CDZ Minimum Wage Madness

[320 Years of History]

You can't be serious. Truly, you can't be serious.
If a family of 4 shops smartly they could easily live on $35,000 a year, in most locales in the US, without help.
They could even wear brand names!

That chart is a joke, and nothing more. Those in poverty in the US have internet, food stamps to fill their bellies, 2 meals a day supplied by schools, and summer programs, refrigerators, tv, cell phones, clothes on their back, healthcare, subsidized housing, subsidized utilities, free prescriptions. And charities that will help supply other needs Federal guidelines for WIC assistance alone for this yearks a family of 4 can make up to $45,000 a year and receive benefits from it! They can own a home, a lot, own a vehicle up to a certain value, have cash of up to $2250 in a checking account, have pension income which is not included in the guidelines. Do you know what the median wage is? $53,000. So, to say those making $45 grand a year that then can qualify for anywhere from $6-$10 grand in welfare benefits, is not in true poverty.

Say what?

Red:
That's all well and good, TODAY. What are they supposed to do when they are old and still impoverished? More importantly, and not that the minimum wage is going to provide the solution, why should there be anyone impoverished in the U.S? I think that last question points toward what the other member was getting at, but I could be mistaken.

Blue:
Well, were charitable contributions enough, I suspect we wouldn't observe poverty in the U.S. There's clearly a gap somewhere.

Green:
Where can family of four live on $45K/year and not be impoverished? Where I live, that's exactly what they'd be, benefits or no benefits. Maybe that's not so for such a family living on the side of a mountain in Kentucky, but in any metropolitan area, it certainly will be so. Heck, anywhere in the Eastern Megalopolis, one could give that family of four $10K more and bring their household income to $55K/year and they still would live in poverty; it'd just be less poverty than at $45K/year.

I am entirely serious.

$55K/year ($45K wages + $10K WIC subsidy) = 4600/month before taxes in D.C. or D.C. Metropolitan area

Roughly speaking, one can expect to have minimum expenses of ~$4300, and that's before paying for the roof over one's head which had better be free because there are no places for rent or purchase in the D.C. area that cost just $300/month and that will accommodate a family of four.

Will the Philly or Boston or any other Eastern Megalopolis areas be somewhat better? Sure a little bit, except for NYC, but not break even better, and certainly not "save something each month to have a pittance for retirement" better.

P.S.
I chose the $4300/month site because it's at least liberal in it's assumptions, but most importantly, it's pretty spot on for rent. A more conservative cost estimate would present higher figures for things like transportation, utilities, and whatnot...the ones given would be correct for a lustrum or two ago

 

[320 Years of History]

Where can family of four live on $45K/year and not be impoverished? Where I live, that's exactly what they'd be, benefits or no benefits. Maybe that's not so for such a family living on the side of a mountain in Kentucky, but in any metropolitan area, it certainly will be so. Heck, anywhere in the Eastern Megalopolis, one could give that family of four $10K more and bring their household income to $55K/year and they still would live in poverty; it'd just be less poverty than at $45K/year.

Get real. While a lot of people, maybe most, live in a metro area, many do not. If you are not able to live the lifestyle you want in the place you live, move. I did, it was not easy, it was not cheap, but I did it because that is what I had to do to live like I want to.

"Move" is a great idea/suggestion until you realize than unless you, oldsoul, give that family of four the money to move, they have no way to move because they can't afford it.

 

[320 Years of History]

What a laugh you are! Did anyone hold a gun to these peoples heads to accept the wages these fast food places can sustain?

If your business plan involves paying slave wages then you dont deserve anything. In fact you are making it worse for legit concerns who pay more. Its a race to the bottom.

Its possible that these people might struggle to get other jobs. They still need to be protected from those who would exploit them. Its a huge issue in the UK and a ticking bomb.

Frankly, I don't really give a damn if it is a huge problem in the UK. I live on the other side of the pond. What is an issue in Europe, may not be an issue here.
As for these people needing to be "protected" from "exploitation", what of the people who provide jobs? Are they not equally in need of protection from exploitation by the government, special interest lobbyists, and anti-business groups?
I have to side with those who are providing the jobs, they don't have to, they could just put the money into other investments and sit at home while someone else does the work. Instead, they choose to do something that helps the local economy, helps themselves, and provides jobs to those who may not otherwise have them. If that is exploitation, then I am fine with it.

We need the state to protect us from the exploiters. Without state protection we would be eating grass and living in caves. Low wages increase the welfare bill and we all end up paying for that.

For those of us too dumb, uneducated and/or unwilling to protect ourselves, you are correct. For the rest of us, the government is not helping, it is rather getting in the way. You seem to be of the beleif that those people on the low end of the pay scale cannot, for whatever reason, look out for their own best interests. I beleive that they can, and if given the chance(as well as the expectation), they will.
Entry-level positions(those most likely to be at or near minimum-wage), should not be the career goal of any person. They are great for gaining experience and therefore being able to advance into better paying jobs/positions. To argue that these jobs should pay enough for a person to build a life and career around them is assinine at best.

You and I just discussed the degree to which our society is poorly informed. Do you think that lower income folks, particularly those below or near poverty, are any better informed than are the ignorant folks who aren't struggling day by day? The dichotomy between your remarks there and here astounds me. How can we have a society of poorly informed folks and not have that affliction apply to low income or impoverished folks too? Wouldn't they be just as susceptible, perhaps more so, as society's typical middle class ignoramus?

Of course, there are reasons why some, perhaps many, poor folks cannot reliably and consistently make sound or high quality decisions. To your point immediately above, however, outright stupidity isn't necessarily one of those reasons.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

The need for fast food workers to depend on that job for a living is a failure of the education system.

California just raised its minimum wage from $9 to $10 per hour and restaurants are already raising menu prices in response to this increase. The same people who argued a month ago that it would have no effect on prices now acknowledge this result as if it was expected all along, while continuing to push for a $15 per hour "living" wage on the basis of "fairness." Don't they understand this will require yet another hidden tax on consumers?.

What is wrong with these people? They are not stupid, but they consistently deny the reality of cause and effect until after their schemes have been implemented. Only then do they accept the consequences as if they had been inevitable from the beginning.

Is this due to deceit, willful ignorance or something else? Do they find the real world so abhorrent that they must live in an alternate reality of wishful thinking? Is reasoned debate possible with these people?

The need to impose a minimum wage is another failure of the free market.

Perhaps the owners could take just a little less profit ?

A great meme.

 

[xband]

Not that long ago I was shopping in the Kroger store in Ohio and the loudspeaker came on saying we are hiring starting at $17.26 per hour. I like to cook my own food because I know how it was prepared. The fools are pricing themselves out of the hamburger flipping market.

 

[Wyatt earp]

What a laugh you are! Did anyone hold a gun to these peoples heads to accept the wages these fast food places can sustain?

Perhaps you would like to run a business with a 3% profit margin?

If your business plan involves paying slave wages then you dont deserve anything. In fact you are making it worse for legit concerns who pay more. Its a race to the bottom.

Its possible that these people might struggle to get other jobs. They still need to be protected from those who would exploit them. Its a huge issue in the UK and a ticking bomb.

Frankly, I don't really give a damn if it is a huge problem in the UK. I live on the other side of the pond. What is an issue in Europe, may not be an issue here.
As for these people needing to be "protected" from "exploitation", what of the people who provide jobs? Are they not equally in need of protection from exploitation by the government, special interest lobbyists, and anti-business groups?
I have to side with those who are providing the jobs, they don't have to, they could just put the money into other investments and sit at home while someone else does the work. Instead, they choose to do something that helps the local economy, helps themselves, and provides jobs to those who may not otherwise have them. If that is exploitation, then I am fine with it.

We need the state to protect us from the exploiters. Without state protection we would be eating grass and living in caves. Low wages increase the welfare bill and we all end up paying for that.

Say what? Low wages increase the welfare bill?

Wonder what would happen to the welfare bill if the low wage jobs disappear ?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

What a laugh you are! Did anyone hold a gun to these peoples heads to accept the wages these fast food places can sustain?

If your business plan involves paying slave wages then you dont deserve anything. In fact you are making it worse for legit concerns who pay more. Its a race to the bottom.

Its possible that these people might struggle to get other jobs. They still need to be protected from those who would exploit them. Its a huge issue in the UK and a ticking bomb.

Frankly, I don't really give a damn if it is a huge problem in the UK. I live on the other side of the pond. What is an issue in Europe, may not be an issue here.
As for these people needing to be "protected" from "exploitation", what of the people who provide jobs? Are they not equally in need of protection from exploitation by the government, special interest lobbyists, and anti-business groups?
I have to side with those who are providing the jobs, they don't have to, they could just put the money into other investments and sit at home while someone else does the work. Instead, they choose to do something that helps the local economy, helps themselves, and provides jobs to those who may not otherwise have them. If that is exploitation, then I am fine with it.

We need the state to protect us from the exploiters. Without state protection we would be eating grass and living in caves. Low wages increase the welfare bill and we all end up paying for that.

Say what? Low wages increase the welfare bill?

Wonder what would happen to the welfare bill if the low wage jobs disappear ?

The UK has just cottoned on to this.

This is how it works.

People on low pay can get other benefits to enable them to feed their kids and keep a roof over their head. Our incredibly thick govt has just realised that the tax payer is basically subsidising greedy businesses. So they have started to raise the minimum wage. As the minimum wage rises the welfare cost goes down.

And this after being totally opposed to the introduction of the minimum wage.

Business owners are always keen on government handouts to swell their profits.

I think I can summarise your argument as these jobs would disappear if the minimum wage was raised. This has not been the case in the UK.

Hope this explains my point.

 

[JoeMoma]

Liberals vote in representatives that implement wealth redistributive programs such as welfare. A progressive tax system is used to pay for such programs along with deficit spending. Both unemployed people and low skilled employed people who make low wages qualify for the wealth redistribution programs. Then the liberals argue that businesses that pay lost wages are benifiting from the wealth distribution programs and demand an increase in minimum wage, which will result in increased unemployment. Anyone else see the irony?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Liberals vote in representatives that implement wealth redistributive programs such as welfare. A progressive tax system is used to pay for such programs along with deficit spending. Both unemployed people and low skilled employed people who make low wages qualify for the wealth redistribution programs. Then the liberals argue that businesses that pay lost wages are benifiting from the wealth distribution programs and demand an increase in minimum wage, which will result in increased unemployment. Anyone else see the irony?

The biggest beneficiaries of the tax system are the large corporations. Google,Amazon, Ebay and so on.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

U.S. has one of the highest levels of wage disparity among the world's rich countries, while tiny Slovenia tops the charts for equal pay

Hand in hand with low wages comes growing income inequality. Where does the money come from to pay bloated wages for the bosses ? Yup - its not hard to guess.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

[/URL][/IMG] I hope you dont find this graph too complicated. The rich get richer.................whilst the poor squabble amongst themselves over a few bob.

 

[320 Years of History]

Not that long ago I was shopping in the Kroger store in Ohio and the loudspeaker came on saying we are hiring starting at $17.26 per hour. I like to cook my own food because I know how it was prepared. The fools are pricing themselves out of the hamburger flipping market.

??? What if they don't any longer want to be in the "hamburger flipping" market?

 

[JoeMoma]

Liberals vote in representatives that implement wealth redistributive programs such as welfare. A progressive tax system is used to pay for such programs along with deficit spending. Both unemployed people and low skilled employed people who make low wages qualify for the wealth redistribution programs. Then the liberals argue that businesses that pay lost wages are benifiting from the wealth distribution programs and demand an increase in minimum wage, which will result in increased unemployment. Anyone else see the irony?

The biggest beneficiaries of the tax system are the large corporations. Google,Amazon, Ebay and so on.

What percentage of Google's, Amazon's and Ebay's employees are minimum wage? I doubt Google and EBay have employees that earn minimum wage, unless it a janitor that cleans an office area.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Liberals vote in representatives that implement wealth redistributive programs such as welfare. A progressive tax system is used to pay for such programs along with deficit spending. Both unemployed people and low skilled employed people who make low wages qualify for the wealth redistribution programs. Then the liberals argue that businesses that pay lost wages are benifiting from the wealth distribution programs and demand an increase in minimum wage, which will result in increased unemployment. Anyone else see the irony?

The biggest beneficiaries of the tax system are the large corporations. Google,Amazon, Ebay and so on.

What percentage of Google's, Amazon's and Ebay's employees are minimum wage? I doubt Google and EBay have employees that earn minimum wage, unless it a janitor that cleans an office area.

I dont know what they pay offhand although Amazon have a pretty poor reputation. They make their money through tax avoidance. typically setting up a nameplate office in Ireland or Luxembourg to avoid paying uk tax. In that way they can benefit from the results of UK tax spend, roads, utiliites,education,health, defence,police and so on, without the trouble of actually contributing.
There is a list of the companies here. Corporate welfare scroungers to a man.

Company tax avoidance rankings

Google, Amazon, Starbucks: The rise of 'tax shaming' - BBC News

More reading here.
Tax avoidance | Business | The Guardian

 

[sartre play]

Perhaps you would like to run a business with a 3% profit margin?

The need for fast food workers to depend on that job for a living is a failure of the education system.

California just raised its minimum wage from $9 to $10 per hour and restaurants are already raising menu prices in response to this increase. The same people who argued a month ago that it would have no effect on prices now acknowledge this result as if it was expected all along, while continuing to push for a $15 per hour "living" wage on the basis of "fairness." Don't they understand this will require yet another hidden tax on consumers?.

What is wrong with these people? They are not stupid, but they consistently deny the reality of cause and effect until after their schemes have been implemented. Only then do they accept the consequences as if they had been inevitable from the beginning.

Is this due to deceit, willful ignorance or something else? Do they find the real world so abhorrent that they must live in an alternate reality of wishful thinking? Is reasoned debate possible with these people?

The need to impose a minimum wage is another failure of the free market.

Perhaps the owners could take just a little less profit ?

 

[sartre play]

Perhaps you would like to run a business with a 3% profit margin?

The need for fast food workers to depend on that job for a living is a failure of the education system.

California just raised its minimum wage from $9 to $10 per hour and restaurants are already raising menu prices in response to this increase. The same people who argued a month ago that it would have no effect on prices now acknowledge this result as if it was expected all along, while continuing to push for a $15 per hour "living" wage on the basis of "fairness." Don't they understand this will require yet another hidden tax on consumers?.

What is wrong with these people? They are not stupid, but they consistently deny the reality of cause and effect until after their schemes have been implemented. Only then do they accept the consequences as if they had been inevitable from the beginning.

Is this due to deceit, willful ignorance or something else? Do they find the real world so abhorrent that they must live in an alternate reality of wishful thinking? Is reasoned debate possible with these people?

The need to impose a minimum wage is another failure of the free market.

Perhaps the owners could take just a little less profit ?

What a laugh you are! Did anyone hold a gun to these peoples heads to accept the wages these fast food places can sustain?

Perhaps you would like to run a business with a 3% profit margin?

The need for fast food workers to depend on that job for a living is a failure of the education system.

California just raised its minimum wage from $9 to $10 per hour and restaurants are already raising menu prices in response to this increase. The same people who argued a month ago that it would have no effect on prices now acknowledge this result as if it was expected all along, while continuing to push for a $15 per hour "living" wage on the basis of "fairness." Don't they understand this will require yet another hidden tax on consumers?.

What is wrong with these people? They are not stupid, but they consistently deny the reality of cause and effect until after their schemes have been implemented. Only then do they accept the consequences as if they had been inevitable from the beginning.

Is this due to deceit, willful ignorance or something else? Do they find the real world so abhorrent that they must live in an alternate reality of wishful thinking? Is reasoned debate possible with these people?

The need to impose a minimum wage is another failure of the free market.

Perhaps the owners could take just a little less profit ?

If your business plan involves paying slave wages then you dont deserve anything. In fact you are making it worse for legit concerns who pay more. Its a race to the bottom.

 

[sartre play]

Is that "other" $193,965 the salary the owner takes????

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Is that "other" $193,965 the salary the owner takes????

I guess that they actually take a sizeable wedge out of the wages cost line.

 

[JoeMoma]

Is that "other" $193,965 the salary the owner takes????

It's probably how much the pay their accountants to keep all their profits from being eaten up by taxes.

 

[Agit8r]

The historic minimum wage has been just over $9 in today's money. Unfortunately the minimum wage is only that high in the very most expensive states to live in, and not even all of them.