Largest government defeat since the war (apparently)

[Tommy Tainant]

There is going to be a vote of no confidence tomorrow. She will win that because Corbyn does not have the votes, It is a pointless exercise.

Meanwhile there is a majority for remain in the Commons and Lords. There is a way through it but my head hurts now.

At this point, is there a genuine push for a second referendum? I just don't see why the best British politics can come up with is "blow up the economy"

Its meandering in that direction.There have been cross party talks but not involving Corbyn who is hell bent on an election which will resolve nada. There are so many layers to this. Both sides united to give her this kicking. But common sense would lose the brexiters if they pushed for a second referendum. I think that they should and think that they will have to because the only deal on the table now is.......................no deal.

I'm Belgian and it always kind of baffled me that no one in Britain on the leave side seemed to have thought it all the way through. Of course I don't speak completely objectively but it was pretty obvious that the British negotiating position would be extremely weak. The EU has way more incentive to make leaving it painful than making huge concessions to a country that already had pretty big concessions when they were in. These guys that pushed for it were in the end politicians to. What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Most of them have been dreaming of brexit for years. It has become a mantra. It has torn the tories apart since thatchers days.

There are several groupings.

Those who have a romanticized world view and dream of Britannia ruling the waves again.

Those who long to break free of EU protections so that they can deregulate everything and turn us into a capitalist paradise.

Those who have genuine concerns about the EU.

And Boris Jonson who sees it as the issue that would make him Prime Minister.

Considering the time they have been moaning you would think that they had a plan of some sort.

But no. Up until recently they still believed that we held all the cards in the debate. Deluded.

May screwed up by appointing the most limited of them to negotiate. David Davies sat down with his counterparts for a couple of hours over 2 years. Meanwhile the tory party was engaged in a discussion with itself on what brexit should look like. After all nobody wanted the approaching nuclear winter.

And the EU sat by politely watching the circus unfold.

If we had a credible opposition it would be straightforward thing to sort out. But Corbyn is himself a quiet brexiter and is conflicted.

Parliament cant sort it so the obvious move is to put the deal to the people.

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why dont you read threads before blundering in ?

 

[Mindful]

At this point, is there a genuine push for a second referendum? I just don't see why the best British politics can come up with is "blow up the economy"

Its meandering in that direction.There have been cross party talks but not involving Corbyn who is hell bent on an election which will resolve nada. There are so many layers to this. Both sides united to give her this kicking. But common sense would lose the brexiters if they pushed for a second referendum. I think that they should and think that they will have to because the only deal on the table now is.......................no deal.

I'm Belgian and it always kind of baffled me that no one in Britain on the leave side seemed to have thought it all the way through. Of course I don't speak completely objectively but it was pretty obvious that the British negotiating position would be extremely weak. The EU has way more incentive to make leaving it painful than making huge concessions to a country that already had pretty big concessions when they were in. These guys that pushed for it were in the end politicians to. What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Most of them have been dreaming of brexit for years. It has become a mantra. It has torn the tories apart since thatchers days.

There are several groupings.

Those who have a romanticized world view and dream of Britannia ruling the waves again.

Those who long to break free of EU protections so that they can deregulate everything and turn us into a capitalist paradise.

Those who have genuine concerns about the EU.

And Boris Jonson who sees it as the issue that would make him Prime Minister.

Considering the time they have been moaning you would think that they had a plan of some sort.

But no. Up until recently they still believed that we held all the cards in the debate. Deluded.

May screwed up by appointing the most limited of them to negotiate. David Davies sat down with his counterparts for a couple of hours over 2 years. Meanwhile the tory party was engaged in a discussion with itself on what brexit should look like. After all nobody wanted the approaching nuclear winter.

And the EU sat by politely watching the circus unfold.

If we had a credible opposition it would be straightforward thing to sort out. But Corbyn is himself a quiet brexiter and is conflicted.

Parliament cant sort it so the obvious move is to put the deal to the people.

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why dont you read threads before blundering in ?

And you were giving distorted information. Like you always do.

You're legendary on USMB.

 

[danielpalos]

May has RAF plane on standby as she faces biggest parliamentary defeat since WW2

In the next hour.
Estimates range from 80 to 200.
May already knows she cant win and there is an RAF plane warming up to take her to Brussels to beg for more concessions.
Taking back control my arse.

I have a bottle of Sancerre chilled to accompany the debacle.

she tried. Good thing Great Britain is an island.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Its meandering in that direction.There have been cross party talks but not involving Corbyn who is hell bent on an election which will resolve nada. There are so many layers to this. Both sides united to give her this kicking. But common sense would lose the brexiters if they pushed for a second referendum. I think that they should and think that they will have to because the only deal on the table now is.......................no deal.

I'm Belgian and it always kind of baffled me that no one in Britain on the leave side seemed to have thought it all the way through. Of course I don't speak completely objectively but it was pretty obvious that the British negotiating position would be extremely weak. The EU has way more incentive to make leaving it painful than making huge concessions to a country that already had pretty big concessions when they were in. These guys that pushed for it were in the end politicians to. What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Most of them have been dreaming of brexit for years. It has become a mantra. It has torn the tories apart since thatchers days.

There are several groupings.

Those who have a romanticized world view and dream of Britannia ruling the waves again.

Those who long to break free of EU protections so that they can deregulate everything and turn us into a capitalist paradise.

Those who have genuine concerns about the EU.

And Boris Jonson who sees it as the issue that would make him Prime Minister.

Considering the time they have been moaning you would think that they had a plan of some sort.

But no. Up until recently they still believed that we held all the cards in the debate. Deluded.

May screwed up by appointing the most limited of them to negotiate. David Davies sat down with his counterparts for a couple of hours over 2 years. Meanwhile the tory party was engaged in a discussion with itself on what brexit should look like. After all nobody wanted the approaching nuclear winter.

And the EU sat by politely watching the circus unfold.

If we had a credible opposition it would be straightforward thing to sort out. But Corbyn is himself a quiet brexiter and is conflicted.

Parliament cant sort it so the obvious move is to put the deal to the people.

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why dont you read threads before blundering in ?

And you were giving distorted information. Like you always do.

You're legendary on USMB.

You just got busted you nasty piece of work.
You havent even read my posting you stupid cow,

 

[Mindful]

I'm Belgian and it always kind of baffled me that no one in Britain on the leave side seemed to have thought it all the way through. Of course I don't speak completely objectively but it was pretty obvious that the British negotiating position would be extremely weak. The EU has way more incentive to make leaving it painful than making huge concessions to a country that already had pretty big concessions when they were in. These guys that pushed for it were in the end politicians to. What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Most of them have been dreaming of brexit for years. It has become a mantra. It has torn the tories apart since thatchers days.

There are several groupings.

Those who have a romanticized world view and dream of Britannia ruling the waves again.

Those who long to break free of EU protections so that they can deregulate everything and turn us into a capitalist paradise.

Those who have genuine concerns about the EU.

And Boris Jonson who sees it as the issue that would make him Prime Minister.

Considering the time they have been moaning you would think that they had a plan of some sort.

But no. Up until recently they still believed that we held all the cards in the debate. Deluded.

May screwed up by appointing the most limited of them to negotiate. David Davies sat down with his counterparts for a couple of hours over 2 years. Meanwhile the tory party was engaged in a discussion with itself on what brexit should look like. After all nobody wanted the approaching nuclear winter.

And the EU sat by politely watching the circus unfold.

If we had a credible opposition it would be straightforward thing to sort out. But Corbyn is himself a quiet brexiter and is conflicted.

Parliament cant sort it so the obvious move is to put the deal to the people.

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why dont you read threads before blundering in ?

And you were giving distorted information. Like you always do.

You're legendary on USMB.

You just got busted you nasty piece of work.
You havent even read my posting you stupid cow,

When you fly into a rage, and resort to that use of language, then you have no argument.

 

[Olde Europe]

Well there you go. Remain tories have struck again.

What have they done now?

Aw...

You mean their being stuck with May to prevent a Corbyn government?

Well there you go. Remain tories have struck again.

Or not.

Didn't I tell you not to overdose on the sarcasm pills?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Well there you go. Remain tories have struck again.

What have they done now?

Aw...

You mean their being stuck with May to prevent a Corbyn government?

Well there you go. Remain tories have struck again.

Or not.

Didn't I tell you not to overdose on the sarcasm pills?

I got a text telling me that they had been beaten. Duff info. Like the brexit campaign !

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Most of them have been dreaming of brexit for years. It has become a mantra. It has torn the tories apart since thatchers days.

There are several groupings.

Those who have a romanticized world view and dream of Britannia ruling the waves again.

Those who long to break free of EU protections so that they can deregulate everything and turn us into a capitalist paradise.

Those who have genuine concerns about the EU.

And Boris Jonson who sees it as the issue that would make him Prime Minister.

Considering the time they have been moaning you would think that they had a plan of some sort.

But no. Up until recently they still believed that we held all the cards in the debate. Deluded.

May screwed up by appointing the most limited of them to negotiate. David Davies sat down with his counterparts for a couple of hours over 2 years. Meanwhile the tory party was engaged in a discussion with itself on what brexit should look like. After all nobody wanted the approaching nuclear winter.

And the EU sat by politely watching the circus unfold.

If we had a credible opposition it would be straightforward thing to sort out. But Corbyn is himself a quiet brexiter and is conflicted.

Parliament cant sort it so the obvious move is to put the deal to the people.

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why dont you read threads before blundering in ?

And you were giving distorted information. Like you always do.

You're legendary on USMB.

You just got busted you nasty piece of work.
You havent even read my posting you stupid cow,

When you fly into a rage, and resort to that use of language, then you have no argument.

Actually I do. You are the one who hurls accusations around before reading the posts.

 

[Mindful]

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why dont you read threads before blundering in ?

And you were giving distorted information. Like you always do.

You're legendary on USMB.

You just got busted you nasty piece of work.
You havent even read my posting you stupid cow,

When you fly into a rage, and resort to that use of language, then you have no argument.

Actually I do. You are the one who hurls accusations around before reading the posts.

I should know if I read the posts or not. Your twisting the narrative jumps out at every turn,

 

[Olde Europe]

I got a text telling me that they had been beaten. Duff info. Like the brexit campaign !

On a related note, no-deal Brexit leads right to paradise. Also of note, May huddling with other parties' front-benchers over the weekend will solve that puzzle in no time. Oh, not to forget, the EU will agree to whatever deal May can push through the Commons. Texts are pouring in, really...

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I got a text telling me that they had been beaten. Duff info. Like the brexit campaign !

On a related note, no-deal Brexit leads right to paradise. Also of note, May huddling with other parties' front-benchers over the weekend will solve that puzzle in no time. Oh, not to forget, the EU will agree to whatever deal May can push through the Commons. Texts are pouring in, really...

The no-deal vote will be the big one that decides if Theresa May survives

Peston reckons there are around 20 in the actual government who will vote to banish "no deal". Given that the loudest voices are tories outside the government then that should kill off that nonsense.
Early reports back from these cross party meetings are that May is just reiterating her deal in a softer voice.

 

[Mindful]

 

[Olde Europe]

The no-deal vote will be the big one that decides if Theresa May survives

Peston reckons there are around 20 in the actual government who will vote to banish "no deal". Given that the loudest voices are tories outside the government then that should kill off that nonsense.
Early reports back from these cross party meetings are that May is just reiterating her deal in a softer voice.

Yep, it seems, things are getting very, very complicated over the next two weeks or so. May, duty bound to deliver on something she can sell as Brexit, doesn't really budge, and Parliament seems too divided to get behind any one solution that wouldn't wreak havoc on the British economy and Northern Ireland. So, she insists on keeping the threat of "no deal" to push her own deal through. For now, I am waiting for Parliament to nail shut that "no deal" trap door that would open by default on January 29. What do you expect? Will they succeed in this?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Monday might be interesting.She has to unveil Plan B to be debated. she has tried a middle ground and been trounced so I wonder if she will sway one way or the other ?

Her deal was basically a con designed to postpone any nastiness in the province. Now she has to resolve that issue in 2 days when she has had 2 years grappling with it. Not going to happen.

So I would expect the vote on the 29th to close off no deal and then she goes back to Brussels to ask for more time. I suspect that they may grant her that this time.

Once she gets that 6 months (?) she has to decide on a referendum or an election. My preference would be for a referendum, parliament can, but should not, overturn the result of the first referendum.

But, then again, she may shock us all.

 

[danielpalos]

Much ado about nothing for an Island.

Better solutions at lower cost, not nothing but repeal!

 

[Olde Europe]

Monday might be interesting.She has to unveil Plan B to be debated. she has tried a middle ground and been trounced so I wonder if she will sway one way or the other ?

Her deal was basically a con designed to postpone any nastiness in the province. Now she has to resolve that issue in 2 days when she has had 2 years grappling with it. Not going to happen.

So I would expect the vote on the 29th to close off no deal and then she goes back to Brussels to ask for more time. I suspect that they may grant her that this time.

Once she gets that 6 months (?) she has to decide on a referendum or an election. My preference would be for a referendum, parliament can, but should not, overturn the result of the first referendum.

But, then again, she may shock us all.

Good points, but I am not sure I agree. The EU wants this kerfuffle to end, one way or another. So, they will grant an extension only if there's a deal to which the EU might agree AND which she can demonstrably get through Parliament. With Corbyn refusing to talk to her unless she takes "no deal" off the table, I cannot see how such a deal can be worked out. Without Labour getting behind it, there's no majority for anything. Also, from a purely democratic point of view, negotiating such a momentous agreement without all major political factions involved, would create a huge, huge societal fault line - it was May's most monumental error of strategy right from the beginning.

Also, I cannot see May sacrificing either of the "red lines" upon which see insisted, and which, according to her, amount to what Brexit is all about.

In a way, this is the clearest demonstration as to when NOT to call for a referendum. With a population so closely divided, Parliament is best placed to work on a compromise, giving all factions some of what they want. The binary popular decision, mandating to give just over half of the population everything, nothing to the other half, doesn't resolve things, and stands in the way of Parliament trying to reconcile differing objectives. That's what we've been made to behold during the years since.

 

[Mindful]

Please don't go.


Please stay.

Im
Leading German figures have written to the UK asking it to stay in the EU.

The letter, published in the Times, is signed by 31 people, including the leader of the Christian Democratic Union - and likely successor to Angela Merkel - Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer and former Arsenal goalkeeper Jens Lehmann.

They cited post-work pints and pantomime as beloved British habits.

But the UK's role in post-war Europe is the focus of the signatories calling for Britain to stay.

"Without your great nation, this Continent would not be what it is today," they wrote.

The letter - also signed by the chief executive of Airbus, Thomas Enders, and punk singer Campino - said the UK had helped define the European Union as a community of "freedom and prosperity".

"After the horrors of the Second World War, Britain did not give up on us," it continued.

"It has welcomed Germany back as a sovereign nation and a European power.

"This we, as Germans, have not forgotten and we are grateful."

The signatories said that they "respect the choice" of British people who want to leave the EU and, if the country wants to leave for good, "it will always have friends in Germany and Europe".

Top Germans plead with UK to stay in EU

 

[Mindful]

^ 'Friends across the Channel'
The letter concluded: "Britain has become part of who we are as Europeans and therefore we would miss Britain.

"We would miss the legendary British black humour and going to the pub after work hours to drink an ale. We would miss tea with milk and driving on the left-hand side of the road. And we would miss seeing the panto at Christmas.

"But more than anything else, we would miss the British people - our friends across the Channel.

"Therefore Britons should know, from the bottom of our hearts, we want them to stay."

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Monday might be interesting.She has to unveil Plan B to be debated. she has tried a middle ground and been trounced so I wonder if she will sway one way or the other ?

Her deal was basically a con designed to postpone any nastiness in the province. Now she has to resolve that issue in 2 days when she has had 2 years grappling with it. Not going to happen.

So I would expect the vote on the 29th to close off no deal and then she goes back to Brussels to ask for more time. I suspect that they may grant her that this time.

Once she gets that 6 months (?) she has to decide on a referendum or an election. My preference would be for a referendum, parliament can, but should not, overturn the result of the first referendum.

But, then again, she may shock us all.

Good points, but I am not sure I agree. The EU wants this kerfuffle to end, one way or another. So, they will grant an extension only if there's a deal to which the EU might agree AND which she can demonstrably get through Parliament. With Corbyn refusing to talk to her unless she takes "no deal" off the table, I cannot see how such a deal can be worked out. Without Labour getting behind it, there's no majority for anything. Also, from a purely democratic point of view, negotiating such a momentous agreement without all major political factions involved, would create a huge, huge societal fault line - it was May's most monumental error of strategy right from the beginning.

Also, I cannot see May sacrificing either of the "red lines" upon which see insisted, and which, according to her, amount to what Brexit is all about.

In a way, this is the clearest demonstration as to when NOT to call for a referendum. With a population so closely divided, Parliament is best placed to work on a compromise, giving all factions some of what they want. The binary popular decision, mandating to give just over half of the population everything, nothing to the other half, doesn't resolve things, and stands in the way of Parliament trying to reconcile differing objectives. That's what we've been made to behold during the years since.

Now Theresa May considers rewriting the Good Friday Agreement - Independent.ie

British Prime Minister Theresa May is considering offering to amend the Good Friday Agreement in a desperate attempt to avoid a no-deal Brexit.

She has effectively abandoned attempts to negotiate a cross-party deal to solve the Brexit deadlock in Westminster.

Mrs May will today update Parliament on her attempts to draw up a so-called "Plan B" for Brexit following cross-party talks in Westminster - and discussions with other EU leaders.

In a phone call with her cabinet, Mrs May said her focus was now on winning over Conservative MPs and the DUP by rewording or dropping the controversial backstop to avoid a hard Border on the island of Ireland.

One of the proposals under consideration is rewriting the 1998 Good Friday Agreement to assure Ireland that the UK is committed to no hard Border after the UK leaves the EU in March.

The "New IRA" set off bombs in Derry over the weekend. I do wonder if this woman should be sectioned, Even trump would not consider this.

 

[Olde Europe]

Now Theresa May considers rewriting the Good Friday Agreement - Independent.ie

British Prime Minister Theresa May is considering offering to amend the Good Friday Agreement in a desperate attempt to avoid a no-deal Brexit.

She has effectively abandoned attempts to negotiate a cross-party deal to solve the Brexit deadlock in Westminster.

Mrs May will today update Parliament on her attempts to draw up a so-called "Plan B" for Brexit following cross-party talks in Westminster - and discussions with other EU leaders.

In a phone call with her cabinet, Mrs May said her focus was now on winning over Conservative MPs and the DUP by rewording or dropping the controversial backstop to avoid a hard Border on the island of Ireland.

One of the proposals under consideration is rewriting the 1998 Good Friday Agreement to assure Ireland that the UK is committed to no hard Border after the UK leaves the EU in March.

The "New IRA" set off bombs in Derry over the weekend. I do wonder if this woman should be sectioned, Even trump would not consider this.

That would be like raping Mo Mowlam, posthumously.

On the other hand:

The Daily Telegraph reported the prime minister was even considering an attempt to amend the Good Friday Agreement, but a Downing Street source told The Independent the claim was “nonsense”.​

Whatever... This Independent.ie article is remarkably badly written, no?

One of the proposals under consideration is rewriting the 1998 Good Friday Agreement to assure Ireland that the UK is committed to no hard Border after the UK leaves the EU in March.​

They are rewriting the GFA to assure Ireland? This is grotesque nonsense.

Downing Street reeks of desperation at the time, or so it seems to me.

Oh, if something like the GFA stood in Trump's way, he'd trample over it with not a moment's hesitation.