy themselves because that is the natural law applied to criminals who organize for their criminal profits at the expense of their targeted victims, with or without, the false claims of absolute authority over the truth, the law, as if these criminals actually thought they are Gods.

When the criminals took over they made sure that every living soul capable of producing anything worth stealing would be targeted and exploited to the fullest extent possible.

If you care to know how they did that, then it stands to reason that you would have figured it out by now. Since your "side" is the side of the criminals, expressed in your words, it states to reason that you care not to know the facts. So why challenge me at this point, and why offer up these regurgitated lies as your authority over these matters?

U.S. National Debt Clock Real Time

"Like it or not, thieves and gangsters aside, we as a nation would not be at this point."

Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New York, and certainly Vermont all but outlawed the heinous crime of African Slavery before the criminals took over in 1789. From that point in 1789 onward the crime of African Slavery accelerated to the destruction of many poor souls including regular farmers whose fruits of their labor then had to compete with subsidized slave labor farmers WHICH NOW is exemplified in what Ross Perot called The Giant Sucking Sound, as false federal tax (extortion) payments are stolen from free market competitors in America, sent to China to help enslave Chinese people (subsidy goes to the slave masters not to the slaves) so as to then ship slave made products back to America which forces entrepreneurial competitors here, out of business.

That does not even begin to quantify the total losses to Liberty concerning the genocide of the Indian population because the criminals took over in 1789. Ages of ancient wisdom was wiped out first by disease, and then by "executive order" as a final solution to someone's Indian problem.

That does not even begin to quantify the total losses to Liberty concerning the cover-up, and counterfeiting, of due process from common law trial by jury into what can be understood as plea bargaining, or the booming business of profiting from subsidized crime, as the very people claiming to be offering security are those funding the criminal drug trade. That is an old trick in the criminal hand book, a trick used by the East India Company when confronted with Nation of Chinese people who refused to trade: becoming so called Opium Wars. Where do you think the current batch of criminals get their false advertisement slogan "War on Drugs"?

"The faith you display, in confederation is nothing short of wish in one hand and crap in the other, to see which one fills first."

Speaking of false advertisement slogans?

Before the so called Civil War (which was predicted by those against the Constitution of 1789) the President of a counterfeit federation ended the Second Criminal Bank of the United States, and there was a time called the Wildcat Banking era.

Now, at this time, there are a number of competitors working to offer people something other than a criminal Central Bank Ponzi scheme. A number of competitive states, including Utah and Arizona, are returning to Gold and Silver backed State currencies. I went to a Conference on this subject and I spoke to one of the advisors hired to help write the statutes concerning the state bank in Utah. We both agreed that the end of the criminal National (not federal) Central Bank would be the result of this higher quality and lower cost competitor in that market, were this to be allowed to exist.

"Under a confederation of the size you want, you would have them, as a cluster of gangs and would resemble a huge Mafia spread over a huge landmass."

You volunteer to be my ventriloquist? I think that tactic is a mixture of the age old Man of Straw and hyperbole.

I'm done with this for now.

I am so IR responds: Every person has the option of playing with the past while afforded no insight into the future, other than conjecture of their own making. To debate the minds of the dead in a living situation is fruitless and of little value. That which is written may or may nor be seen as the hand writing on the wall, depending entirely upon personal opinion. In general terms however, a rehash of a rehash remains Hash! The past, in which you dwell and so well debate, is past and remains unchanged, even tomorrow, should there be a tomorrow, which will remain the same with reference to the past. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, is there by meaningless in light of what has transpired. I also tire of this back and forth as I am attempting to live in the here and now. Good, bad and indifferent are my choices. I attempt to look for what is good (subjective sense) and cast aside the bad (subjective sense). I do not view James Madison as a "traitor", as you do, and will not invoke the word "tyranny" as you often do. Those folks were simply doing the best with what they had to work with, which was not an awful lot. In closing, "straw Men often live in the past while attempting to change that which cannot be changed. Get down from your horse Josph and allow the windmill to turn. It is turning wheat into flour and the bread you so desire. Go in peace, Josph.

 

[Josf]

Back for this exchange as it is to me a higher quality exchange compared competitively with the very limited supply of competition.

"We exist now because of the fact we are a Union."

That is roughly less than half true. We the criminals, anyone belonging in that group, are Unionized by their shared willful employment - with malice aforethought - of deception, threat of violence, and aggressive violence, upon their targeted victims.

We, on the other hand, the non-criminals belong in the non-criminal group, who are Unionized by their shared abhorrence of crime of any kind and this group remains non-criminal for each member of this Union until such time as an individual member of this Union elects to join one of the other groups.

We the defenders who effectively defend the innocent victims from the guilty criminals - foreign and domestic - comprise the union members unified by the thoughts that lead to the actions that effectively cause said defense to be realized in time and place.

When the defenders unionized in 1776 some of the union members were criminal slave traders, slaughterers of Indians, and central banker frauds; but they were easy to spot.

All the defenders needed to maintain the union of defenders was an accurate accounting of who was friend and who was foe in time and place, and to communicate that vital information to enough people so as to constitute a power of defense that overcame, by a significant margin, the criminal power, a powerful defensive force that would deter any notions of crime within the boundaries of the Union.

That was possible, not impossible. That almost happened, nearly happened, and what happened is almost good enough for the current generation to pick up the defensive Union and use it, voluntarily. We have, for example, what the defenders managed to offer to us, which are meanings of words written into a Bill of Rights. If no one volunteers to figure out the meaning, and use of those meanings in those words, then failure is almost certain, and failure is counted many accurate ways, not limited to financial accounts, also measured in the counting of innocent bodies destroyed by the criminals who take over governments.

"You slam my usage and understanding of the national language. Fine, but get off this silly and lacking idea of yours that somehow, somewhere, a good fairy confederation would be better serve this nation than the idea of a unified federal system."

The slamming incident escapes my memory. Quoting said slamming done by me can help me understand my actions past. As to what is silly, or not silly, the same need for precise accounting helps. The use of the word "fairy" is noted, and the misunderstanding of the meanings of words like "confederation" and "federal" are also noted.

Confederation and federal are synonyms expressing a voluntary association as in:

Page 74 of Elliot's Debates Volume One

"On the other side, it was argued by J. Adams, Lee, Wythe, and others, that no gentleman had argued against the policy of the right o separation from Britain, nor had supposed it possible we should ever renew our connection; that they had only opposed its being now declared:
That the question was not whether, by a declaration of independence, we should make ourselves what we are not; but whether we should declare a fact which already exists:
That, as to the people or Parliament of England, we had always been independent of them, their restraints on our trade deriving efficacy from our acquiescence only, and not from any rights they possessed of imposing them; an that, so far, our connection had been federal only, and was now dissolved by the commencement of hostilities:"

Confederation and federal no longer mean the same thing if one word is used by someone to label an involuntary association. If someone used the word Confederation or Federation to label an involuntary association then someone changes the meaning of the word from the original meaning into an opposite meaning like changing the word good to mean the word bad, or like changing the words crime prevention to mean the words crime perpetration.

Adding the word nation into the mix with confederation and federation is adding a neutral, or non-specific, word as a nation of criminals is still a nation, and a nation of defenders is still a nation, a nation of conscientious objectors is still a nation. Federation and confederation, by the original meaning of the words, can be a nation of defenders voluntarily associated as defenders, not as criminals, not as pacifists, not as criminals hiding behind a false front and false flag.

"If taxation is what is giving you heartburn, what do you propose?"

My study has uncovered documents (such as Elliot's Debates, Anti-Federalist Papers, etc.) an obvious need for competitive solutions offered voluntarily, and a due process employed as a way of removing the DICK out of dictatorship, whereby the whole country of people (nation?) decide unanimously which tax is best, voluntary tax, involuntary tax, or something entirely different if such a thing exists. That was the idea behind federation. If many people in many states compete to offer all the people federated in the whole federal union a higher quality and lower cost method of financing the mutual defense of all the people within the whole federation, then that process of competition works toward adapting the financing method to a higher quality and a lower cost by the natural laws of human beings. We want better, we choose better, we want less expensive, we choose less expensive, as a general rule over time. Some people for some reason only they know will choose worse and more expensive.

If the idea is to understand when the federal (voluntary) system went rouge, went the way of criminal means, and you want to look at taxing at that time, then the clear answer is offered in the historical record. Financing of defensive spending was - for the most part - met by the sale of land. Land sales not only financed defensive costs the sale of land created incentives for individual land holders to volunteer in defense of their own land, as individuals, and when individuals accumulate into a collective sum total of defenders, there is in that the solution to the criminal armies of aggression problem. A force of deterrence that is overwhelming is a force that prevents criminals from choosing to attack said defensive force. So tax was, for some time, until the criminals had their way, covered with the sale of land to investors who then are willing to invest further for their defense of their land. It was, in fact, the American dream.

"An honor system? Good luck with that!"

An honor system does not require luck. The competition competing with an honor system is a dishonor system. A dishonor system, or criminal system, does not need luck either, but a dishonor system will inevitably torture and murder the host, and the host is, in demonstrable fact, an honor system.

The only way to cooperate productively, which means economically - in the true and accurate sense of productive economy - is in liberty, which is another way of labeling an honor system, however an honor system, historically, must be secured with effective deterrence of anyone working to replace the honor system with a dishonor system, and that method has been called due process, the law of the land, legem terrae, and trial by jury according to the common law.

Due process is the method by which an honor system is defended against those working to maintain a dishonor system, and luck has nothing to do with it.

"With a population of 337 million vs the population of the colonial period, this place would be a free fire zone."

Even under the worst of conditions, as the criminal Red Coats were rioting in the blood of the innocent, rule of law still worked as exemplified in the following example:

RESPUBLICA v. CARLISLE 1 U.S. 35 1778 Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center

Explained well enough here:

RESPUBLICA v. SHAFFER 1 U.S. 236 1788 Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center

"It is a matter well known, and well understood, that by the laws of our country, every question which affects a man's life, reputation, or property, must be tried by twelve of his peers; and that their unanimous verdict is, alone, competent to determine the fact in issue."

That is the honor system as it worked even in the worst of times; before the criminals usurped the honor system and put in place the current dishonor system.

"Perhaps that is what you wish, but I hope not."

You may have me, actually me, confused with your man of straw made out of your own active imagination.

" NO! Stop dealing in the past, start contributing to the future, and above have some pride in this nation, the nation you are a part of."

Before Waco I read often and with specific intent to learn specific things about your nation and about my liberty in a federation.

After Waco I tried to join an effective Militia to defend against your nation with Waco as the shining example of your dishonorable nation state apparatus, and that did not work out with my wife, my children, an the demands placed on me at my place of employment. Then I ran for Congress. I was not elected. I learned. I've been a member of The John Birch Society, United We Stand (Ross Perot), Fully Informed Jury Association, Libertarian Party, Republican Party (Ron Paul), and recently for one year I was State Coordinator for National Liberty Alliance.

In order to contribute to the future I volunteer and work as a jurist in trial by jury according to what remains of the common laws of free people, and my son has also managed at least one job as a jurist in one case.

If you bemoan the study of the past, by accusing me of living in the past, your "advice" is noted as just another political tactic to me.

"Aside from my rant, how are you my friend? Well I hope, and you can take that to the bank."

I am fortunate. Those who invest into an honorable system deposit honorable credit worthy offers into an honorable bank where honorable measures are stored for productive use.

Those who invest into a dishonorable system deposit dishonorable debt based false promises to pay, without question, into a dishonorable, counterfeit, bank, where cooked books, secreted accurate accounts are hidden behind false accounts, stored for destructive, criminal, use upon anyone daring to produce anything worth stealing.

Edit: Noting a response in between my attempts at responding, and again, if your imaginary caricature of me is something that works for you, despite the falsehood contained within your imaginary caricature of me, then who am I to rain on your parade?

I do not live in the past, the past aids me very well in current situations where many people are endeavoring to maintain an honorable system in the face of so many dishonorable system "patriots."

 

[I amso IR]

Back for this exchange as it is to me a higher quality exchange compared competitively with the very limited supply of competition.

"We exist now because of the fact we are a Union."

That is roughly less than half true. We the criminals, anyone belonging in that group, are Unionized by their shared willful employment - with malice aforethought - of deception, threat of violence, and aggressive violence, upon their targeted victims.

We, on the other hand, the non-criminals belong in the non-criminal group, who are Unionized by their shared abhorrence of crime of any kind and this group remains non-criminal for each member of this Union until such time as an individual member of this Union elects to join one of the other groups.

We the defenders who effectively defend the innocent victims from the guilty criminals - foreign and domestic - comprise the union members unified by the thoughts that lead to the actions that effectively cause said defense to be realized in time and place.

When the defenders unionized in 1776 some of the union members were criminal slave traders, slaughterers of Indians, and central banker frauds; but they were easy to spot.

All the defenders needed to maintain the union of defenders was an accurate accounting of who was friend and who was foe in time and place, and to communicate that vital information to enough people so as to constitute a power of defense that overcame, by a significant margin, the criminal power, a powerful defensive force that would deter any notions of crime within the boundaries of the Union.

That was possible, not impossible. That almost happened, nearly happened, and what happened is almost good enough for the current generation to pick up the defensive Union and use it, voluntarily. We have, for example, what the defenders managed to offer to us, which are meanings of words written into a Bill of Rights. If no one volunteers to figure out the meaning, and use of those meanings in those words, then failure is almost certain, and failure is counted many accurate ways, not limited to financial accounts, also measured in the counting of innocent bodies destroyed by the criminals who take over governments.

"You slam my usage and understanding of the national language. Fine, but get off this silly and lacking idea of yours that somehow, somewhere, a good fairy confederation would be better serve this nation than the idea of a unified federal system."

The slamming incident escapes my memory. Quoting said slamming done by me can help me understand my actions past. As to what is silly, or not silly, the same need for precise accounting helps. The use of the word "fairy" is noted, and the misunderstanding of the meanings of words like "confederation" and "federal" are also noted.

Confederation and federal are synonyms expressing a voluntary association as in:

Page 74 of Elliot's Debates Volume One

"On the other side, it was argued by J. Adams, Lee, Wythe, and others, that no gentleman had argued against the policy of the right o separation from Britain, nor had supposed it possible we should ever renew our connection; that they had only opposed its being now declared:
That the question was not whether, by a declaration of independence, we should make ourselves what we are not; but whether we should declare a fact which already exists:
That, as to the people or Parliament of England, we had always been independent of them, their restraints on our trade deriving efficacy from our acquiescence only, and not from any rights they possessed of imposing them; an that, so far, our connection had been federal only, and was now dissolved by the commencement of hostilities:"

Confederation and federal no longer mean the same thing if one word is used by someone to label an involuntary association. If someone used the word Confederation or Federation to label an involuntary association then someone changes the meaning of the word from the original meaning into an opposite meaning like changing the word good to mean the word bad, or like changing the words crime prevention to mean the words crime perpetration.

Adding the word nation into the mix with confederation and federation is adding a neutral, or non-specific, word as a nation of criminals is still a nation, and a nation of defenders is still a nation, a nation of conscientious objectors is still a nation. Federation and confederation, by the original meaning of the words, can be a nation of defenders voluntarily associated as defenders, not as criminals, not as pacifists, not as criminals hiding behind a false front and false flag.

"If taxation is what is giving you heartburn, what do you propose?"

My study has uncovered documents (such as Elliot's Debates, Anti-Federalist Papers, etc.) an obvious need for competitive solutions offered voluntarily, and a due process employed as a way of removing the DICK out of dictatorship, whereby the whole country of people (nation?) decide unanimously which tax is best, voluntary tax, involuntary tax, or something entirely different if such a thing exists. That was the idea behind federation. If many people in many states compete to offer all the people federated in the whole federal union a higher quality and lower cost method of financing the mutual defense of all the people within the whole federation, then that process of competition works toward adapting the financing method to a higher quality and a lower cost by the natural laws of human beings. We want better, we choose better, we want less expensive, we choose less expensive, as a general rule over time. Some people for some reason only they know will choose worse and more expensive.

If the idea is to understand when the federal (voluntary) system went rouge, went the way of criminal means, and you want to look at taxing at that time, then the clear answer is offered in the historical record. Financing of defensive spending was - for the most part - met by the sale of land. Land sales not only financed defensive costs the sale of land created incentives for individual land holders to volunteer in defense of their own land, as individuals, and when individuals accumulate into a collective sum total of defenders, there is in that the solution to the criminal armies of aggression problem. A force of deterrence that is overwhelming is a force that prevents criminals from choosing to attack said defensive force. So tax was, for some time, until the criminals had their way, covered with the sale of land to investors who then are willing to invest further for their defense of their land. It was, in fact, the American dream.

"An honor system? Good luck with that!"

An honor system does not require luck. The competition competing with an honor system is a dishonor system. A dishonor system, or criminal system, does not need luck either, but a dishonor system will inevitably torture and murder the host, and the host is, in demonstrable fact, an honor system.

The only way to cooperate productively, which means economically - in the true and accurate sense of productive economy - is in liberty, which is another way of labeling an honor system, however an honor system, historically, must be secured with effective deterrence of anyone working to replace the honor system with a dishonor system, and that method has been called due process, the law of the land, legem terrae, and trial by jury according to the common law.

Due process is the method by which an honor system is defended against those working to maintain a dishonor system, and luck has nothing to do with it.

"With a population of 337 million vs the population of the colonial period, this place would be a free fire zone."

Even under the worst of conditions, as the criminal Red Coats were rioting in the blood of the innocent, rule of law still worked as exemplified in the following example:

RESPUBLICA v. CARLISLE 1 U.S. 35 1778 Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center

Explained well enough here:

RESPUBLICA v. SHAFFER 1 U.S. 236 1788 Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center

"It is a matter well known, and well understood, that by the laws of our country, every question which affects a man's life, reputation, or property, must be tried by twelve of his peers; and that their unanimous verdict is, alone, competent to determine the fact in issue."

That is the honor system as it worked even in the worst of times; before the criminals usurped the honor system and put in place the current dishonor system.

"Perhaps that is what you wish, but I hope not."

You may have me, actually me, confused with your man of straw made out of your own active imagination.

" NO! Stop dealing in the past, start contributing to the future, and above have some pride in this nation, the nation you are a part of."

Before Waco I read often and with specific intent to learn specific things about your nation and about my liberty in a federation.

After Waco I tried to join an effective Militia to defend against your nation with Waco as the shining example of your dishonorable nation state apparatus, and that did not work out with my wife, my children, an the demands placed on me at my place of employment. Then I ran for Congress. I was not elected. I learned. I've been a member of The John Birch Society, United We Stand (Ross Perot), Fully Informed Jury Association, Libertarian Party, Republican Party (Ron Paul), and recently for one year I was State Coordinator for National Liberty Alliance.

In order to contribute to the future I volunteer and work as a jurist in trial by jury according to what remains of the common laws of free people, and my son has also managed at least one job as a jurist in one case.

If you bemoan the study of the past, by accusing me of living in the past, your "advice" is noted as just another political tactic to me.

"Aside from my rant, how are you my friend? Well I hope, and you can take that to the bank."

I am fortunate. Those who invest into an honorable system deposit honorable credit worthy offers into an honorable bank where honorable measures are stored for productive use.

Those who invest into a dishonorable system deposit dishonorable debt based false promises to pay, without question, into a dishonorable, counterfeit, bank, where cooked books, secreted accurate accounts are hidden behind false accounts, stored for destructive, criminal, use upon anyone daring to produce anything worth stealing.

Edit: Noting a response in between my attempts at responding, and again, if your imaginary caricature of me is something that works for you, despite the falsehood contained within your imaginary caricature of me, then who am I to rain on your parade?

I do not live in the past, the past aids me very well in current situations where many people are endeavoring to maintain an honorable system in the face of so many dishonorable system "patriots."

I amso IR responds

Josph, I ask you to accept my response to this particular post of yours. I am a retired serviceman who swore an oath to this nation, The United States of America. In this final post I feel it my responsibility to state my position clearly. I cannot, due to the oath I have taken and honor, continue this dialog with you, Josph. Even a vague hint of seditious thought is to me repulsive. That you have called me the enemy, quote, "We the criminals, anyone belonging in that group..." 1st para. I Josph, am not your enemy. You are your own enemy. Further, you freely admit, to me, that you wished to join "an effective milita to defend against your nation". Again, if you in fact do need defense against my nation, you have brought that upon yourself, of and by your own hand. For these two reasons, (a) sedition, (b) you have declared me personally, some one who could not identify you in a crowd of one, your enemy, (c) feel the need to be a member of an "effective milita", leave me no choice but to sever this dialog. I ask you to tread carefully, be wise, and tone down your voice. Those who you declare you as an enemy will in fact become such, should you not write with reserve. As an American Soldier, Retired, I cannot be a part of this. Please refrain from corresponding with me, as of this time. 07/23/2015 19:15 hrs.