Local Pennsylvania bridal shop harassed and threatened by LGBT activist after turning away same sex

[rightwinger]

I think people know this goes on in the Muslim world, but this is about the US and the US Constitution. So why would you bring up the Muslim world?

I'm just putting things in perspective. My point was to illustrate how Christians are vilified in this country for things like this whereas Muslims get a free pass. If we look at this objectively and pull back to look at the big picture, what the bridal shop owners did seems trivial by comparison.

Well, that depends on how you feel like looking at it.

I see it from the point of view that people should be able to live in their own country as an equal, and not have a caste system imposed.

Again, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I don't get the impression that they want to relegate gays to some lower social standard. At least not in this particular case. All they did was refuse to make a wedding cake for them.

I don't see Muslims get a free pass, I see people manipulating the media and readers who pick and choose what they see and don't see.

Steven Crowder has a show on crtv.com, a conservative website, called Louder With Crowder. He posted a video of him and a friend going to various Muslim bakeries in Dearborn Michigan and requesting a gay wedding cake. He doesn't say how many shops he went to but he did say that "a lot of them" agreed to do it but at the same time, "a lot of them" would not. The video shows at least three different Muslim bakeries refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

So I would say that yes, Muslims get a free pass on this one. I don't know of any cases where Muslim businesses actually refused service to gay couples but at least we know now there are some who won't.

I think people know this goes on in the Muslim world, but this is about the US and the US Constitution. So why would you bring up the Muslim world?

I'm just putting things in perspective. My point was to illustrate how Christians are vilified in this country for things like this whereas Muslims get a free pass. If we look at this objectively and pull back to look at the big picture, what the bridal shop owners did seems trivial by comparison.

Well, that depends on how you feel like looking at it.

I see it from the point of view that people should be able to live in their own country as an equal, and not have a caste system imposed.

Again, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I don't get the impression that they want to relegate gays to some lower social standard. At least not in this particular case. All they did was refuse to make a wedding cake for them.

I don't see Muslims get a free pass, I see people manipulating the media and readers who pick and choose what they see and don't see.

Steven Crowder has a show on crtv.com, a conservative website, called Louder With Crowder. He posted a video of him and a friend going to various Muslim bakeries in Dearborn Michigan and requesting a gay wedding cake. He doesn't say how many shops he went to but he did say that "a lot of them" agreed to do it but at the same time, "a lot of them" would not. The video shows at least three different Muslim bakeries refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

So I would say that yes, Muslims get a free pass on this one. I don't know of any cases where Muslim businesses actually refused service to gay couples but at least we know now there are some who won't.

The difference is that gays were discriminated against and sued under existing laws and won

Crowder did not sue and would lose anyway because he is not gay and was running a scam

Oh for Christ's sake. There are Muslim bakeries that would refuse to bake a wedding cake for gay couples. That was his point and there's no getting around that.

If that is the case, they are subject to the same laws

Why don’t you sue them? That is what gays had to do when they were discriminated against

Muslims do not like gays either is not an excuse

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

What does this topic have to do with Muslims anyway? It's about a bridal shop talking about "religious rights" to not serve a gay couple.

What I wonder ... in situations like this ... are "religious rights" being stretched to the point of being meaningless? You might not personally approve of same sex marriage...but there is nothing in doctrine specifically denouncing it.

Here is one side of the problem. A wonderful friend of mine, in fact - the woman who got my dog Cowboy back on his feet and walking - is a lesbian. She and her long term partner were finally able to be married when their state's laws changed. They did and invited me. It was a lovely ceremony but I noted that there was a very last minute change of venue...and a few other last minute changes. And the reason was...you guessed.

So...what does a couple do when confronted by discrimination disguised as religious freedom? It's not like they can go into a bridal shop and know ahead of time it won't serve same sex couples. No. Instead they face the humiliation of being told - nicely - we don't serve your kind.

I'll add that I don't approve of gay couples DELIBRATEY trying to create a situation by going somewhere they KNOW won't serve them and setting them up. That isn't right either.

But my friend when through a lot of small and big hurts for her wedding - the greatest day of her life with the love of her life. She shouldn't have had to.

And that is the hidden purpose of these claims

After years of fighting, the religious right lost on same sex marriage
Not being able to stop the marriage, the next available option is to harass same sex couples. No wedding venue, photographs, cakes, honeymoon suites ........all in the name of religious freedom

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I'm just putting things in perspective. My point was to illustrate how Christians are vilified in this country for things like this whereas Muslims get a free pass. If we look at this objectively and pull back to look at the big picture, what the bridal shop owners did seems trivial by comparison.

Well, that depends on how you feel like looking at it.

I see it from the point of view that people should be able to live in their own country as an equal, and not have a caste system imposed.

Again, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I don't get the impression that they want to relegate gays to some lower social standard. At least not in this particular case. All they did was refuse to make a wedding cake for them.

I don't see Muslims get a free pass, I see people manipulating the media and readers who pick and choose what they see and don't see.

Steven Crowder has a show on crtv.com, a conservative website, called Louder With Crowder. He posted a video of him and a friend going to various Muslim bakeries in Dearborn Michigan and requesting a gay wedding cake. He doesn't say how many shops he went to but he did say that "a lot of them" agreed to do it but at the same time, "a lot of them" would not. The video shows at least three different Muslim bakeries refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

So I would say that yes, Muslims get a free pass on this one. I don't know of any cases where Muslim businesses actually refused service to gay couples but at least we know now there are some who won't.

I'm just putting things in perspective. My point was to illustrate how Christians are vilified in this country for things like this whereas Muslims get a free pass. If we look at this objectively and pull back to look at the big picture, what the bridal shop owners did seems trivial by comparison.

Well, that depends on how you feel like looking at it.

I see it from the point of view that people should be able to live in their own country as an equal, and not have a caste system imposed.

Again, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I don't get the impression that they want to relegate gays to some lower social standard. At least not in this particular case. All they did was refuse to make a wedding cake for them.

I don't see Muslims get a free pass, I see people manipulating the media and readers who pick and choose what they see and don't see.

Steven Crowder has a show on crtv.com, a conservative website, called Louder With Crowder. He posted a video of him and a friend going to various Muslim bakeries in Dearborn Michigan and requesting a gay wedding cake. He doesn't say how many shops he went to but he did say that "a lot of them" agreed to do it but at the same time, "a lot of them" would not. The video shows at least three different Muslim bakeries refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

So I would say that yes, Muslims get a free pass on this one. I don't know of any cases where Muslim businesses actually refused service to gay couples but at least we know now there are some who won't.

The difference is that gays were discriminated against and sued under existing laws and won

Crowder did not sue and would lose anyway because he is not gay and was running a scam

Oh for Christ's sake. There are Muslim bakeries that would refuse to bake a wedding cake for gay couples. That was his point and there's no getting around that.

If that is the case, they are subject to the same laws

Why don’t you sue them? That is what gays had to do when they were discriminated against

Muslims do not like gays either is not an excuse

Not being sued for it is not an excuse either.

 

[rightwinger]

And that is the hidden purpose of these claims

After years of fighting, the religious right lost on same sex marriage
Not being able to stop the marriage, the next available option is to harass same sex couples. No wedding venue, photographs, cakes, honeymoon suites ........all in the name of religious freedom

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Christians are the ones taking their right to discriminate to the Supreme Court

That is why we are talking about Christians

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Christians are the ones taking their right to discriminate to the Supreme Court

That is why we are talking about Christians

It doesn't change the fact that they are disproportionately criticized for what people deem to be discrimination when everyone knows that Muslims feel the same way about gays.

 

[Tilly]

I'm just putting things in perspective. My point was to illustrate how Christians are vilified in this country for things like this whereas Muslims get a free pass. If we look at this objectively and pull back to look at the big picture, what the bridal shop owners did seems trivial by comparison.

Well, that depends on how you feel like looking at it.

I see it from the point of view that people should be able to live in their own country as an equal, and not have a caste system imposed.

Again, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I don't get the impression that they want to relegate gays to some lower social standard. At least not in this particular case. All they did was refuse to make a wedding cake for them.

I don't see Muslims get a free pass, I see people manipulating the media and readers who pick and choose what they see and don't see.

Steven Crowder has a show on crtv.com, a conservative website, called Louder With Crowder. He posted a video of him and a friend going to various Muslim bakeries in Dearborn Michigan and requesting a gay wedding cake. He doesn't say how many shops he went to but he did say that "a lot of them" agreed to do it but at the same time, "a lot of them" would not. The video shows at least three different Muslim bakeries refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

So I would say that yes, Muslims get a free pass on this one. I don't know of any cases where Muslim businesses actually refused service to gay couples but at least we know now there are some who won't.

I'm just putting things in perspective. My point was to illustrate how Christians are vilified in this country for things like this whereas Muslims get a free pass. If we look at this objectively and pull back to look at the big picture, what the bridal shop owners did seems trivial by comparison.

Well, that depends on how you feel like looking at it.

I see it from the point of view that people should be able to live in their own country as an equal, and not have a caste system imposed.

Again, you're blowing this way out of proportion. I don't get the impression that they want to relegate gays to some lower social standard. At least not in this particular case. All they did was refuse to make a wedding cake for them.

I don't see Muslims get a free pass, I see people manipulating the media and readers who pick and choose what they see and don't see.

Steven Crowder has a show on crtv.com, a conservative website, called Louder With Crowder. He posted a video of him and a friend going to various Muslim bakeries in Dearborn Michigan and requesting a gay wedding cake. He doesn't say how many shops he went to but he did say that "a lot of them" agreed to do it but at the same time, "a lot of them" would not. The video shows at least three different Muslim bakeries refusing to make a gay wedding cake.

So I would say that yes, Muslims get a free pass on this one. I don't know of any cases where Muslim businesses actually refused service to gay couples but at least we know now there are some who won't.

The difference is that gays were discriminated against and sued under existing laws and won

Crowder did not sue and would lose anyway because he is not gay and was running a scam

Oh for Christ's sake. There are Muslim bakeries that would refuse to bake a wedding cake for gay couples. That was his point and there's no getting around that.

If that is the case, they are subject to the same laws

Why don’t you sue them? That is what gays had to do when they were discriminated against

Muslims do not like gays either is not an excuse

The question is why are the LGBTQ brigade ignoring the fact that Muslims are denying service and only going after Christians?
If the principle is so important to them they’d be going after WHOEVER is ‘discriminating’ against them, but no, they give muslims who deny service a free pass. Clearly it’s all part of their Christianophobic agenda.

 

[Tilly]

And that is the hidden purpose of these claims

After years of fighting, the religious right lost on same sex marriage
Not being able to stop the marriage, the next available option is to harass same sex couples. No wedding venue, photographs, cakes, honeymoon suites ........all in the name of religious freedom

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

 

[Tilly]

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Christians are the ones taking their right to discriminate to the Supreme Court

That is why we are talking about Christians

It doesn't change the fact that they are disproportionately criticized for what people deem to be discrimination when everyone knows that Muslims feel the same way about gays.

And act on it.

 

[rightwinger]

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Christians are the ones taking their right to discriminate to the Supreme Court

That is why we are talking about Christians

It doesn't change the fact that they are disproportionately criticized for what people deem to be discrimination when everyone knows that Muslims feel the same way about gays.

You are allowed to feel any way you want
But it is actions done as part of your business that draw criticism

Christians are using their religious beliefs as an excuse for violating the law

 

[rightwinger]

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

 

[Tilly]

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

The links are already in this thread and you chose to ignore them. Go look for them if you’re actually genuinely interested in honest debate (highly doubtful indeed).

 

[rightwinger]

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

The links are already in this thread and you chose to ignore them. Go look for them if you’re actually genuinely interested in honest debate (highly doubtful indeed).

They were phony video setups that were never prosecuted

Show me a real one

 

[Tilly]

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

The links are already in this thread and you chose to ignore them. Go look for them if you’re actually genuinely interested in honest debate (highly doubtful indeed).

They were phony video setups that were never prosecuted

Show me a real one

Sure. So you’re simply being dishonest and playing games again, as usual.
Well you can go play with yourself from now on.

 

[rightwinger]

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

The links are already in this thread and you chose to ignore them. Go look for them if you’re actually genuinely interested in honest debate (highly doubtful indeed).

They were phony video setups that were never prosecuted

Show me a real one

Sure. So you’re simply being dishonest and playing games again, as usual.
Well you can go play with yourself from now on.

No, your antimuslim smears are dishonest

 

[Coyote]

And that is the hidden purpose of these claims

After years of fighting, the religious right lost on same sex marriage
Not being able to stop the marriage, the next available option is to harass same sex couples. No wedding venue, photographs, cakes, honeymoon suites ........all in the name of religious freedom

I remember reading an article years ago (National Geographic I believe) about the adoption of Sharia law in a certain sector or area in Indonesia. There were officers that patrolled the streets and made sure Sharia law was followed and that everyone dressed and behaved properly. One of the Muslims they talked to said it would not apply to non-Muslims. At the time I read the article I knew it would just be a matter of time. Well, Lo and behold, a news story comes up about two Christians being publicly caned for playing a children's game that was banned for violating Sharia law.

If you ever get the silly notion that Muslims don't force their religion on others, just remember this story.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Of course it is wrong. Did you see where I said if they are Muslim they need to comply the same standards? Same with Jews. Same with Hindus. Same with athiests.

 

[Coyote]

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

The links are already in this thread and you chose to ignore them. Go look for them if you’re actually genuinely interested in honest debate (highly doubtful indeed).

They were phony video setups that were never prosecuted

Show me a real one

What people don't understand in making these comparisons is that WHERE the conflict occurs determines what does or doesnt get prosecuted because these are state and locsl laws not federal. So a wedding cake baker may get prosecuted in Colorado under its antidiscrimination laws but a muslim baker in Michigan doesnt because the laws are different not because of the individual's religion.

 

[Coyote]

Not necessarily. It depends on what you're offended about. Being offended seems to be the butthurt du jour these days. Everybody's offended by everything and most often for no other reason than because it's what everybody's doing. Besides, if we give being offended the due consideration you think we should, then we also have to consider that the shop owners are offended by homosexuality and the idea of gay marriage. Had you even thought about that? If the gays do not give equal consideration to the shop owners for their being offended then the gays' righteous chest beating doesn't mean shit.

No, they were not. Being abusive, by definition, is berating the other person and insulting them. All they did was refuse their business to the couple.

According to the article at Huffpost, the shop owner was quoted as saying to the couple: "I don’t know if you’ve heard, but we’re Christian and we don’t believe in that; our faith doesn’t let us believe in that." After that, the gay couple simply left the shop and nothing else was said between them.

I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like abusiveness to me.

The problem with your sentence "Being offended seems to be the butthurt du jour these days." is you're being offended that people are being offended. Ironic, huh?

There's a difference between being irritated and being offended. Don't confuse the two. I'm not offended by all this, I just think it's stupid.

Yes, some people are offended simply for the sake of being offended, and yes, it's kind of annoying.

Other people are offended, or feign offence, because they want the society they live in to be a BETTER PLACE.

Then again, some people just want society to change to suit their special needs. "I'm twenty five years old and still don't know what gender I am so I am offended that I can't use the ladies' room today and the mens' room tomorrow."

I'd much rather live in a society where everyone gets along, rather than a society where everyone is going around treating each other badly and getting away with it with bullshit excuses like "this is what I believe".

Usually when someone says "believe", you know it's bullshit.

You may be right about that but the thing is, people of faith are not the only ones who say "I believe...".

Yes, the shop owners might be offended by the gay people. That's fine. However they have chosen to be shop owners. They could have chosen not be shop owners.

That's true. But in their eyes, the gay couple could have chosen not to be gay. I don't agree with that myself but it's what they honestly believe.

Well, refusing to serve someone because of how they were born is berating them.

No, it's not. Webster's defines "Berate" as: "To scold and condemn vehemently and at length". So no, the shop owner did not berate them.

Who wouldn't want society to suit their needs? Isn't that what voting is for?

I said "special needs" and I gave an example. I'm sorry, but I don't think society should be held hostage because some twit is confused about what gender he/she/it is.

Then there's the case of the black woman suing Wal-Mart because she was offended by the fact that the store had black hair care products in a locked case and then escorted her to the checkout like she was a criminal. Thing is, Wal-Mart and other stores put items that are often shoplifted in locked cases such as electronics and even razor blades as a loss prevention measure. What's more, she most likely knew this.

Then there was the case where someone took a picture of a vase that had cotton plants in it at Hobby Lobby, called it racist and posted it on social media.

The point is, while sometimes people are offended for legitimate reasons, a lot of times it's for stupid shit like this. Where does it end? Being offended has become a license to stop the world just because some powderpuff got his tender widdle feelings hurt.

No, they're not. Religious people are brought up to believe, rather than think. Other people just do it because society is trained towards this, rather than towards thinking.

Look at those on the right who see education as "indoctrination". In part education has to be indoctrination, you have to learn stuff, and when science is competing with made up religious stuff, then what?

It's all indoctrination if the truth is scorned.

Exactly. That's why people like myself have been pushing for more critical thinking skills for the last 15 - 20 years or so.

Well, whether the people in the bridal shop believe something or not is neither here nor there really. What they should KNOW is that there are laws. They don't have to like the laws, they don't even have to follow them, but they do have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

Yes, there are laws. But I'm not sure they apply in this case. The shop owner is bound by law not to discriminate against gays when hiring or employing but I'm not sure it applies in a case where they refuse service or sale because they feel it would be enabling the sinners. I guess we'll see how the case comes out.

As for berate, I disagree. I once got told by someone of the opposite sex that there were many different ways of communicating, because apparently I spoke to much. I stuck my middle finger up and said "like this?"

There are different ways of berating. Scolding can be done through hot water or through words. Therefore it can also be done in other ways. To tell someone "you're not welcome in shops in this country" is as scolding as throwing hot water over them.

I don't think you're aware that there are two different words to use here and they have different meanings. "Scold" is when you verbally discipline someone and "scald" is to burn with hot water or liquid. Therefore, if you throw hot water on someone you are just scalding them and scalding is not the same as berating.

But besides all that, this is what I'm talking about when it comes to people being offended: Some get so emotional they lose their objectivity and blow it all out of proportion. The shop owner did not say the couple was not welcome in the shop, she only told them that they didn't believe in gay marriage and therefore were bound by their beliefs not to sell them a wedding dress. That's it. She didn't tell them to leave or that they were not welcome.

Per your last few sentances...what is the difference? If you go to a store that sells specialty items uou need only to be told they wont sell to you specifically...how do you distort thay into anything remotely welcoming?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Wasn't it you that mentioned religious freedom? My point is that the Christian bridal shop owners are being criticized harshly for exercising their religious freedom whereas no one has anything to say about things like this that go on in the Muslim world.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Christians are the ones taking their right to discriminate to the Supreme Court

That is why we are talking about Christians

It doesn't change the fact that they are disproportionately criticized for what people deem to be discrimination when everyone knows that Muslims feel the same way about gays.

You are allowed to feel any way you want
But it is actions done as part of your business that draw criticism

Christians are using their religious beliefs as an excuse for violating the law

Their religious beliefs make them uncomfortable with the idea of being complicit in a gay couple's sin. I hardly think their goal is to violate the law.

 

[rightwinger]

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Christians are the ones taking their right to discriminate to the Supreme Court

That is why we are talking about Christians

It doesn't change the fact that they are disproportionately criticized for what people deem to be discrimination when everyone knows that Muslims feel the same way about gays.

You are allowed to feel any way you want
But it is actions done as part of your business that draw criticism

Christians are using their religious beliefs as an excuse for violating the law

Their religious beliefs make them uncomfortable with the idea of being complicit in a gay couple's sin. I hardly think their goal is to violate the law.

Then you are placing your religion over your business and should be willing to face the consequences for your god

Your religion does not place you above the law

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

None of this applies to the muslim world nor in fact to any other country since relates to to US law so why derail the thread into yet another topic on muslims? Now if you are talking about muslim wedding business' IN the US then YES they absolutely have to comply in the same way.

And we've seen where they won't. And I'm not derailing the thread. I bring up Muslims to use as a comparison to show how Christians are disproportionately criticized for this sort of thing.

However it is important to remember that 69% of Americans identify as Christian, with 1% each as Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu and other, and 2% as Jewish. That means you are far more likely to be rejected by a Christian establishment then the others due to demographics.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Demographics and who is more likely to reject my business are irrelevant.

Quite. The numbers are absolutely irrelevant, it’s either wrong for a person of any religion to deny service to gays based upon their religious convictions, or it isn’t.
But it seems the LGBTQ peeps and their supporters in this don’t see It that way, as muslims are denying service to gays and .....silence.
The Hypocrites aren’t in the least bit interested in targeting anyone who isn’t Christian, so it’s not exactly the principal that’s the thing.

Show me a case IN THIS COUNTRY where Muslims persecuted gays and got away with it

The links are already in this thread and you chose to ignore them. Go look for them if you’re actually genuinely interested in honest debate (highly doubtful indeed).

They were phony video setups that were never prosecuted

Show me a real one

Is denying gays your business only wrong if you are prosecuted for it? That's like saying that murder is okay unless you're charged with the crime.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse but let me explain it anyway in case you're as dense as I fear: The Muslims in the video did not know it was a setup, i.e., they thought he was a legitimate customer asking for a gay wedding cake. And they refused him. How many different ways can you tapdance around that fact?