Nam vets didnt deserve what they got

[freedombecki]

And I CALL TOTAL Bullshit on your post. So what were you? Two years old? Whatever, you obviously weren't paying attention to what was happening in the real world. Spitting was only a small part of the expressions of hatred and disgust lavished on our troops. A great many Americans found it easier to buy into blatant and obvious communist propaganda than to even give us the benifit of a doubt. Apparently that continues to be true.

There were no news story's written at the time that substantiate anyone being spat upon. Not one

The stories evolved over time and became urban legend

They all have in common....I know someone or I heard of someone. Nobody admits to actually being spat upon. Most storie also lack any details of who did the spitting, where it happened and what the response was

Sorry, but that is simply untrue. I was there and experienced what I'm writting about. If you require a first hand account you've got it. I was starioned at Letterman Gen. USAH on the Presidio in S.F. for aprox. 14 mo. '68-'69 and spitting and name calling weren't even especially note-worthy. There were also many cases of assault and battery. On one occasion I helped treat some young MP's who had battery acid thrown in thier faces whose eyesight was at serious risk. Please stop calling me a myth. I like to believe I'm real.

Some people are ashamed of their actions during that era and would like to pretend they never happened. They would love to have reality seen as myth.

Thanks for your service, 9thIDdoc. My cousin served in Vietnam and Cambodia. He wasn't the same person when he came back, but he stayed in touch until he was about 40. Then I lost track of him after my Christmas cards started coming back. I know he loved me and I him, but he acted like he was lost sometimes, and a little bitter. I think that goes with the awful territory of having served heroically, then coming home to abuse. My cousin lived in the Bay Area when he got back. I don't think that helped him very much. The worst thing is not knowing what happened to him.

 

[freedombecki]

Not only were liberals spitting on our troops back then, they are doing it to our troops these days also.

Anti-War Protester Spits on Iraq War Veteran - YouTube

Thanks for producing proof the anti-war protesters can and do spit on our returning soldiers. I think anyone who disses an American hero in that disparaging and disgusting manner is lower than snake snot.

 

[Divine Wind]

who called them babay killers? you sure that wasn't right wing propaganda?

"Baby killer" was a common term bandied about at the time. I heard it on the television and radio plus read about it in newspapers and magazines in reference to anti-war protesters. It was a pretty intense time.

The phrase is mentioned in this Time article from "The Fog of War" in 2001: The Fog of War 32 years after leaving Vietnam, Bob Kerrey admits a terrible secret - and stands accused of worse. The tangled tale embodies the madness of Vietnam - TIME

I'm not a subscriber so I couldn't access articles from the time even though the search function indicated the phrase was in some of them.

 

[9thIDdoc]

who called them babay killers? you sure that wasn't right wing propaganda?

"Baby killer" was a common term bandied about at the time. I heard it on the television and radio plus read about it in newspapers and magazines in reference to anti-war protesters. It was a pretty intense time.

The phrase is mentioned in this Time article from "The Fog of War" in 2001: The Fog of War 32 years after leaving Vietnam, Bob Kerrey admits a terrible secret - and stands accused of worse. The tangled tale embodies the madness of Vietnam - TIME

I'm not a subscriber so I couldn't access articles from the time even though the search function indicated the phrase was in some of them.

I do hope that you didn't take anything in that "article" seriously because it is the biggest pack of lies I have ever run into all in one place (and that's saying something). LBJ, TrickyDick Nixon, even Ho Chi Min, nobody of that era was as hated as John Kerry and Jane Fonda because of the lies and slander they generated against honorable troops.

 

[Divine Wind]

I do hope that you didn't take anything in that "article" seriously because it is the biggest pack of lies I have ever run into all in one place (and that's saying something).

So you are saying anti-war protesters calling vets a "baby killer" is a lie?

 

[9thIDdoc]

Kerry went way out of his way to make the general public believe that the averge troop killed babies and/or commitied war crimes on a daily basis. Congressional investigation could find no truth to anyof the alligations made by his infamous "winter" soldiers. As much or more than anyone Kerry is responsible for that nickname.

 

[Divine Wind]

Kerry went way out of his way to make the general public believe that the averge troop killed babies and/or commitied war crimes on a daily basis. Congressional investigation could find no truth to anyof the alligations made by his infamous "winter" soldiers. As much or more than anyone Kerry is responsible for that nickname.

Dude, it's a given that the nickname was a gross exaggeration. The point was that the anti-war protesters were using it against our troops while some on this thread deny that the phrase was ever used and that no soldiers were ever spit upon. I was simply supplying proof that the phrase was both common and utilized, not that it was correct. It wasn't. Yes, some kids died. Some by accident, some by intention. Some were used by the VC as grenade carriers or bait. It was fucked up, but you know that is the way it was. The hippies in the streets cursing and spitting on GIs did not.

 

[9thIDdoc]

SOME INSIGHT INTO WHAT AND WHY
----------
QandO: The Fraud of the Winter Soldier


February 16, 2004

The Fraud of the Winter Soldier
Posted by McQ



Many statements have been made that because John Kerry participated in Viet Nam, he had earned the right to protest the war. I want to say an unequivocal “I agree”. But that being said, I’d agree that ANY American has that right. Dissent is critical to the maintenance of freedom and I’d not deny that right to anyone for any reason.

However, as with any right, there come responsibilities. One of the responsibilities incumbent upon any who dissent is to do so in a PRINCIPLED fashion. It is their right to dissent, but it is their duty to do so responsibly.

THAT is the crux of my problem with John Kerry’s dissent. For the most part it was based on fraud. His dissent was NOT based in truth. His dissent was not conducted responsibly. It was, in my opinion, based on mischaracterization, outright lies, and fraud.

[Much of what I’m going to quote here comes from an excellent book that I urge all to read concerning this specifically and Viet Nam and its veterans in general. The book is “Stolen Valor” by B.G. Burkett. I’ll append “[BG]” after those quotes so excerpted.]

Neil Sheehan, certainly not a proponent of the war in Viet Nam by any stretch, characterized what was going on at that time quite well. Sheehan destroyed the credibility of Mark Lane’s book “Conversations with Americans” by revealing most of the “veterans” who’s “atrocities” Lane quoted hadn’t been in combat or even in Vietnam in many cases :

”This kind of reasoning," Sheehan wrote, "amounts to a new McCarthyism, this time from the left. Any accusation, any innuendo, any rumor, is repeated and published as truth."[BG}

It was, however, Lane’s book which inspired the “Winter Solder investigation”. The major organizers of the so-called “investigation” staged in Detroit in 1971 included Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, Phil Ochs, Graham Nash, David Crosby, Tom Hayden, Daniel Berrigan actor Donald Sutherland and activist lawyer and writer Mark Lane - the same guy who’d already been revealed as a fake. Also deeply involved in the organization of the event was the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) which included John Kerry who was on the VVAW Executive committee.




Kerry hooked up with an organization called Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Two events cooked up by this group went a long way toward cementing in the public mind the image of Vietnam as one big atrocity. The first of these was the January 31, 1971, "Winter Soldier Investigation," organized by "the usual suspects" among antiwar celebrities such as Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, and Kennedy-assassination conspiracy theorist, Mark Lane. Here, individuals purporting to be Vietnam veterans told horrible stories of atrocities in Vietnam: using prisoners for target practice, throwing them out of helicopters, cutting off the ears of dead Viet Cong soldiers, burning villages, and gang-raping women as a matter of course.


To reveal the depth of dishonesty present, Al Hubbard, one of the founders of the VVAW and its Executive Secretary, claimed to be an Air Force pilot, wounded in Viet Nam. In fact, Hubbard was never an officer, never wounded and never in Viet Nam. VVAW members Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam where they routinely killed children and removed body parts as a part of their duty. They were shown to have never been in the Phoenix program nor had they ever been in Viet Nam. And the list of more frauds later found within the organization is mind-boggling.

So this is the organization with which Kerry was associated when he used the “horrible stories” generated by Mark Lane and the VVAW’s “Winter Soldier investigation” as the basis of his Congressional “testimony” later that year, saying at one point:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” [emphasis added]

Not content with this outright lie, he stated further on in his “testimony”:

”It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country: the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions; also the use of weapons, the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions, in the use of free-fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners - accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam.”

This too is a complete and utter lie. For instance, to pretend that torturing or killing prisoners was an “accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam” is to DISHONOR those who served in Vietnam because it requires one to then believe that gross human rights violations were encouraged by the chain-of-command and therefore committed “routinely”,as a matter of policy, by our soldiers.

As Guenter Lewey pointed out in his book “America in Vietnam”,

"Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. “Those responsible were tired and punished. In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" [BG]

We’ve also since learned that John Kerry’s “impassioned” and “impromptu” testimony wasn’t even written by him and certainly, as he claimed, NOT ‘impromptu’.

And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speech writer for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it.[BG]

But that didn’t stop Kerry from mischaracterizing it to Congress:

”I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would like to hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven’t had a great deal of time to prepare.”

So what about the famous “Winter Soldier investigation” which was the basis for Kerry’s testimony?

The same disrespect for the truth was in operation during the Winter Soldier hearings. After all the atrocities were dutifully taken down, the transcript was inserted into the Congressional Record by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, who asked the commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the many crimes, particularly those perpetrated by Marines.
"The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing," said historian Guenter Lewy in his book America in Vietnam. His history of the war was one of the first to rely on previously classified documents in the National Archives. "Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorizes.

One black Marine who testified at Winter Soldier did agree to talk with the investigators. Although he had claimed during the hearing that Vietnam was "one huge atrocity" and a "racist plot," he could provide no details of any actual crimes. Lewy said the question of atrocities had not occurred to the Marine until he left Vietnam. His testimony had been substantially "assisted" by a member of the Nation of Islam.

"But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote, "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.
Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur. "Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. Those responsible were tired and punished.

"In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" Lewy said. Despite the antiwar movement's contention that military policies protecting civilians in Vietnam were routinely ignored, Lewy said the rules of engagement were implemented and taken very seriously, although at times the rules were not communicated properly and the training was inadequate. That's what made the failure so notable. [BG]


Lewey’s findings?

"The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to server the causes of justice and humanity." Lewy wrote. "It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals.”[BG]

Although the “Winter Soldier investigations” were thoroughly discredited, they continued to be used to discredit the Vietnam era military, such as in a 1993 “Newsweek” story by Brownmiller about gang rape by soldiers. They also continue to be the basis for the myths and stereotypes which linger, even today, about Viet Nam veterans.

Bottom Line:

Was John Kerry entitled to protest the war in Viet Nam - Yes.

Was John Kerry’s dissent principled and responsible – NO

It was John Kerry’s responsibility to ensure his dissent was both principled and responsible. He instead participated in a fraud and a sham known as the “Winter Soldier investigation” and then compounded that by using the fraudulent ‘testimony’ from that event as the STATED basis of his testimony to Congress. He made no effort to determine the truth of what he testified to, or if he did, chose to ignore the results. He completely failed the test of 'responsible dissent'.

With his testimony he indicted an entire generation of soldiers as war criminals, committing war crimes “not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”

 

[freedombecki]

SOME INSIGHT INTO WHAT AND WHY
----------
QandO: The Fraud of the Winter Soldier


February 16, 2004

The Fraud of the Winter Soldier
Posted by McQ



Many statements have been made that because John Kerry participated in Viet Nam, he had earned the right to protest the war. I want to say an unequivocal “I agree”. But that being said, I’d agree that ANY American has that right. Dissent is critical to the maintenance of freedom and I’d not deny that right to anyone for any reason.

However, as with any right, there come responsibilities. One of the responsibilities incumbent upon any who dissent is to do so in a PRINCIPLED fashion. It is their right to dissent, but it is their duty to do so responsibly.

THAT is the crux of my problem with John Kerry’s dissent. For the most part it was based on fraud. His dissent was NOT based in truth. His dissent was not conducted responsibly. It was, in my opinion, based on mischaracterization, outright lies, and fraud.

[Much of what I’m going to quote here comes from an excellent book that I urge all to read concerning this specifically and Viet Nam and its veterans in general. The book is “Stolen Valor” by B.G. Burkett. I’ll append “[BG]” after those quotes so excerpted.]

Neil Sheehan, certainly not a proponent of the war in Viet Nam by any stretch, characterized what was going on at that time quite well. Sheehan destroyed the credibility of Mark Lane’s book “Conversations with Americans” by revealing most of the “veterans” who’s “atrocities” Lane quoted hadn’t been in combat or even in Vietnam in many cases :

”This kind of reasoning," Sheehan wrote, "amounts to a new McCarthyism, this time from the left. Any accusation, any innuendo, any rumor, is repeated and published as truth."[BG}

It was, however, Lane’s book which inspired the “Winter Solder investigation”. The major organizers of the so-called “investigation” staged in Detroit in 1971 included Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, Phil Ochs, Graham Nash, David Crosby, Tom Hayden, Daniel Berrigan actor Donald Sutherland and activist lawyer and writer Mark Lane - the same guy who’d already been revealed as a fake. Also deeply involved in the organization of the event was the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) which included John Kerry who was on the VVAW Executive committee.




Kerry hooked up with an organization called Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Two events cooked up by this group went a long way toward cementing in the public mind the image of Vietnam as one big atrocity. The first of these was the January 31, 1971, "Winter Soldier Investigation," organized by "the usual suspects" among antiwar celebrities such as Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, and Kennedy-assassination conspiracy theorist, Mark Lane. Here, individuals purporting to be Vietnam veterans told horrible stories of atrocities in Vietnam: using prisoners for target practice, throwing them out of helicopters, cutting off the ears of dead Viet Cong soldiers, burning villages, and gang-raping women as a matter of course.


To reveal the depth of dishonesty present, Al Hubbard, one of the founders of the VVAW and its Executive Secretary, claimed to be an Air Force pilot, wounded in Viet Nam. In fact, Hubbard was never an officer, never wounded and never in Viet Nam. VVAW members Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam where they routinely killed children and removed body parts as a part of their duty. They were shown to have never been in the Phoenix program nor had they ever been in Viet Nam. And the list of more frauds later found within the organization is mind-boggling.

So this is the organization with which Kerry was associated when he used the “horrible stories” generated by Mark Lane and the VVAW’s “Winter Soldier investigation” as the basis of his Congressional “testimony” later that year, saying at one point:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” [emphasis added]

Not content with this outright lie, he stated further on in his “testimony”:

”It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country: the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions; also the use of weapons, the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions, in the use of free-fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners - accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam.”

This too is a complete and utter lie. For instance, to pretend that torturing or killing prisoners was an “accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam” is to DISHONOR those who served in Vietnam because it requires one to then believe that gross human rights violations were encouraged by the chain-of-command and therefore committed “routinely”,as a matter of policy, by our soldiers.

As Guenter Lewey pointed out in his book “America in Vietnam”,

"Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. “Those responsible were tired and punished. In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" [BG]

We’ve also since learned that John Kerry’s “impassioned” and “impromptu” testimony wasn’t even written by him and certainly, as he claimed, NOT ‘impromptu’.

And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speech writer for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it.[BG]

But that didn’t stop Kerry from mischaracterizing it to Congress:

”I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would like to hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven’t had a great deal of time to prepare.”

So what about the famous “Winter Soldier investigation” which was the basis for Kerry’s testimony?

The same disrespect for the truth was in operation during the Winter Soldier hearings. After all the atrocities were dutifully taken down, the transcript was inserted into the Congressional Record by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, who asked the commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the many crimes, particularly those perpetrated by Marines.
"The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing," said historian Guenter Lewy in his book America in Vietnam. His history of the war was one of the first to rely on previously classified documents in the National Archives. "Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorizes.

One black Marine who testified at Winter Soldier did agree to talk with the investigators. Although he had claimed during the hearing that Vietnam was "one huge atrocity" and a "racist plot," he could provide no details of any actual crimes. Lewy said the question of atrocities had not occurred to the Marine until he left Vietnam. His testimony had been substantially "assisted" by a member of the Nation of Islam.

"But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote, "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.
Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur. "Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. Those responsible were tired and punished.

"In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" Lewy said. Despite the antiwar movement's contention that military policies protecting civilians in Vietnam were routinely ignored, Lewy said the rules of engagement were implemented and taken very seriously, although at times the rules were not communicated properly and the training was inadequate. That's what made the failure so notable. [BG]


Lewey’s findings?

"The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to server the causes of justice and humanity." Lewy wrote. "It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals.”[BG]

Although the “Winter Soldier investigations” were thoroughly discredited, they continued to be used to discredit the Vietnam era military, such as in a 1993 “Newsweek” story by Brownmiller about gang rape by soldiers. They also continue to be the basis for the myths and stereotypes which linger, even today, about Viet Nam veterans.

Bottom Line:

Was John Kerry entitled to protest the war in Viet Nam - Yes.

Was John Kerry’s dissent principled and responsible – NO

It was John Kerry’s responsibility to ensure his dissent was both principled and responsible. He instead participated in a fraud and a sham known as the “Winter Soldier investigation” and then compounded that by using the fraudulent ‘testimony’ from that event as the STATED basis of his testimony to Congress. He made no effort to determine the truth of what he testified to, or if he did, chose to ignore the results. He completely failed the test of 'responsible dissent'.

With his testimony he indicted an entire generation of soldiers as war criminals, committing war crimes “not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”

No wonder the liberals here claim all politicians are liars.

That's all they know. Then, projecting, they pretend others are also, which is not true.

They just fit details around what they want to happen, publish it and get away with it. If they fire out 10 to 40 falsehoods a day, we don't have enough time to get to the bottom of each and every fabrication and verify it and character witnesses who said that person fabricated things in the past with proof.

We're fighting ghosts of lies past, and we can't; they know it.

Time to change the game plan.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Raw Vietnam Combat Footage | Military.com