Japan...? And Iraq?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Bullypulpit, Aug 24, 2007.

  1. Bullypulpit
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    Bullypulpit Senior Member

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    I really don't know where Chimpy McCokespoon...er...George Bush is getting the inspiration for his analogies, but they are reeeeeally bad.

    His comparison between post WWII Japan and Iraq is almost nonsensical. Let's look at a few facts..Shall we?

    Firstly, there was a <b>PLAN</b> for the occupation of Japan some three years before the representatives of of the Emperor signed the articles of surrender aboard the USS Missouri on August 28th, 1945. Contrast that with the Bush administration in its run up to the war with Iraq in which the Bush administration had no realistic plan and ignored the plans laid out by the State Department for a post invasion Iraq, which is detailed <a href=http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/fallows><b>HERE</b></a>

    Secondly, Japan was, and is, essentially a monoculture with centuries of social cohesion behind it. This social cohesion was, and is, entirely lacking in Iraq given its ethnic, religious and tribal fault lines. And we are now paying the price in blood and treasure for this bit of gross ignorance on the part of Bush and his administration.

    Thirdly, the civil government of Japan after its surrender was left intact...from the Emperor all the way down to the village headman. The Iraqi civil government was effectively dismantled after Saddam was toppled...de-Baathification and all that...and the Iraqi army was disbanded, throwing thousands of pissed off, armed men out onto the streets and left to their own devices.

    Finally, a charismatic and capable leader in the form of General Douglas MacArthur. He set the plans in motion and had the the democratic political structure that still functions today in place within three years. Contrast that with the more than four years of the US occupation of Iraq which has resulted in little more than a dysfunctional government more closely tied to Iran than the US and is lousy with members of Shi'ite militias more eager to settle scores with the former Sunni leaders than in establishing a stable democracy.

    So, does post-invasion Iraq bear <b>ANY</b> resemblance to post-WWII Japan? No. Bush, his cabinet and his speech writers need to start using history for the lessons it provides, not the propaganda nor the agenda they wish to further by the misrepresentation of that history.
     
  2. BaronVonBigmeat
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    BaronVonBigmeat Senior Member

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    I'm not terribly familiar with Japan, but I know in Germany Ludwig Erhard basically defied the american occupiers, and abolished a lot of shitty laws like price controls and so forth. The Marshall plan gets credit for their recovery, but it never more than like...3% of the total GDP. Unfortunately Iraq doesn't have any classical liberal figure like Erhard, and the Bush administration pays only lip service to free markets. Plus Iraq wasn't a settled industrialized country in the same sort of way that Germany was. It's a lot easier to keep the peace when people actually have something to lose.

    But my main fear is that the war advocates will take all this into consideration, and then want another invasion. Why, this time we'll do it right! Even if you can pull it off, it doesn't mean you should.
     
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  3. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    Ya, next time I suggest we save American lives. Nuke them, we can always drill through glass.

    I mean to hear tell we are an EVIL Empire, bent on world domination, terrorist to our core. Hey lets go with that.
     
  4. Bullypulpit
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    Bullypulpit Senior Member

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    How did we save American lives with the invasion and occupation of Iraq? Please, enlighten me...And provide links to support your claim.

    America IS NOT an "EVIL Empire". America is simply in the grips of an administration which CHOSE to invade Iraq for reasons which are, at best, questionable. At worst, these rationales were outright lies. The invasion of Iraq distracted American forces from the real enemy...Al Qaeda and the Taliban which are even now reconstituting their forces in Pakistan where it borders Afghanistan.

    Now, even though I've addressed your points, I'm at a complete loss as to how you arrived at them given that I merely presented the historical perspective for Bush's false analogy and BVM presented some additional context regarding post-WWII Germany. It seems that you have adopted RSR's rules of engagement...When you can't dispute the facts, follow with a non sequitur in order to try and change the subject.
     
  5. DeadCanDance
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    DeadCanDance Senior Member

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    Ya, next time I suggest we save American lives. Nuke them, we can always drill through glass.

    Amazingly, five years later, you're still conflating the attacks of 9/11, and the groups that attacked us (Al Qaeda) with Iraq.

    Iraq didn't attack us, Iraq was not a threat to the United States homeland, and Iraq was not even supporting international anti-american jihadists. The socialist Baath Party in fact considered international jihadists a threat to their own regime.
     
  6. DeadCanDance
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    DeadCanDance Senior Member

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    Germany and Japan were and are homogeneous societies, with no major sectarian, ethnic, or religious fault lines dividing the countries.

    German and Japan had profound and deep historical experience with Democratic institutions prior to WWII.

    Germany and Japan attacked us, were roundly defeated, and Formally surrendered to us -- unconditionally.


    None of these historical parallels apply to iraq.
     
  7. RetiredGySgt
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    RetiredGySgt Platinum Member

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    Ahh yes that tired old saw. You think if you say it enough it becomes true. No one ever said Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. I didn't say it, the US Government didn't say it. In fact the only people saying it are liberals trying to confuse the issue with lies and misdirection.

    Now as to Iraq being a threat, that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack. No one in the Government ever claimed it did. Bush was quite clear as to what threat Iraq was and could be. And NO he never used the word imminent, except to say he wasn't going to wait until an attack WAS imminent.
     
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  8. BaronVonBigmeat
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    BaronVonBigmeat Senior Member

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    No one? Why is it that every time someone talks of packing up and leaving Iraq, a conservative will chime in with "What? Have you forgotten 9/11 already?!?"
     
  9. Bullypulpit
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    Bullypulpit Senior Member

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    <a href=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50679-2004Jun17.html>Bush</a> and <a href=http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/18/cheney.iraq.al.qaeda/>Cheney</a> repeatedly conflated Iraq and Al Qaeda in the run up to the invasion of Iraq, and immediately afterwards. Also, in recent months and weeks, Bush has sought to link Iraq with "The same people that attacked us on September the 11th...". This in order to bolster plummeting support, particularly amongst Republicans, for the continued occupation of Iraq.

    Really, old son...You're going to have to do better than repeating the long discredited talking points of the Bush administration and their propaganda arm, FOX Noise.
     
  10. Bullypulpit
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    Bullypulpit Senior Member

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    I'm sure y'all have noticed that RetiredGySgt has completely abandoned the subject of the thread, that being Bush's failed analogies, in favor of attempted distraction and misdirection. Are you attempting to fill RSR's shoes old son?
     

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