Monte and Shusha Negotiate a Solution

[Shusha]

We'll have a little of that in a few places. It will be much more difficult, I think, to convince the Jewish Israelis to live in Palestine than the other way around.

Do we offer incentives to move to the other state? Dual citizenship? How would we appease those who got stuck in the "wrong" state?

 

[montelatici]

That's the problem with two states, how do you guarantee safety and rights for the minority in either state? I say the bi-national state is the only solution now.

 

[Shusha]

That's the problem with two states, how do you guarantee safety and rights for the minority in either state?

Well, if you look at the rest of the world, you mostly don't. That's why you have a safe haven for minorities in their own places of self-determination.

 

[montelatici]

The problem is you have too many different people living in the same area. Without a bi-national state you have large portions of the population permanently in an area where they will always be ruled by others. Switzerland has people of 4 different cultures and languages living mostly in their own cantons but some living in other cantons where they are a minority but still feel Swiss.

 

[Phoenall]

I don't believe that a two-state solution can be negotiated. I think that a one-state solution should be put in the mix.

Is this because you want to see the end of Judaism, as you know the arab muslims will never accept the Jews as equal partners

 

[Phoenall]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

How so, explain why only half would be affected ?

 

[Phoenall]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

About half (or more) of all Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine. About 80% of the people in Gaza are refugees. Some of the Gaza natives are internally displaced. Many people in the West Bank are refugees or internally displaced. Most of the Palestinians inside Israel are internally displaced. These are the realities that must be addresses for a just solution.

Then we apply international law and put it in practice, this means that any arab muslim born to refugee parents is not a refugee and live's as a citizen of palestine. Their rights are not affected by this in any shape or form so what is your problem ?

 

[Phoenall]

Wouldn't that just put all of the Palestinians under "Jewish rule"? Do you think the Palestinians would agree to that under current conditions?

The WB and EJ Palestinians would, with the Israeli Arabs, form a large voting block in parliament and could influence legislation that would increase their rights within the bi-national state. They would feel enfranchised and if the state is bi-national they would have no reason to attack it. The Gazans are the bigger problem

I agree EJ Palestinians, for the most part would go for it. Not convinced about the rest. And at least theoretically they wouldn't need to have their rights increased, becoming Israeli citizens. What rights would you imagine they would want to change?

What happens when the Jews come to pray on the Temple Mount?

It just seems awfully naive to think that we can just put an AP symbol on the flag, rename the place The United State of Israel and Palestine and call her done.

I suspect that praying on Temple Mount with some conditions would be a negotiating point that the WB and EJ Palestinians would agree to if they were enfranchised. The idea of a bi-national state with Palestine being one of them is a big draw, I think.

This was the case in 1967 when Israel agreed to allow the muslims control of the Temple mount, why did it fail ?

 

[Phoenall]

A two state solution only addresses the rights of less then half of the Palestinians.

I'm not sure I understand. Please elaborate.

About half (or more) of all Palestinians live outside of historic Palestine. About 80% of the people in Gaza are refugees. Some of the Gaza natives are internally displaced. Many people in the West Bank are refugees or internally displaced. Most of the Palestinians inside Israel are internally displaced. These are the realities that must be addresses for a just solution.

I agree all those things should be on the table for discussion.

These are the rights of displaced people. Why would rights be up to discussion?

Exactly what rights are these, and they have to be actual legal rights and not failed laws that were never put in place ?

 

[Phoenall]

These are the rights of displaced people. Why would rights be up to discussion?

Its a thread to negotiate the solution to the conflict. I agree the issues you brought up must be considered. I will ensure they will be.

If you want to rehash the whole "rights" thing go piss on another thread.

Protect the rights of the Jews and ignore the rights of the Palestinians.

At least we know where you are going with this.

So you have not seen monte's side of the argument then puts the arab muslims rights first before even thinking about those of the Jews. As we keep saying you are blind to everything but attacking the Jews

 

[Phoenall]

montelatici

How do you feel about not considering Gaza's incorporation into the United State of Israel and Palestine until there has been a period of time with no belligerent actions? Say one year of peace before the four year countdown.

Acceptable

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici

How do you feel about not considering Gaza's incorporation into the United State of Israel and Palestine until there has been a period of time with no belligerent actions? Say one year of peace before the four year countdown.

Acceptable

Of course Israel would have to stop its belligerence at the same time.

 

[SAYIT]

Some things to think about:entrenching language, holidays and other cultural aspects into law, preserving the Jewish right of return

Like Belgium both languages will have to be official. Eventually English will be the lingua franca anyway. Holidays, Christian, Jewish and Muslim will have to be agreed to...

Well done kids. Of course, hashing this out in real time may prove far more difficult (and far more contentious) than on our keyboards. Believing that the parties would be of good-will and act in good faith may be a bit naive. Still, as some semblance of normalcy takes root - as evidenced over the past decade in the WB - they may find enough common ground and convergence of interests to make their codification a real possibility.

I would point out that both Hebrew and Arabic are already the official languages of Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

montelatici

How do you feel about not considering Gaza's incorporation into the United State of Israel and Palestine until there has been a period of time with no belligerent actions? Say one year of peace before the four year countdown.

Acceptable

Of course Israel would have to stop its belligerence at the same time.

What belligerence is that, as there has been no accusations of Israeli belligerence by any authority.

You should really learn to show what you mean before jumping in with both feet

 

[Shusha]

Okay....so back to borders.

We agree on contiguity, loosely based on population and referendum vote for border population centers, yes?

Do we want to map it out or are we content with just describing the parameters?

 

[montelatici]

I think trying to map it would reveal the insurmountable difficulties. But why don't you give it a shot since you said you were looking at the maps.

 

[Shusha]

How about something like this:

(Just the map, not the interpretations on the left)

 

[montelatici]

What about the Northern District (Nazareth) where the Arabs are the majority?

 

[Shusha]

What about the Northern District (Nazareth) where the Arabs are the majority?

Yep. I was going to add that in too. Hang on....more map seeking.

 

[Shusha]

How about this one?

So, I would think all the border areas in the north would go to Palestine. But the areas in further north would have to stay in Israel. Also we have to discuss Hebron.