Largest government defeat since the war (apparently)

[Olde Europe]

The "New IRA" set off bombs in Derry over the weekend. I do wonder if this woman should be sectioned, Even trump would not consider this.

So, after this day, what have we got?

There was the backstop, securing a border-free Irish island. Now, the Brady Amendment passed in parliament demanding the backstop be re-negotiated and replaced with “alternative arrangements”, which May promises to do. Whatever that may mean, May assured us, these “alternative arrangements” will - wait for it - secure a border-free Irish island. I don't know what I would find more devastating, her believing that nonsense of the stark duplicity of her assurances.

After the most catastrophic government defeat a few weeks back, now there's the biggest self-defeating catastrophe lurking, in the form of upending and destroying a crucial pillar of the Good Friday Agreement.

Either the UK remains within the customs / trade union, and the border problem goes away. Or she is without, then there's going to be a hard border, either between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. There is no way to escape that logic, and pretending, as May does, there is, is just insane.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The "New IRA" set off bombs in Derry over the weekend. I do wonder if this woman should be sectioned, Even trump would not consider this.

So, after this day, what have we got?

There was the backstop, securing a border-free Irish island. Now, the Brady Amendment passed in parliament demanding the backstop be re-negotiated and replaced with “alternative arrangements”, which May promises to do. Whatever that may mean, May assured us, these “alternative arrangements” will - wait for it - secure a border-free Irish island. I don't know what I would find more devastating, her believing that nonsense of the stark duplicity of her assurances.

After the most catastrophic government defeat a few weeks back, now there's the biggest self-defeating catastrophe lurking, in the form of upending and destroying a crucial pillar of the Good Friday Agreement.

Either the UK remains within the customs / trade union, and the border problem goes away. Or she is without, then there's going to be a hard border, either between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. There is no way to escape that logic, and pretending, as May does, there is, is just insane.

She has to decide who she wants to placate more. The frothing loons in her own party or the Catholic community who signed a treaty with the UK in good faith.
They deny that brexit is causing this but it does create the environment for them to grow.
'IRA' claims responsibility for Londonderry car bomb | Reuters

If the Brits rip up this treaty there will never be another one. Who would trust us ?

 

[Olde Europe]

She has to decide who she wants to placate more. The frothing loons in her own party or the Catholic community who signed a treaty with the UK in good faith.
They deny that brexit is causing this but it does create the environment for them to grow.
'IRA' claims responsibility for Londonderry car bomb | Reuters

If the Brits rip up this treaty there will never be another one. Who would trust us ?

It would seem she's decided that saving her deal, no matter the cost to others, is her guiding light, and placating the "frothing loons" in her own party is the way to go. It also seems that the frothing loons and the more reasonable ones among the Tories have now decided to rally behind the renegotiated deal, finding solace in those nebulous "alternative arrangements", which look like "alternative facts" to whoever beholds them. It also seems there's help on the way to preserve the UK's trustworthiness in the form of the EU making it utterly clear, that the deal is not renegotiable, and the Irish making it equally clear that the backstop is here to stay.

So, now comes the zinger: Assuming the EU holds the line, and there's not even a shred of a hope for a majority in parliament for the current deal, here comes the no-deal, crash-out Brexit, including a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland starting on March 30.

How's that for the carriage of history narrowly avoiding to fall off a bridge on one side, and then crashing right trough the railing on the other side?


All considered, the last shoe on that has yet to drop. Britain, to be sure, has two tumultuous months ahead, and, if I get my wish, parliament would wrestle control over Brexit from May, ministers' resignations galore, and go for whatever they can rally behind. In a way, I am still hoping for a shining hour for parliament and democracy, and people's will carrying the day.

 

[Yarddog]

Wow !

200 for and 432 agin.

There has never been such a crushing defeat.

As we speak Mrs May is flying to Belgium in search of friends. She may struggle to find one.

Brexit is imploding ,Praise the Lord !!

This is why I prefer Iceland over Britain any day. They are an even smaller Island but they have bigger balls than you guys, at least not letting someone from Brussels tell them what is a thought crime or how many fish they are allowed to catch. They play a better and more exciting brand of soccer than Britain as well. Though, there once was a time after the great war England had a chance to do something with itself.

 

[Yarddog]

I'm Belgian and it always kind of baffled me that no one in Britain on the leave side seemed to have thought it all the way through. Of course I don't speak completely objectively but it was pretty obvious that the British negotiating position would be extremely weak. The EU has way more incentive to make leaving it painful than making huge concessions to a country that already had pretty big concessions when they were in. These guys that pushed for it were in the end politicians to. What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Most of them have been dreaming of brexit for years. It has become a mantra. It has torn the tories apart since thatchers days.

There are several groupings.

Those who have a romanticized world view and dream of Britannia ruling the waves again.

Those who long to break free of EU protections so that they can deregulate everything and turn us into a capitalist paradise.

Those who have genuine concerns about the EU.

And Boris Jonson who sees it as the issue that would make him Prime Minister.

Considering the time they have been moaning you would think that they had a plan of some sort.

But no. Up until recently they still believed that we held all the cards in the debate. Deluded.

May screwed up by appointing the most limited of them to negotiate. David Davies sat down with his counterparts for a couple of hours over 2 years. Meanwhile the tory party was engaged in a discussion with itself on what brexit should look like. After all nobody wanted the approaching nuclear winter.

And the EU sat by politely watching the circus unfold.

If we had a credible opposition it would be straightforward thing to sort out. But Corbyn is himself a quiet brexiter and is conflicted.

Parliament cant sort it so the obvious move is to put the deal to the people.

What lies you tell.

Nothing to do with Britannia Rules the Waves.

I watched a young guy from Bristol on Sky News earlier, giving his reasoned and rational reasons for leaving the EU.

How you must hate Britain.

Sigh ! The poster asked about the leadership and not some bloke in Bristol.

What was their objective? Do you have any insight? Not talking about the people who voted for it, just the leadership for the movement?

Why don't you read threads before blundering in ?

And you were giving distorted information. Like you always do.

You're legendary on USMB.

You just got busted you nasty piece of work.
You havent even read my posting you stupid cow,

That's not nice at all Tommy. maybe before you go calling someone a 'Stupid Cow', take a long moment to look in the mirror first. That phrase is often considered a sexist remark in Britain which Is why I'm sort of surprised you'd find a liberal using it.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

She has to decide who she wants to placate more. The frothing loons in her own party or the Catholic community who signed a treaty with the UK in good faith.
They deny that brexit is causing this but it does create the environment for them to grow.
'IRA' claims responsibility for Londonderry car bomb | Reuters

If the Brits rip up this treaty there will never be another one. Who would trust us ?

It would seem she's decided that saving her deal, no matter the cost to others, is her guiding light, and placating the "frothing loons" in her own party is the way to go. It also seems that the frothing loons and the more reasonable ones among the Tories have now decided to rally behind the renegotiated deal, finding solace in those nebulous "alternative arrangements", which look like "alternative facts" to whoever beholds them. It also seems there's help on the way to preserve the UK's trustworthiness in the form of the EU making it utterly clear, that the deal is not renegotiable, and the Irish making it equally clear that the backstop is here to stay.

So, now comes the zinger: Assuming the EU holds the line, and there's not even a shred of a hope for a majority in parliament for the current deal, here comes the no-deal, crash-out Brexit, including a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland starting on March 30.

How's that for the carriage of history narrowly avoiding to fall off a bridge on one side, and then crashing right trough the railing on the other side?


All considered, the last shoe on that has yet to drop. Britain, to be sure, has two tumultuous months ahead, and, if I get my wish, parliament would wrestle control over Brexit from May, ministers' resignations galore, and go for whatever they can rally behind. In a wt ll soray, I am still hoping for a shining hour for parliament and democracy, and people's will carrying the day.

The EU understands that you cant have brexit and no border in Ireland. Brexit is specifically against freedom of movement.
I think that May understands this as well and is just looking to kick the can down the road.

There is no solution to the Irish border and all they are saying is that some yet to be invented technology will sort it out. That always works well as a basis for ripping up a treaty.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Wow !

200 for and 432 agin.

There has never been such a crushing defeat.

As we speak Mrs May is flying to Belgium in search of friends. She may struggle to find one.

Brexit is imploding ,Praise the Lord !!

This is why I prefer Iceland over Britain any day. They are an even smaller Island but they have bigger balls than you guys, at least not letting someone from Brussels tell them what is a thought crime or how many fish they are allowed to catch. They play a better and more exciting brand of soccer than Britain as well. Though, there once was a time after the great war England had a chance to do something with itself.

Shhhh! Adults are talking here.

 

[Olde Europe]

The EU understands that you cant have brexit and no border in Ireland. Brexit is specifically against freedom of movement.
I think that May understands this as well and is just looking to kick the can down the road.

There is no solution to the Irish border and all they are saying is that some yet to be invented technology will sort it out. That always works well as a basis for ripping up a treaty.

Everyone in Westminster, I am convinced, understands that.

Everyone, except the hardcore Tory Brexiteers and the DUP, try to avoid no-deal Brexit, and a hard border in Ireland.

The irony, or so I see it, is that despite the above the UK drifts towards a hard border and a no-deal Brexit. Here is how that works:

May, refusing any extension, is obviously running down the clock, aiming a "no deal" gun at the British population, automatically set to fire on March 30, until there is no other option left other than hastily to approve her deal. If that deal (the same pig parliament rejected previously, with by then some lipstick on it) falls through in parliament at the last minute, "no deal" it is.

Corbyn, with no apparent aim other than milking May's Brexit troubles so as to bring about an early election, will have almost as much pig shit on his face as May in case that happens. He has to know that the UK to remain within the EU customs and trade union - the least disruptive way to Brexit, not really a Brexit by any standards - isn't going to happen.

Or so it would appear to me...

 

[danielpalos]

better solutions at lower cost; Persons on an Island, have a Good excuse.

 

[ESay]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

 

[ESay]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

What do you mean by advisory? The government can decide to exit without a deal or prolong negotiations?

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

What do you mean by advisory? The government can decide to exit without a deal or prolong negotiations?

Pretty much. The exit process was triggered by an act of parliament. It would need another one to stop it.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The EU understands that you cant have brexit and no border in Ireland. Brexit is specifically against freedom of movement.
I think that May understands this as well and is just looking to kick the can down the road.

There is no solution to the Irish border and all they are saying is that some yet to be invented technology will sort it out. That always works well as a basis for ripping up a treaty.

Everyone in Westminster, I am convinced, understands that.

Everyone, except the hardcore Tory Brexiteers and the DUP, try to avoid no-deal Brexit, and a hard border in Ireland.

The irony, or so I see it, is that despite the above the UK drifts towards a hard border and a no-deal Brexit. Here is how that works:

May, refusing any extension, is obviously running down the clock, aiming a "no deal" gun at the British population, automatically set to fire on March 30, until there is no other option left other than hastily to approve her deal. If that deal (the same pig parliament rejected previously, with by then some lipstick on it) falls through in parliament at the last minute, "no deal" it is.

Corbyn, with no apparent aim other than milking May's Brexit troubles so as to bring about an early election, will have almost as much pig shit on his face as May in case that happens. He has to know that the UK to remain within the EU customs and trade union - the least disruptive way to Brexit, not really a Brexit by any standards - isn't going to happen.

Or so it would appear to me...

May had a few hours of feeling good and now that has gone. There is only one answer to this and she is held hostage to people who dont give a shit what happens as long as they get to kick out a few "darkies".

Even the US gets it.

Resolution opposing hard Irish Border introduced in US Congress

 

[ESay]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

What do you mean by advisory? The government can decide to exit without a deal or prolong negotiations?

Pretty much. The exit process was triggered by an act of parliament. It would need another one to stop it.

But the point is that the parliament doesnt want to stop it.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

What do you mean by advisory? The government can decide to exit without a deal or prolong negotiations?

Pretty much. The exit process was triggered by an act of parliament. It would need another one to stop it.

But the point is that the parliament doesnt want to stop it.

I think that overall they do. They arent idiots and recognise the damage being caused. But they are also politicians and wont do anything until they absolutely have to. I hope that it isnt too late by then.

 

[Olde Europe]

May had a few hours of feeling good and now that has gone. There is only one answer to this and she is held hostage to people who dont give a shit what happens as long as they get to kick out a few "darkies".

Even the US gets it.

Resolution opposing hard Irish Border introduced in US Congress

Yep, the Irish-American community can be quite outspoken, and they watch closely and certainly get it.

I actually had never thought that May may drop the backstop, and replace it with nebulous assurances that are obviously fake. Really, I thought that's patently impossible.

 

[ESay]

The situation has become more ridiculous than before. The parliament forbade the exit without a deal, and at the same time it rejected to extend the date of Brexit.
I dont understand what will be if the deal isnt reached but the date has passed.

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

What do you mean by advisory? The government can decide to exit without a deal or prolong negotiations?

Pretty much. The exit process was triggered by an act of parliament. It would need another one to stop it.

But the point is that the parliament doesnt want to stop it.

I think that overall they do. They arent idiots and recognise the damage being caused. But they are also politicians and wont do anything until they absolutely have to. I hope that it isnt too late by then.

I see. So, you believe in a second referendum and think that Brexit can be stopped completely. Let's see. I dont think that this will be the case.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

The amendment they approved was "advisory". The one they rejected would have been backed by law. Its all "mute" though,as brexiters would say, the EU have already said that May can save the air fare.

What do you mean by advisory? The government can decide to exit without a deal or prolong negotiations?

Pretty much. The exit process was triggered by an act of parliament. It would need another one to stop it.

But the point is that the parliament doesnt want to stop it.

I think that overall they do. They arent idiots and recognise the damage being caused. But they are also politicians and wont do anything until they absolutely have to. I hope that it isnt too late by then.

I see. So, you believe in a second referendum and think that Brexit can be stopped completely. Let's see. I dont think that this will be the case.

Pretty much. I also share your doubts.

There are 3 scenarios -

# Mays deal which has been rejected by parliament.
# No deal which MPs have already shown they wont accept
# Another referendum to ask the people what they want.

The issue is whether the people who are blocking 1 and 2 cave in and accept them. They arent the same people either. Its very confusing.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Good article.

What Is the Irish Backstop, and Why Is It Holding Up Brexit?