Libertarians-A Question

[random3434]

I am trying to understand some of your viewpoints better. I found this on Wiki, can you explain what it really means to you, as a Libertarian?

Libertarianism and anarchism
Main article: Anarchism
Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing many theories and traditions, all opposed to coercion of individuals, especially by government. Although anarchism is usually considered to be a left-wing ideology, it always has included individualists – including anarcho-capitalists – who support pro-property and market-oriented economic structures. Anarchists may support anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.

Anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard has warned that the term anarchism refers to two schools of thought, the left-anarchism and the individualist anarchism.[53] Left-anarchism, as Rothbard exemplified, consists of anarcho-communism and syndicalism. He noted that, as Austrian School libertarians differ significantly in economics from the left-anarchists, most 19th century individualist anarchism never identified themselves as such. While Rothbard considers Tuckerite anarchism as a genuine form of libertarianism, Rothbard preferred the term libertarianism over anarchism due to the negative connotations of the latter.


Non-propertarian libertarianism

Libertarian socialism
Main article: Libertarian socialism
Libertarian socialism aims to create a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to tools of information and production, or a society in which such coercive institutions and hierarchies were drastically reduced in scope.[54]

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions such as an individual's right to own private property,[55] in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole.

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include: most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism[56]), social ecology,[57] and council communism.[58]


Left-libertarianism
Main article: Left-libertarianism
Left-libertarianism is usually regarded as doctrine that has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is not legitimate for someone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.[1][59][60] Most left libertarians support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an equal share of natural resources.[60] Left libertarianism is defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, Michael Otsuka, and Noam Chomsky.[61] The term is sometimes used as a synonym for libertarian socialism.[62]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

 

[Annie]

I put myself more along these lines:

The Libertarian Manifesto - Forbes.com

The Libertarian Manifesto
Richard Epstein 09.15.08, 6:00 PM ET
Online columnists, it is said, should not suffer from an abundance of caution or subtlety. Our job is to shake things up in a short compass. As the choice of title for my new weekly column indicates, I intend to do just that--push hard for a consistent small-government view that is, regrettably, as unfashionable on the Republican side of the aisle as it is on the Democratic. So here are some clues as to my game plan.

In principle, just what does my restless agenda entail? A bit of a contradiction, I fear. Elsewhere, I would describe myself in measured tones as a classical liberal who prizes balance and moderation on all matters governmental. In so doing, I would place myself squarely in the tradition that runs from John Locke, by way of David Hume and Adam Smith, to the Founding Fathers of our Constitution.

That classical liberalism eschews any affection for anarchy in the name of individual liberty. It recognizes the need for state force not only to prevent aggression and enforce contracts, but also to raise (flat) taxes, supply infrastructure and constrain monopoly. The public sector that emerges from a consistent application of these principles is not small potatoes. It easily encompasses a midsized antitrust law, some (modest) form of regulation over network industries like telecommunications and railroads and control of public nuisances through the targeted application of environmental law.

Ah, but the flip side. This approach also seeks to curtail the active use of government power to disrupt the operation of competitive markets with a dizzying set of subsidies, taxes and regulations that usually lower labor productivity by raising administrative costs--all in a fruitless effort to equalize incomes or create job security. The classical liberal works to design political institutions and legal rules to allow government to preserve social order without taking over decisions better served by private institutions and actors.

Why then inflame emotions by using the term "manifesto" in searching for a middle way. Simple. In the current political climate there are, at least on matters of economic importance, no political and legislative initiatives that threaten to shrink government below its optimal size. To the contrary, we live in an age of angry populism. All the pressures in Washington and in statehouses around the nation move inexorably in the direction of more regulation....

 

[Agnapostate]

The term "libertarian" was first used in print in an 1857 letter of the French anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque, reflecting the reality that libertarianism was first and foremost an anarcho-socialist movement, which is why libertarian socialism remains the only legitimate form. Libertarianism is now falsely associated with capitalist economics in the U.S., which promotes the widespread misconception that "libertarian socialism" is an oxymoron. For instance, Murray Rothbard and his ilk had a major role in the promotion of "anarcho"-capitalism and "right"-libertarianism, aided by the Objectivist school of Ayn Rand and the Austrian economic school of Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, and the current priestly class of Hans-Herman Hoppe, David Friedman, and the rest of the zoo down at the Mises Institute.

In reality, capitalism is inconsistent with libertarianism because capitalist economic organization requires extensive reliance on hierarchy, and therefore internal firm authoritarianism, as well as external economic authoritarianism, which stems from capitalism's usage of wage labor. Despite the misappropriation of the term by classical liberals, legitimate libertarians are necessarily anti-capitalists, as they must oppose the exploitative usage of wage labor and the subordination of labor under capital that occurs in a capitalist economy.

 

[random3434]

See, that's why I'm confused, there are so many different takes on it, it's like they want to be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Heck, I voted for the Libertarian candidate in a Presidential Election years ago, but that's because I thought he would have been the best leader for our country at that time.

 

[Annie]

Agna has a point on the label, I think that is the term now applied to those that aren't today's liberals or conservatives, which are really the same thing when in power.

 

[Red Dawn]

I am trying to understand some of your viewpoints better. I found this on Wiki, can you explain what it really means to you, as a Libertarian?

Libertarianism and anarchism
Main article: Anarchism
Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing many theories and traditions, all opposed to coercion of individuals, especially by government. Although anarchism is usually considered to be a left-wing ideology, it always has included individualists – including anarcho-capitalists – who support pro-property and market-oriented economic structures. Anarchists may support anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.

Anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard has warned that the term anarchism refers to two schools of thought, the left-anarchism and the individualist anarchism.[53] Left-anarchism, as Rothbard exemplified, consists of anarcho-communism and syndicalism. He noted that, as Austrian School libertarians differ significantly in economics from the left-anarchists, most 19th century individualist anarchism never identified themselves as such. While Rothbard considers Tuckerite anarchism as a genuine form of libertarianism, Rothbard preferred the term libertarianism over anarchism due to the negative connotations of the latter.


Non-propertarian libertarianism

Libertarian socialism
Main article: Libertarian socialism
Libertarian socialism aims to create a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to tools of information and production, or a society in which such coercive institutions and hierarchies were drastically reduced in scope.[54]

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions such as an individual's right to own private property,[55] in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole.

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include: most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism[56]), social ecology,[57] and council communism.[58]


Left-libertarianism
Main article: Left-libertarianism
Left-libertarianism is usually regarded as doctrine that has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is not legitimate for someone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.[1][59][60] Most left libertarians support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an equal share of natural resources.[60] Left libertarianism is defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, Michael Otsuka, and Noam Chomsky.[61] The term is sometimes used as a synonym for libertarian socialism.[62]



Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EZ, here's the deal. At least half, and maybe more, of self-identified "libertarians" on message boards are embarrased former Bush voters, or embarrased republicans.

I've noticed even the word "liberal" isn't a dirty word anymore. Some cons are trying to attach themselves to the word liberal, by calling themselves "classic liberals"

and the word liberal isn't an insult anymore, Sean H and Boss Limbaugh have been reduced to trying to use even more extreme words for leftys, like marxist, radical, and socialist.

 

[Agnapostate]

The Libertarian Party of the U.S. also has to be distinguished from the political philosophy of (small 'l') libertarianism. Hence, one might be a libertarian, but not a Libertarian, and as we have seen, few Libertarians are legitimate libertarians, at least in my opinion. That party is based on the continuation of an inefficient and authoritarian capitalist economy.

 

[Annie]

The Libertarian Party of the U.S. also has to be distinguished from the political philosophy of (small 'l') libertarianism. Hence, one might be a libertarian, but not a Libertarian, and as we have seen, few Libertarians are legitimate libertarians, at least in my opinion. That party is based on the continuation of an inefficient and authoritarian capitalist economy.

Twice in one day? Shocking. Right again. I would NOT join the Libertarian Party of a Ron Paul. Too many in that 'party' are racists and right wing nut jobs.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I prefer not to call myself a libertarian anymore. I want to reclaim the title of "Liberal" in its true meaning and not the bastardized definition it now has thanks to the Dimocratic party.

What Is Classical*Liberalism?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I am trying to understand some of your viewpoints better. I found this on Wiki, can you explain what it really means to you, as a Libertarian?

Libertarianism and anarchism
Main article: Anarchism
Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing many theories and traditions, all opposed to coercion of individuals, especially by government. Although anarchism is usually considered to be a left-wing ideology, it always has included individualists – including anarcho-capitalists – who support pro-property and market-oriented economic structures. Anarchists may support anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.

Anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard has warned that the term anarchism refers to two schools of thought, the left-anarchism and the individualist anarchism.[53] Left-anarchism, as Rothbard exemplified, consists of anarcho-communism and syndicalism. He noted that, as Austrian School libertarians differ significantly in economics from the left-anarchists, most 19th century individualist anarchism never identified themselves as such. While Rothbard considers Tuckerite anarchism as a genuine form of libertarianism, Rothbard preferred the term libertarianism over anarchism due to the negative connotations of the latter.


Non-propertarian libertarianism

Libertarian socialism
Main article: Libertarian socialism
Libertarian socialism aims to create a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to tools of information and production, or a society in which such coercive institutions and hierarchies were drastically reduced in scope.[54]

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions such as an individual's right to own private property,[55] in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole.

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include: most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism[56]), social ecology,[57] and council communism.[58]


Left-libertarianism
Main article: Left-libertarianism
Left-libertarianism is usually regarded as doctrine that has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is not legitimate for someone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.[1][59][60] Most left libertarians support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an equal share of natural resources.[60] Left libertarianism is defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, Michael Otsuka, and Noam Chomsky.[61] The term is sometimes used as a synonym for libertarian socialism.[62]



Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EZ, here's the deal. At least half, and maybe more, of self-identified "libertarians" on message boards are embarrased former Bush voters, or embarrased republicans.

I've noticed even the word "liberal" isn't a dirty word anymore. Some cons are trying to attach themselves to the word liberal, by calling themselves "classic liberals"

and the word liberal isn't an insult anymore, Sean H and Boss Limbaugh have been reduced to trying to use even more extreme words for leftys, like marxist, radical, and socialist.

And in your limited view of politics, anyone who disagrees with you voted for GW.

And you would be wrong again. I have never voted for GW and I have been trying to reclaim the liberal name from you pseudo liberal dimocrats for a long time now.

 

[midcan5]

Political ideologies and philosophies are interesting as they form the ideas and intellectual background for living and understanding the world. Personally I find libertarianism limited as it poses the same sort of materialistic magic that communism does. Freedom will lead to Nirvana, but it is those pesky people who make the trip so difficult.

The second link is by a thinker who sums up L well. Enjoy.

Why I Am Not a Libertarian
Why is libertarianism wrong?
Critiques Of Libertarianism: So You Want To Discuss Libertarianism....
The American Conservative -- Marxism of the Right


"It is not enough to ask, ‘Will my act harm other people?’ Even if the answer is No, my act may still be wrong, because of its effects on other people. I should ask, ‘Will my act be one of a set of acts that will together harm other people?’ The answer may be Yes. And the harm to others may be great." Derek Parfit

 

[Agnapostate]

Political ideologies and philosophies are interesting as they form the ideas and intellectual background for living and understanding the world. Personally I find libertarianism limited as it poses the same sort of materialistic magic that communism does. Freedom will lead to Nirvana, but it is those pesky people who make the trip so difficult.

The first component of that is true inasmuch as belief in free markets is absurdly utopian, as free markets have no application outside of the textbook, and support of them is effectively akin to belief in perfect competition. But it seems to be popular to disbelieve in the capacities of communism because of the failures of state capitalism in the Soviet Union and related states. The problem with that is that libertarian socialists of all varieties predicted this failure due to the authoritarian nature of Leninism (as the Russian anarcho-communist Peter Kropotkin did), or else they condemned the earlier authoritarian nature of Marxism (as the Russian anarcho-collectivist Mikhail Bakunin did).

 

[Agnapostate]

Twice in one day? Shocking. Right again. I would NOT join the Libertarian Party of a Ron Paul. Too many in that 'party' are racists and right wing nut jobs.

I'm right more often than you'd wish to believe. It's simply an ageist and sexist misconception about facets of my identity and agenda that prevent you from seeing that.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And Midcan, do you propose to know what "right" is?

Surely you must if others are wrong.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

See, that's why I'm confused, there are so many different takes on it, it's like they want to be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Heck, I voted for the Libertarian candidate in a Presidential Election years ago, but that's because I thought he would have been the best leader for our country at that time.

Most who identify themselves as Libertarians are probably of the same mold as the Libertarian Party of the United States, which is what some refer to as "small l libertarians." Mostly this is just a Republican Party-Lite that believes in a strictly limited constitutional government. Another group that would fall into this mold would be the Cato Institute.

The Cato Institute

There are those who sometimes call themselves "big L Libertarians," who are probably followers of Murray Rothbard and may also be referred to as anarcho-Capitalists. I, personally, am closer to this group than the "small l libertarians," if not completely sold on Rothbard's interpretation of a completely state-less anarcho-capitalist society. Though I seem to be getting closer to that as time moves on. We believe in completely free markets with no central planning or government intervention whatsoever, and many of us would probably prefer the Articles of Confederation (with some alterations, of course) to the Constitution. Though, again, there are some who would call for the complete abolition of the state. We belong to the Austrian school of economics in the tradition of Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich von Hayek, Murray Rothbard, and the like.

Ludwig von Mises Institute - Homepage
LewRockwell.com

There are "libertarian socialists" and others, and perhaps they had the name first, but I think that the two groups I've explained above are probably the more prominent these days.

Also, the term classical liberal would most closely resemble Libertarians than modern liberals or conservatives, despite what either side may claim.

 

[Agnapostate]

Yes, the Stato Institute is a perfect example of the misappropriation of libertarianism.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I am trying to understand some of your viewpoints better. I found this on Wiki, can you explain what it really means to you, as a Libertarian?

Libertarianism and anarchism
Main article: Anarchism
Anarchism is a political philosophy encompassing many theories and traditions, all opposed to coercion of individuals, especially by government. Although anarchism is usually considered to be a left-wing ideology, it always has included individualists – including anarcho-capitalists – who support pro-property and market-oriented economic structures. Anarchists may support anything from extreme individualism to complete collectivism.

Anarcho-capitalist Murray Rothbard has warned that the term anarchism refers to two schools of thought, the left-anarchism and the individualist anarchism.[53] Left-anarchism, as Rothbard exemplified, consists of anarcho-communism and syndicalism. He noted that, as Austrian School libertarians differ significantly in economics from the left-anarchists, most 19th century individualist anarchism never identified themselves as such. While Rothbard considers Tuckerite anarchism as a genuine form of libertarianism, Rothbard preferred the term libertarianism over anarchism due to the negative connotations of the latter.


Non-propertarian libertarianism

Libertarian socialism
Main article: Libertarian socialism
Libertarian socialism aims to create a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to tools of information and production, or a society in which such coercive institutions and hierarchies were drastically reduced in scope.[54]

This equality and freedom would be achieved through the abolition of authoritarian institutions such as an individual's right to own private property,[55] in order that direct control of the means of production and resources will be gained by the working class and society as a whole.

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include: most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism[56]), social ecology,[57] and council communism.[58]


Left-libertarianism
Main article: Left-libertarianism
Left-libertarianism is usually regarded as doctrine that has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is not legitimate for someone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.[1][59][60] Most left libertarians support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an equal share of natural resources.[60] Left libertarianism is defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, Michael Otsuka, and Noam Chomsky.[61] The term is sometimes used as a synonym for libertarian socialism.[62]



Libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

EZ, here's the deal. At least half, and maybe more, of self-identified "libertarians" on message boards are embarrased former Bush voters, or embarrased republicans.

I've noticed even the word "liberal" isn't a dirty word anymore. Some cons are trying to attach themselves to the word liberal, by calling themselves "classic liberals"

and the word liberal isn't an insult anymore, Sean H and Boss Limbaugh have been reduced to trying to use even more extreme words for leftys, like marxist, radical, and socialist.

There are probably some Republicans that are claiming the Libertarian tag these days, but I'd say they're probably so upset by what happened under a Republican administration that they're probably genuinely Libertarian. At least "small l libertarian" at any rate. The term classical liberal, as I said in my previous, is closer to modern Libertarianism than it is to either modern liberalism or conservatism in the United States.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Myth and Truth About Libertarianism - Murray N. Rothbard - Mises Institute

This is an interesting article from Rothbard discussing Libertarianism, for anyone that's curious.

 

[Agnapostate]

Myth and Truth About Libertarianism - Murray N. Rothbard - Mises Institute

This is an interesting article from Rothbard discussing Libertarianism, for anyone that's curious.

At least the Milton Friedman Chicago School approach could maintain some semblance of credibility...Rothbard abandons that as soon as possible.

 

[Ravi]

You know what I like about libertarians? They aren't rabid. If someone claims to be a libertarian and posts trollishly, chances are they are liars. I also believe it isn't possible for libertarians to be supportive of anything that violates someone's civil rights.