Largest government defeat since the war (apparently)

[Olde Europe]

Good article.

What Is the Irish Backstop, and Why Is It Holding Up Brexit?

It would appear, there's yet another round of May's never-ending debacle:

May had previously said that she had “a substantial and sustainable majority” among MPs for her approach, after parliament voted in January for her to seek “alternative arrangements” to the Northern Ireland backstop from the EU and separately against a no-deal Brexit.

The government motion simply restated parliament’s position, but the hardline Eurosceptics balked at the idea of endorsing a strategy that takes a no-deal Brexit off the table. MPs will next get a chance to debate and vote on May’s EU strategy on 27 February.

The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, demanded that May come to the House of Commons to explain her Brexit plan in the absence of parliamentary support for her approach.

“Tonight’s vote shows there is no majority for the prime minister’s course of action in dealing with Brexit,” he said. “Yet again her government has been defeated. The government cannot kee[p] on ignoring parliament or ploughing on towards 29 March without a coherent plan.”​

So, why on earth would May put that already-approved position up for a vote, again? Just to reap, raw nerves all around, having this already-approved position now rejected, her standing with the EU further diminished? The blood-letting is meanwhile such that slight doubts about May even being alive would be justified.

 

[Olde Europe]

Good article.

What Is the Irish Backstop, and Why Is It Holding Up Brexit?

The last time, May was defeated by a margin of 230 votes, today the margin was merely 149 votes. So, things are looking up - while the string of defeats continues.

How does this woman even walk, having both her feet cut out from beneath her? A question for the ages. Nonetheless, the UK is limping towards crashing out, while next to no one wants to crash out. Talk about tragedy - one of historic proportions - unfolding while the world looks on, because some goofs think they get to kick the "darkies" out, and due to sheer, utter democratic dysfunction.

Darn if I knew how the UK's democratic institutions could survive a self-inflicted defeat of these proportions.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Good article.

What Is the Irish Backstop, and Why Is It Holding Up Brexit?

The last time, May was defeated by a margin of 230 votes, today the margin was merely 149 votes. So, things are looking up - while the string of defeats continues.

How does this woman even walk, having both her feet cut out from beneath her? A question for the ages. Nonetheless, the UK is limping towards crashing out, while next to no one wants to crash out. Talk about tragedy - one of historic proportions - unfolding while the world looks on, because some goofs think they get to kick the "darkies" out, and due to sheer, utter democratic dysfunction.

Darn if I knew how the UK's democratic institutions could survive a self-inflicted defeat of these proportions.

She is getting there slowly. If only these MPs had enough faith in the voters to give them a second chance.

 

[Olde Europe]

She is getting there slowly. If only these MPs had enough faith in the voters to give them a second chance.

I don't see how she's "getting there"; I'd be surprised if the House would so much as consider her deal once more, let alone vote on it.

Moreover, isn't "faith in the voters" un-British, or something? Voters are just one side in this equation, the other side is a press that will turn the country upside down, inside out, and tear it to shreds over an eventual new referendum. If you happened to abhor the last one, you will, I think, find it was a cakewalk compared to the one ahead, when the Brexiteers' seething, red-hot anger over having their prior vote discounted meets the Remainers' desperation, and racism and intra-mural warfare rear their ugly heads. Really, Tommy, as much as I'd like to see another referendum, and Remain win, getting there will require an eminently strong stomach, and determined and wise leadership widely considered above reproach. Can't remember when I have last seen that one.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

She is getting there slowly. If only these MPs had enough faith in the voters to give them a second chance.

I don't see how she's "getting there"; I'd be surprised if the House would so much as consider her deal once more, let alone vote on it.

Moreover, isn't "faith in the voters" un-British, or something? Voters are just one side in this equation, the other side is a press that will turn the country upside down, inside out, and tear it to shreds over an eventual new referendum. If you happened to abhor the last one, you will, I think, find it was a cakewalk compared to the one ahead, when the Brexiteers' seething, red-hot anger over having their prior vote discounted meets the Remainers' desperation, and racism and intra-mural warfare rear their ugly heads. Really, Tommy, as much as I'd like to see another referendum, and Remain win, getting there will require an eminently strong stomach, and determined and wise leadership widely considered above reproach. Can't remember when I have last seen that one.

Lack of leadership has been the problem from the start. I cant see a clear path myself yet either.
They have rejected "the deal" last night and today they will reject "no deal".
That should lead to an extension.
What then ?

 

[ESay]

Well, they have voted no to "no deal". So, as far as I can understand, Brexit wont happen on 29 March. There will be some extension. But what is the point of it? It is hardly believable that the EU will offer significant concessions.

If there isnt any deal after the added time, then only one option remains - second referendum. If people vote yes - hard Brexit, if no - Britain remains.

 

[Mindful]

 

[Blues Man]

May has RAF plane on standby as she faces biggest parliamentary defeat since WW2

In the next hour.
Estimates range from 80 to 200.
May already knows she cant win and there is an RAF plane warming up to take her to Brussels to beg for more concessions.
Taking back control my arse.

I have a bottle of Sancerre chilled to accompany the debacle.

A politician losing a seat is not a "government defeat"

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Well, they have voted no to "no deal". So, as far as I can understand, Brexit wont happen on 29 March. There will be some extension. But what is the point of it? It is hardly believable that the EU will offer significant concessions.

If there isnt any deal after the added time, then only one option remains - second referendum. If people vote yes - hard Brexit, if no - Britain remains.

I think the road is now towards a second referendum. She has tried twice to get her deal through parliament and failed. The EU wont budge on it and why should they. They will vote for an extension tonight and then that time should be used to sort a second referendum. I think she has to put that on the table for the EU to agree the extension. I would like to see the remainers on all sides work together on this.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

May has RAF plane on standby as she faces biggest parliamentary defeat since WW2

In the next hour.
Estimates range from 80 to 200.
May already knows she cant win and there is an RAF plane warming up to take her to Brussels to beg for more concessions.
Taking back control my arse.

I have a bottle of Sancerre chilled to accompany the debacle.

A politician losing a seat is not a "government defeat"

Who is losing their seat ? Puzzled.

 

[Olde Europe]

Who is losing their seat ? Puzzled.

You both. Difference is, you know it.

 

[Olde Europe]

Who is losing their seat ? Puzzled.

You both. Difference is, you know it.

There are way more who could be described as "puzzled". "Stumped" may be even better, after a series of indicative votes:

Parliament takes back control over the Brexit process, only to find out they have no idea what to do with it:


* Customs union - For: 264 Against: 272

* Confirmatory referendum - For: 268 Against: 295

* No-deal exit on 12 April - For: 160 Against: 400 <<<<<<<<

* Common Market 2.0 - For: 188 Against: 283

* EFTA and EEA membership - For: 65 Against: 377

* Revoking Article [50] to avoid no deal - For: 184 Against: 293 (SNP)

* Labour's Brexit plan - For: 237 Against: 307

* Malthouse Plan B - For: 139 Against: 422

That's zero hits out of eight tries. How hard can it be, actually, to find that door out? The Parliament of "No, NO, but hell NOOOO!" continues its losing streak.

The most interesting item:

* No-deal exit on 12 April - For: 160 Against: 400 <<<<<<<<

That's a significant, but not particularly large, minority. That is to say, the diehard boneheads, rascals and mouth-breathers. Still, their votes are what's missing to get one or the other reasonable option available over the finish line.

And now, look what happened:

Last week, the Telegraph reported that a number of Conservatives had opened “covert talks” with the far-right governments of Hungary, Italy, and Poland to make use of their veto powers as EU member nations and block the prime minister’s request for an extension to Article 50, thereby producing a no-deal exit—which some Tories considered to be better than the currently proposed deal. The efforts taken by Tory MPs and activists to compel foreign governments to undermine their prime minister were remarkable. Three Tory MPs, including two former cabinet members, flew to Warsaw earlier this month to petition the nationalists of the Polish government’s Law and Justice party, who have been widely accused of eroding democratic norms and abridging the rule of law in their country, to disrupt the withdrawal process on behalf of Britain’s Euroskeptics, the Guardian reported.

At the same time, leaders of the Leave.EU campaign allegedly made their way to Veneto to entreat the anti-institutionalists of Lega, Matteo Salvini’s party of incendiary populists and Euroskeptics, to lay down a veto as well. Those covert efforts were matched with public goading from prominent Conservative MPs, including Daniel Kawczynski and European Research Group (ERG) chief Jacob Rees-Mogg, to break the fragile consensus of the EU 27 and force the U.K. out of the EU without a deal as early as this Friday. “If true, then Vive la France,” tweeted Rees-Mogg in response to reports that Macron had been considering a veto prior to a European Council summit last Thursday.​

Wow. Just Wow. Tory MPs and other misfits traveling abroad, negotiating with foreign governments in order to undermine their own PM. Don't the British have a word for "defenestration"?

The only option to get even close to winning was "Customs Union", falling just eight votes short. Maybe, maybe, maybe that's the door they'll squeeze through in the end, and just barely avoid to crash out.

 

[ESay]

Who is losing their seat ? Puzzled.

You both. Difference is, you know it.

There are way more who could be described as "puzzled". "Stumped" may be even better, after a series of indicative votes:

Parliament takes back control over the Brexit process, only to find out they have no idea what to do with it:


* Customs union - For: 264 Against: 272

* Confirmatory referendum - For: 268 Against: 295

* No-deal exit on 12 April - For: 160 Against: 400 <<<<<<<<

* Common Market 2.0 - For: 188 Against: 283

* EFTA and EEA membership - For: 65 Against: 377

* Revoking Article [50] to avoid no deal - For: 184 Against: 293 (SNP)

* Labour's Brexit plan - For: 237 Against: 307

* Malthouse Plan B - For: 139 Against: 422

That's zero hits out of eight tries. How hard can it be, actually, to find that door out? The Parliament of "No, NO, but hell NOOOO!" continues its losing streak.

The most interesting item:

* No-deal exit on 12 April - For: 160 Against: 400 <<<<<<<<

That's a significant, but not particularly large, minority. That is to say, the diehard boneheads, rascals and mouth-breathers. Still, their votes are what's missing to get one or the other reasonable option available over the finish line.

And now, look what happened:

Last week, the Telegraph reported that a number of Conservatives had opened “covert talks” with the far-right governments of Hungary, Italy, and Poland to make use of their veto powers as EU member nations and block the prime minister’s request for an extension to Article 50, thereby producing a no-deal exit—which some Tories considered to be better than the currently proposed deal. The efforts taken by Tory MPs and activists to compel foreign governments to undermine their prime minister were remarkable. Three Tory MPs, including two former cabinet members, flew to Warsaw earlier this month to petition the nationalists of the Polish government’s Law and Justice party, who have been widely accused of eroding democratic norms and abridging the rule of law in their country, to disrupt the withdrawal process on behalf of Britain’s Euroskeptics, the Guardian reported.

At the same time, leaders of the Leave.EU campaign allegedly made their way to Veneto to entreat the anti-institutionalists of Lega, Matteo Salvini’s party of incendiary populists and Euroskeptics, to lay down a veto as well. Those covert efforts were matched with public goading from prominent Conservative MPs, including Daniel Kawczynski and European Research Group (ERG) chief Jacob Rees-Mogg, to break the fragile consensus of the EU 27 and force the U.K. out of the EU without a deal as early as this Friday. “If true, then Vive la France,” tweeted Rees-Mogg in response to reports that Macron had been considering a veto prior to a European Council summit last Thursday.​

Wow. Just Wow. Tory MPs and other misfits traveling abroad, negotiating with foreign governments in order to undermine their own PM. Don't the British have a word for "defenestration"?

The only option to get even close to winning was "Customs Union", falling just eight votes short. Maybe, maybe, maybe that's the door they'll squeeze through in the end, and just barely avoid to crash out.

What is interesting is that the vote which has the best yes/no ratio seems to resemble the most the deal proposed by May.

 

[cnm]

I can't see there being anything less than a de facto border in the Irish Sea.

 

[ESay]

I can't see there being anything less than a de facto border in the Irish Sea.

Britain can remain in the Customs union. In this case there won't be a need in any border.

 

[cnm]

Britain can remain in the Customs union.

Needs Parliament to agree to a deal for that to happen. Can't see it. Too, what a result, becoming rule takers.

 

[ESay]

Britain can remain in the Customs union.

Needs Parliament to agree to a deal for that to happen. Can't see it. Too, what a result, becoming rule takers.

I think they will agree to it. They don't have a choice.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

For lovers of chaos this is a great time to be alive. I give up trying to second guess this process.

On a basic level if parliament cant do the job then it should be dissolved and lets have an election. Or a referendum.
No dealers only have 140 votes so its down to them to compromise,

 

[Olde Europe]

For lovers of chaos this is a great time to be alive. I give up trying to second guess this process.

On a basic level if parliament cant do the job then it should be dissolved and lets have an election. Or a referendum.
No dealers only have 140 votes so its down to them to compromise,

I have to admit I am quite torn about this. On the one hand, "chaos" is probably an accurate description, and the Commons' almost comically helpless reaction after they've been made aware that all proposals failed to garner a majority seems to indicate exactly that.

On the other hand, that's democracy in action, and arguably at its finest. That is, not the scripted power play we usually see when a determined majority rams through their agenda without much by way of debate, and everyone else gets run over. So, we have a deeply divided country and an equally divided House of Commons trying to resolve a set of very weighty questions about the future of the country. I know, I know, it's the way things usually go to post disparaging comments about the chattering folk "up there" who couldn't get anything worthwhile done. I for one, while deeply concerned, remain optimistic that this whole brouhaha will ultimately turn out to become Parliament's finest hour during a decisive moment in British history. Democracy is messy, it is supposed to be, and, with Berkow in the lead, Parliament might well assert itself and do itself proud in the end.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Meanwhile.in the province.........................
Police in Northern Ireland 'as prepared as possible' for potential Brexit threat

Police have received an extra £16m in funding to prepare for Brexit and will begin recruiting an extra 308 officers soon.

Police in Northern Ireland say they are "as prepared as it is possible to be" for Brexit, given the threat of terrorists and criminals seeking to exploit the border.

Deputy Chief Constable Stephen Martin told a policing board seminar in Belfast that the "unique situation" of the land border on the island had "focused minds".