Lawsuit: Florida Clinic Botched Abortion, Threw Out Live Baby

[Care4all]

If there were a handicapped man in a building that was on fire and he was going to die if i did not help him along with a container of frozen fertilized eggs, I would save the handicapped man first, before rescuing the embryos...if i had the chance, i would go back and rescue the frozen fertilized eggs, but not before rescuing the man that was BORN already and living and breathing, here on earth.

how about you User? what would you do under these circumstances....are the embryos or the frozen fertilized eggs of the same value and worth as the born and living human being? Would you really see them as the same worth as the handicapped man?

People are always saying this as though they think it makes some sort of point about the acceptability of abortion, something like, "Aha! If you would save the handicapped man, it MUST mean that it's okay to kill unborn babies!" Sorry, but this triumphant burning building story doesn't make that point at all.

As Ramesh Ponuru says, think about another hypothetical situation. You're in a burning building. You can either rescue a research scientists who is making great strides toward the cure for Alzheimer's disease, or rescue a heroin-addicted 58-year-old man who has spent his life in and out of prison. Which one do you save?

Let's say you save the scientist. Are you therefore saying that it's permissible to kill hopeless old drug addicts? Are you saying that such people do not have the same right not to be killed as a research scientist?

Neither hypothetical question asks you to contemplate actively killing anyone. The moral question posed by burning-buiding stories is the extent to which you can show favoritism without be unjust. To put it another way, in affirming that all human beings have an equal right not to be killed, we need not affirm that all human beings have equal claims on us in all respects.

well cecille, it happens to be logical and true that the living and born human being does take priority over the developing human being.

In your silly scenario you are trying to make the Firemen choose one born human being over another born human being based on whether they liked his status in life or not....and that's just not in the fireman's protocol of duty. The firemen would rescue who could be rescued first or who needed their help first, with no regard to their position in life, because all human life is equal.

But this is clearly not the case with the frozen embryo and the drug addict, or the frozen embryo and the Scientist, the firemen would be required to rescue the born humans before rescuing the frozen embryos....and rightly so.

I am not saying this to justify abortion or as an ah ha! moment....i am saying it, because it simply is the truth.

I am not one to make up things or distort them in order to try support my cause.

limiting abortion to the first 12 weeks of gestation, is not a bad thing Cecille. It could reduce the number of abortions, at least late term, and it gives more recognition to the fetus, which is a good thing and a step in the right direction.

unlike the rest of you, I don't have a political agenda to guide me ora political agenda to keep...and can be flexible in working towards my goal, of having fewer women abort or feel the need that they have to abort.

Care

 

[Care4all]

why not have the man in the wheelchair hold the embryos while you get him out and save both at the same time

i dont believe in the no win situation


i always freaked out the lifeboat folks

hahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[007]

i just saw this article and was disgusted. they should be tried for manslaughter, if not murder

ALL abortion is murder, period. They KILL the baby. Whether it's 4 weeks old or 25 weeks old, inside the womb or outside the womb... they MURDER the baby.

how bout we dont get into another rediculous "abortion is murder!" argument (because they always turn into arguments and not debates) and focus on the story

How about I don't want to debate the issue with you anyway. There IS no debate. Abortion is murder, period. A human being is killed, period. You call it what you want, I call it murder. Killing people is murder. There IS no debate about it.

Too often the liberals get far too carried away with the "what if" game when trying to spin abortion as something other than murder. "Well what if the woman had a Sherman tank tattooed on her tits and she could shit daisies while kicking your ass?" Who the fuck cares? If you KILL a human, then you KILL a human. There isn't any gray area there. You are KILLING a human. Keep your "what if" for something that it MAY apply to. It doesn't here.

 

[busara]

what a surprise, the discussion turned into yet another "abortion is murder!" thread

 

[007]

what a surprise, the discussion turned into yet another "abortion is murder!" thread

What a surpise... that's because it is.

And I know that upsets you liberals who approve of murder. You own it.

 

[Care4all]

what a surprise, the discussion turned into yet another "abortion is murder!" thread

IF that baby girl was born alive, and the people in the clinic killed it, after it was born and took it's first breath, i would be apt to call it manslaughter....not premeditated because they did not know the baby would be delivered alive, but killing a live human being, none the less busara.

And yes, it turned in to an abortion thread as usual....but there is a topic, regarding late term abortions that should be discussed and is tied in to this thread.

That was NOT a one inch unformed cluster of cells of a developing human being that was being aborted, that was a fuly formed human being that maybe needed a little more development of strengthening and fattening up.

I don't think this should be denied for the sake of keeping abortion available at all stages of pregnancy at all costs....

I think with our medical advances in keeping prematurely born infants alive and the knowledge of what is going on in the womb that we have managed to develop through taking sonogram/ultrasound pictures of various weeks in to gestation is now showing us more than we bargained for....about the offspring inside the mother's womb and their development.

Cutting off abortion at 12 weeks unless for the health of the mother was at stake, which is all Roe v wade federally guaranteed, would be a good idea for each state to institute imo, many states already have this as law, like New Jersey.

care

 

[catzmeow]

That was NOT a one inch unformed cluster of cells of a developing human being that was being aborted, that was a fuly formed human being that maybe needed a little more development of strengthening and fattening up.

I don't think this should be denied for the sake of keeping abortion available at all stages of pregnancy at all costs....

I think with our medical advances in keeping prematurely born infants alive and the knowledge of what is going on in the womb that we have managed to develop through taking sonogram/ultrasound pictures of various weeks in to gestation is now showing us more than we bargained for....about the offspring inside the mother's womb and their development.

Cutting off abortion at 12 weeks unless for the health of the mother was at stake, which is all Roe v wade federally guaranteed, would be a good idea for each state to institute imo, many states already have this as law, like New Jersey.

care

I totally agree. I don't think abortion policies should be driven by the fanatics on either end of the spectrum, but by sound medical practice. At 23 weeks, we should not be allowing abortions except in extreme circumstances.

And, this "clinic" should be investigated by the state licensing folks, as well, for their unprofessional treatment of patients. Non-medical personnel should not be cutting umbilical cords and performing medical treatment.

 

[busara]

what a surprise, the discussion turned into yet another "abortion is murder!" thread

What a surpise... that's because it is.

And I know that upsets you liberals who approve of murder. You own it.

do you have any idea what my beliefs on abortion are, or are you just infering that i must be a liberal who supports abortion because i am obviously tired of the same repetiive arguments being thrust at those with opposing views where the end result is always the individual getting further entrenched into the view they held at the beginning.

 

[007]

what a surprise, the discussion turned into yet another "abortion is murder!" thread

What a surpise... that's because it is.

And I know that upsets you liberals who approve of murder. You own it.

do you have any idea what my beliefs on abortion are, or are you just infering that i must be a liberal who supports abortion because i am obviously tired of the same repetiive arguments being thrust at those with opposing views where the end result is always the individual getting further entrenched into the view they held at the beginning.

Don't ask me. If you believe in abortion, it's murder and you own it. If you don't, you don't.

 

[catzmeow]

Don't ask me. If you believe in abortion, it's murder and you own it. If you don't, you don't.

You aren't making sense. YOu may see abortion at 5 weeks as murder. I miscarried at 12 weeks, and I held that miscarried fetus in my hand, and I don't see it as murder. A fetus, at 8 or 10 or 12 weeks is not the same as a fetus at 24 weeks. They just aren't.

And, your perspective is not universal, Pale Rider. It is not shared by all.

 

[michiganFats]

Some things about this story don't add up. I googled this story and read several versions.

By all accounts the police searched the clinic several days later due to anonymous calls about the incident. Why didn't the mother call, that day?

Am I really supposed to believe that Gonzalez, the co-owner of the clinic, is stupid enough to whack a live birth in the waiting room, in front of witnesses?

If Gonzalez was in fact stupid enough to do that, why didn't the anonymous callers call right then, that day? And for that matter, why are they still anonymous at this point?

2 1/2 years have gone by and still no criminal charges have been filed. Why not? Something major has to have been left out of the press reports.

How come the mother waited until the Thomas More Society offered to file suit on behalf of the infant to name her child?

There has to be more to this story than what has been reported.

 

[DiamondDave]

Don't ask me. If you believe in abortion, it's murder and you own it. If you don't, you don't.

You aren't making sense. YOu may see abortion at 5 weeks as murder. I miscarried at 12 weeks, and I held that miscarried fetus in my hand, and I don't see it as murder. A fetus, at 8 or 10 or 12 weeks is not the same as a fetus at 24 weeks. They just aren't.

And, your perspective is not universal, Pale Rider. It is not shared by all.

And a mongoloid is not the same as a fully functioning and healthy adult... and is not the same as a person in a vegetative state coma....

The baby at 8 weeks or 10 weeks or 14 weeks, unless there is a medical problem or injury, will then become the more advanced baby in the womb and a baby that goes thru whatever birth process

While we all are human, NONE of us are the same... it's a fact of life.. but it does not make any one innocent life less valuable than any other

*****
And michigan... there is always more t a story than what is in a small article

 

[jgbkab]

Some things about this story don't add up. I googled this story and read several versions.

By all accounts the police searched the clinic several days later due to anonymous calls about the incident. Why didn't the mother call, that day?

Am I really supposed to believe that Gonzalez, the co-owner of the clinic, is stupid enough to whack a live birth in the waiting room, in front of witnesses?

If Gonzalez was in fact stupid enough to do that, why didn't the anonymous callers call right then, that day? And for that matter, why are they still anonymous at this point?

2 1/2 years have gone by and still no criminal charges have been filed. Why not? Something major has to have been left out of the press reports.

How come the mother waited until the Thomas More Society offered to file suit on behalf of the infant to name her child?

There has to be more to this story than what has been reported.

I figured something was strange about the story. I didn't know that this was more than two years ago. I call bullshit.

 

[busara]

What a surpise... that's because it is.

And I know that upsets you liberals who approve of murder. You own it.

do you have any idea what my beliefs on abortion are, or are you just infering that i must be a liberal who supports abortion because i am obviously tired of the same repetiive arguments being thrust at those with opposing views where the end result is always the individual getting further entrenched into the view they held at the beginning.

Don't ask me. If you believe in abortion, it's murder and you own it. If you don't, you don't.

why dont you even attempt to make an intelligent argument? just repeating over and over again the word murder in an attempt at shock value will not convince anyone that your view is correct.

let me get your opinion on something. say that roe v wade is overturned and it is no longer legal to get an abortion. what do you think will happen? will everyone just say "ok then, guess i'm carrying the baby" or do you think illegal, back-alley abortions will become the norm? will women start undergoing dangerous procedures to keep from having the baby? will a huge amount of resources be needed to combat the movement (as with the war on drugs)?

another situatuation: what is your opinion of a child being born into a poor family to a mother that has no interest in caring for the baby and also lacks the resources to provide proper care. the child grows up, but like most people raised in a poor neighborhood, fail to break out of the cycle of poverty and as a result we have another person who feeds off of the system.

i ask these questions because i would like to know your opinions. not using them as an 'a ha!' situation.

 

[catzmeow]

And a mongoloid is not the same as a fully functioning and healthy adult...

A mongoloid is capable of a considerably higher degree of functioning than an 8 week old fetus.

and is not the same as a person in a vegetative state coma....

I see no reason to medically prolongue a person in a vegetative state.

The baby at 8 weeks or 10 weeks or 14 weeks, unless there is a medical problem or injury, will then become the more advanced baby in the womb and a baby that goes thru whatever birth process

However, a fetus at 8 weeks has less functional capacity than a mouse. It sounds harsh, but it's true. You think nothing of killing a mouse.

While we all are human, NONE of us are the same... it's a fact of life.. but it does not make any one innocent life less valuable than any other

They are all valuable, but some should not require extraordinary measures to prolongue them.

If you think of a uterus as medical treatment, you are requiring a woman to prolongue that life way beyond reasonable expectations.

On the other hand, once a human being can survive outside of the womb without taking extraordinary measures, we should ensure that human being's survival.

I see this medically.

I consider that taking extraordinary medical measures to save human life, to allow people to create genetic offspring, etc. is actually WEAKENING us as a species. We should actually be making more hard choices and letting some lives go, rather than, for instance, allowing a woman whose uterus is not suitable for childbearing to reproduce and pass that trait along to her child.

Sounds harsh, I know, but our commitment to extraordinary measures is not helping us as a people. It is creating a population that will someday be utterly dependent on these measures at all times.

It's not a moral issue for me, it is a scientific/medical one. I can't really understand those of you for whom it IS a moral issue. (*and I strongly suspect that you cannot understand me).

 

[DiamondDave]

And a mongoloid is not the same as a fully functioning and healthy adult...

A mongoloid is capable of a considerably higher degree of functioning than an 8 week old fetus.

and is not the same as a person in a vegetative state coma....

I see no reason to medically prolongue a person in a vegetative state.

The baby at 8 weeks or 10 weeks or 14 weeks, unless there is a medical problem or injury, will then become the more advanced baby in the womb and a baby that goes thru whatever birth process

However, a fetus at 8 weeks has less functional capacity than a mouse. It sounds harsh, but it's true. You think nothing of killing a mouse.

While we all are human, NONE of us are the same... it's a fact of life.. but it does not make any one innocent life less valuable than any other

They are all valuable, but some should not require extraordinary measures to prolongue them.

If you think of a uterus as medical treatment, you are requiring a woman to prolongue that life way beyond reasonable expectations.

On the other hand, once a human being can survive outside of the womb without taking extraordinary measures, we should ensure that human being's survival.

I see this medically.

I consider that taking extraordinary medical measures to save human life, to allow people to create genetic offspring, etc. is actually WEAKENING us as a species. We should actually be making more hard choices and letting some lives go, rather than, for instance, allowing a woman whose uterus is not suitable for childbearing to reproduce and pass that trait along to her child.

Sounds harsh, I know, but our commitment to extraordinary measures is not helping us as a people. It is creating a population that will someday be utterly dependent on these measures at all times.

It's not a moral issue for me, it is a scientific/medical one. I can't really understand those of you for whom it IS a moral issue. (*and I strongly suspect that you cannot understand me).

1) But the fetus will eventually surpass the mongoloid... a 6 month old does not have the higher degree of functioning either.. the only difference being time and an exposure to an air atmosphere
2) I don't see prolonging it either... but if you as a stranger plunge a pair of scissors into their skull, it is still murder
3) But a mouse will always be a mouse
4) Life itself is a moral issue... else murder would not be illegal

 

[Jon]

catz, you seem to be focusing on pregnancies that have complications or when the fetus shows signs of abnormality. If a woman's uterus is not suitable for childbearing, she needs to prevent pregnancy, not end it after it has begun. If a woman doesn't want kids, she needs to prevent pregnancy, not end it after it has begun.

ONLY when the mother's life is in danger would I ever be in favor of an abortion.

As for back alley abortions if Roe v. Wade is overturned, I'm all for it. Chances are if a woman would have an abortion from an unfit doctor, she'll get an infection and die. Good, that means we weed out the weak. Or, if a doctor is performing abortions under the table, he'll get caught and go to jail. Good, that's where he would belong.

 

[catzmeow]

catz, you seem to be focusing on pregnancies that have complications or when the fetus shows signs of abnormality. If a woman's uterus is not suitable for childbearing, she needs to prevent pregnancy, not end it after it has begun. If a woman doesn't want kids, she needs to prevent pregnancy, not end it after it has begun.

ONLY when the mother's life is in danger would I ever be in favor of an abortion.

As for back alley abortions if Roe v. Wade is overturned, I'm all for it. Chances are if a woman would have an abortion from an unfit doctor, she'll get an infection and die. Good, that means we weed out the weak. Or, if a doctor is performing abortions under the table, he'll get caught and go to jail. Good, that's where he would belong.

No, I"m actually not. I have no moral objections to the morning after pill and/or ending a pregnancy by 12 weeks.

After all, 30% of pregnancies are ended by mother nature during that time period, anyway. If mother nature is allowed to acknowledge a mistake, women should be, too.

 

[Ravi]

Some things about this story don't add up. I googled this story and read several versions.

By all accounts the police searched the clinic several days later due to anonymous calls about the incident. Why didn't the mother call, that day?

Am I really supposed to believe that Gonzalez, the co-owner of the clinic, is stupid enough to whack a live birth in the waiting room, in front of witnesses?

If Gonzalez was in fact stupid enough to do that, why didn't the anonymous callers call right then, that day? And for that matter, why are they still anonymous at this point?

2 1/2 years have gone by and still no criminal charges have been filed. Why not? Something major has to have been left out of the press reports.

How come the mother waited until the Thomas More Society offered to file suit on behalf of the infant to name her child?

There has to be more to this story than what has been reported.

It is beginning to sound like a scam of some sort. Heck, I live in the area and I'd never heard about it until I read this thread.

 

[007]

why dont you even attempt to make an intelligent argument? just repeating over and over again the word murder in an attempt at shock value will not convince anyone that your view is correct.

Why do you keep asking me the same question over and over, even though I've made myself perfectly clear? If you have another term for when you END the LIFE of a HUMAN other than MURDER, or KILL, then by all means, TELL ME.

If the color of my truck is red, then I won't be going around telling people it's green. Same with abortion. It's murder, and I won't go around telling people it's not.

let me get your opinion on something. say that roe v wade is overturned and it is no longer legal to get an abortion. what do you think will happen? will everyone just say "ok then, guess i'm carrying the baby" or do you think illegal, back-alley abortions will become the norm? will women start undergoing dangerous procedures to keep from having the baby? will a huge amount of resources be needed to combat the movement (as with the war on drugs)?

another situatuation: what is your opinion of a child being born into a poor family to a mother that has no interest in caring for the baby and also lacks the resources to provide proper care. the child grows up, but like most people raised in a poor neighborhood, fail to break out of the cycle of poverty and as a result we have another person who feeds off of the system.

i ask these questions because i would like to know your opinions. not using them as an 'a ha!' situation.

I don't get into the "what if" game about abortion. I thought I made that perfectly clear as well. You can play that game with someone else.

Abortion is murder. Now do you want to tell me it's not, or don't you? No "what if's." You can "what if" life from here to kingdom come and never get anything accomplished.

I see three instances where abortion should be allowed. Rape, incest, and the mothers life is in imminent danger. I believe that in the instances of rape and incest, it's the devils seed that is being spawned.

I do however thank you for not resorting to insults so far as this conversation has gone.