Lawsuit: Florida Clinic Botched Abortion, Threw Out Live Baby

[Jon]

No, I"m actually not. I have no moral objections to the morning after pill and/or ending a pregnancy by 12 weeks.

After all, 30% of pregnancies are ended by mother nature during that time period, anyway. If mother nature is allowed to acknowledge a mistake, women should be, too.

Your trying to take morality out of this issue does not work. Sorry, some people actually value human life, even if it is only a 3 week old fetus.

Mother nature also ends pregnancies in woman that want the child. Does that mean I can go around stabbing pregnant women in the stomach?

 

[Ravi]

I believe that in the instances of rape and incest, it's the devils seed that is being spawned.

So you believe that many of our founding fathers were devils? Because quite a few of them raped their slaves.

 

[Jon]

I believe that in the instances of rape and incest, it's the devils seed that is being spawned.

So you believe that many of our founding fathers were devils? Because quite a few of them raped their slaves.

That's the harsh reality of it.

But in this day and age, even in the case of rape, there are things victims can do to prevent pregnant.

 

[Ravi]

I believe that in the instances of rape and incest, it's the devils seed that is being spawned.

So you believe that many of our founding fathers were devils? Because quite a few of them raped their slaves.

That's the harsh reality of it.

But in this day and age, even in the case of rape, there are things victims can do to prevent pregnant.

What?

 

[catzmeow]

Your trying to take morality out of this issue does not work. Sorry, some people actually value human life, even if it is only a 3 week old fetus.

Mother nature also ends pregnancies in woman that want the child. Does that mean I can go around stabbing pregnant women in the stomach?

I value human life. I just don't consider fetuses any more human than a rat embryo until they are viable outside of the womb.

 

[doeton]

Sorry, some people actually value human life, even if it is only a 3 week old fetus.

Chances are if a woman would have an abortion from an unfit doctor, she'll get an infection and die.Good, that means we weed out the weak

typical assclown response from the jsander.

 

[DiveCon]

Sorry, some people actually value human life, even if it is only a 3 week old fetus.

Chances are if a woman would have an abortion from an unfit doctor, she'll get an infection and die.Good, that means we weed out the weak

typical assclown response from the jsander.

he sure did defeat the value of the first statement with the second one

 

[Care4all]

Sorry, some people actually value human life, even if it is only a 3 week old fetus.

Chances are if a woman would have an abortion from an unfit doctor, she'll get an infection and die.Good, that means we weed out the weak

typical assclown response from the jsander.

he sure did defeat the value of the first statement with the second one

yeah he sure did!

And this is the 2nd post in this thread where he has shown his cards, in the same manner, which sadly, in my opinion negates whatever he has to say on the subject?

 

[Jon]

Sorry, let me make this clear:

A fetus whose potential is unknown is more valuable to me than a person who would be so desperate as to find a back alley doctor to clean their uterus with a coat hanger. Give me a newborn crack baby with Down's over a crack whore anyday.

 

[Jon]

Your trying to take morality out of this issue does not work. Sorry, some people actually value human life, even if it is only a 3 week old fetus.

Mother nature also ends pregnancies in woman that want the child. Does that mean I can go around stabbing pregnant women in the stomach?

I value human life. I just don't consider fetuses any more human than a rat embryo until they are viable outside of the womb.

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act disagrees with you.

 

[Agnapostate]

That's an extremely unfortunate occurrence. Regardless, I'm not prepared to equate infanticide with the killing of older persons. As I've mentioned previously, infants are not self-aware beings, in that they lack the capacity to view themselves as distinct entities existing over time and conceptualize about their own future. Hence, they would possess a lesser capacity to suffer from their own deaths than older persons who would have preferences and interests for their own futures denied by being killed.

Infanticide remains morally wrong, of course. I'm simply not prepared to condemn it as equivalent to killing an older person. I also find it odd that many condemn the killing of infants, but say nothing to condemn the killing of nonhuman animals with similar levels of awareness of their existence and surroundings.

 

[Jon]

Because animals with similar levels of awareness do not develop beyond said level, while infants do. Not that I condone killing of animals, but your point is very misplaced.

 

[Agnapostate]

Because animals with similar levels of awareness do not develop beyond said level, while infants do. Not that I condone killing of animals, but your point is very misplaced.

So it's a matter of potential? Then why not condemn contraception or even celibacy on the same grounds? An egg has the capacity to develop into a chicken (though we regularly consume unfertilized eggs), so why is it considered worse to drop a live chicken into a pot of boiling water than it is an egg? Because we can recognize that by virtue of its sensory capacities, a chicken has a greater capacity to suffer from being dropped into a pot of boiling water than an egg does. Similarly, a grown human has a greater capacity to suffer from being killed than an embryo, fetus, or even infant does, by virtue of his or her self-awareness and capacity to form preferences and interests about future life.

 

[Truthmatters]

Doctor loses license in live birth abortion case - CNN.com

 

[Jon]

so why is it considered worse to drop a live chicken into a pot of boiling water than it is an egg?

Who said it was?

Besides, your analogy is way off. I don't compare livestock or other nonhuman animals on the same level as human life, in any way. Human fetuses have far more worth than animal fetuses do.

 

[Agnapostate]

Who said it was?

Do you believe that dropping a live chicken into a pot of boiling water is morally equivalent to dropping an egg into a pot of boiling water? I find it difficult to understand how you would reach such a conclusion.

Besides, your analogy is way off. I don't compare livestock or other nonhuman animals on the same level as human life, in any way. Human fetuses have far more worth than animal fetuses do.

I didn't directly compare human fetuses to animal fetuses; I compared human fetuses (and infants, in this case) to independently existing nonhuman animals. Animals are presumably considered morally inferior to humans because of their lesser levels of awareness of their existence and surroundings, and fetuses and infants have similar levels of awareness to them, so why is it that fetuses and infants are not considered inferior in the same manner? I already addressed the argument from potential, which leaves us with this.

A < P.
A = F.
__________
F < P.

Animals are inferior to persons.
Fetuses and animals have similar levels of awareness.
______________________________________________
Thus, fetuses are inferior to persons.

And the same follows for infants. Wherein lies the problem?

 

[garyd]

Your evidence to support that statement is exactly what?

 

[DiamondDave]

And if you are deemed to have a lesser level or awareness, considering your lack of comprehension... then I guess it is OK to abort you too?

An animal will always be an animal.. a baby rat will be nothing more than an adult rat... a pre-born human will indeed become a human.. barring injury, tragedy, disease, etc

A fetus is not inferior to an adult human, just as an infant is not inferior, just as a toddler is not inferior, etc

But nice try

 

[Agnapostate]

Your evidence to support that statement is exactly what?

My "evidence" rests in the fact that fetuses (and for that matter, infants) do not possess the capacity to view themselves as independent entities existing over time, and thus lack the capacity to form according preferences and interests about the future in the same manner that grown persons can.

And if you are deemed to have a lesser level or awareness, considering your lack of comprehension... then I guess it is OK to abort you too?

An animal will always be an animal.. a baby rat will be nothing more than an adult rat... a pre-born human will indeed become a human.. barring injury, tragedy, disease, etc

A fetus is not inferior to an adult human, just as an infant is not inferior, just as a toddler is not inferior, etc

But nice try

Again, I did not mention rat fetuses or babies, or even rats, for that matter. I mentioned fully grown nonhuman animals, such as dogs, goats or pigs. Or to simplify matters further, consider an adult chimpanzee, which has an indisputably greater capacity to be aware of its own existence and surroundings than a human infant does. I am merely inquiring as to why it is considered morally worse to kill a human infant than animals with greater levels of self-awareness.

You have cited potential, but I have already rebutted that claim by noting that contraception and celibacy have the same effect of inhibiting potential. I have also noted that claiming X = Y, therefore a potential X = Y is not accurate, just as crushing an acorn is not equivalent to chopping down a 20 year old oak tree. An even more illustrative example came in the way of the chicken and the egg. Though a (fertilized) egg would have the potential to eventually become a chicken, its current attributes (or specifically, lack of sensory attributes) would not endow it with the same capacity to suffer from being dropped into a pot of boiling water as a chicken would possess, despite the fact that it had the potential to become a chicken.

Similarly, despite a fetus's or infant's potential to develop into a grown person, its lack of self-awareness does not endow it with the same capacity to suffer from its own death as a grown person would possess, since the grown person would be capable of viewing him or herself as a distinct entity existing over time, forming preferences and interests about the future, and suffering from the denial of those preferences through being killed.

 

[Truthmatters]

Women can not be equal to men if they are not allowed to control what goes on inside their own bodies.