Israel Responds By Air-120 Dead

[Procrustes Stretched]

well, you DO have a sense of humor, i may have to readdress my earlier impression of you

are you often this wrong with first impressions or like Gunny, am I a Master at Disguise (inside joke in another thread)?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Is the "you know that" tactic an off shoot of the "we tactic"?

be still little one before I feel the need to squish you like a bug.

Your opinion is never humble. IMWO

and your point is?

Way too many civilians were killed in that war to justify using the "mistakes were made" defense. I think the Israeli government did indeed get information indicating that they were targeting mostly civiians, that they knew most of the combattents had left the camps and that they had time to cancel the plans to attack. But they chose not to.

it is a complicated report and I think it did not clear Sharon and others of all errors, but...I'll check it out...again. I don't want to make a statement that may be flawed on this one.


be back soon,...

 

[DiveCon]

Is the "you know that" tactic an off shoot of the "we tactic"?

Your opinion is never humble. IMWO

Way too many civilians were killed in that war to justify using the "mistakes were made" defense. I think the Israeli government did indeed get information indicating that they were targeting mostly civiians, that they knew most of the combattents had left the camps and that they had time to cancel the plans to attack. But they chose not to.

Photos that damn Hezbollah | Herald Sun

 

[DiveCon]

are you often this wrong with first impressions or like Gunny, am I a Master at Disguise (inside joke in another thread)?

not often
but i am willing to relook at someone to see if i did

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Is the "you know that" tactic an off shoot of the "we tactic"?

Your opinion is never humble. IMWO

Way too many civilians were killed in that war to justify using the "mistakes were made" defense. I think the Israeli government did indeed get information indicating that they were targeting mostly civiians, that they knew most of the combattents had left the camps and that they had time to cancel the plans to attack. But they chose not to.

here we go...

A major outcry erupted both in Israel and internationally, because the Sabra and Shatila camps had been under the control of Israeli Defence Forces (IDF). Yet the Phalangists, who committed the killings, were spared the brunt of the condemnations. Some commentators have suggested that the Israeli military may have been involved in the incident to some extent (see below).

The Israeli government established the Kahan Commission to investigate, and it subsequently found Israel indirectly responsible for the event. The report said that Israeli commanders should have recognized the possibility of a revenge attempt, and not permitted Phalangists into the camps. Ariel Sharon was found to bear personal responsibility[2] for "ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" and for "not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed." The commission recommended that Sharon be removed as head of the Defence Ministry, and Sharon, after initial resistance, resigned.

on the moral equivalency issue people here and other places are always using: how many reports can you show me where an enemy of Israel experienced an outcry over the killing of Israeli civilians and an investigation critical of themselves was issued.

I'll wait until hell freezes over if necessary so take your time. I have a feeling time is what it will take. Lots of time.

 

[jillian]

Is the "you know that" tactic an off shoot of the "we tactic"?

Your opinion is never humble. IMWO

Way too many civilians were killed in that war to justify using the "mistakes were made" defense. I think the Israeli government did indeed get information indicating that they were targeting mostly civiians, that they knew most of the combattents had left the camps and that they had time to cancel the plans to attack. But they chose not to.

I know we want to be oh so very sophisticated and defend terrorists and pedophiles because, well...it's just so sophisticated.

But when terrorists hide behind civilians and lob missiles, I'd say the civilian deaths are on them and not on the people trying to make the missiles stop. Of course, the people lobbing the missiles could stop and make peace, but that's not what Iran is funding them to do.

Have we intentionally ignored that?

Are you oh so upset about all the missiles hitting Israel? Or are we blase about that because it's oh so not sophisiticated.... and, of course, Israel is a real country so can't be romaticized as pretend "freedom fighters" instead of the terrorists in Hamas and Hezbollah.

But let's feign outrage at second hand smoke.

And if I sound a bit testy, well, I'm not really, I just figured someone needed to remind everyone that you've spent a couple of weeks defending jew-haters and pedophiles.

 

[hotnuke]

I know this post is likely to get many responses that are typical, such as "You filthy anti-semitic piece of crud, Israel is simply defending themselves."

In the interest of those who DON'T wish to sift through tons of idiocy such as that, let me spell something out. I'm a Jew. I believe Israel has every right in the world to exist and to defend itself. I believe that the vast majority of the Israeli people are good, decent, honest, caring human beings who really would like to have peace in the region.

However, I also believe there are those, many of them in Israel's elected government, who have no such desire for peace. They are sick, evil individuals who look upon Palestinians as dogs. These are the people responsible for what is happening. Or, I should say, JUST AS RESPONSIBLE as any of the leaders of Hamas who foment and advocate terrorist acts.

These are the Israelis who have prevented the blockade on the Gaza region from being loosened over the past six months, despite the calming of actions on the part of those in Gaza for many months, thereby causing millions of people in Gaza to live in conditions that are so foul it makes one question the sanity of ANYONE who expresses outrage or shock that those living in such conditions would strike out at those causing them.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing or condoning the rocket attacks. They are murderous acts intent on murdering people. But I am trying to say they're completely understandable. If you were to pen me into a small area, not allow medical and food supplies to be brought into the area, and I had someone I love die from or suffer from such action, I wouldn't hesitate one friggin moment to attack you and anyone CONNECTED with you in any way, shape, or form. I have the distinct feeling whoever reads this, if they TRULY peruse their own soul, would find they're no different than I.

The simple fact is, both sides are guilty of incredible wrongs. And anyone trying to justify today's MURDEROUS IAF STRIKE, is simply a fool whose hatred and evil heart has blinded him or her from reality. Peace will ONLY be reached when both sides agree to it, but Israel, as a democratic nation, harbors the greater responsibility in making strides toward that peace. Anyone who doesn't see this is again, a fool.

I can only hope that someday its citizens elect a government controlled by people who really understand this.

 

[WillowTree]

Yawn! Oh hum!

 

[hotnuke]

Yawn! Oh hum!

I take it you're one of those who consider Palestinians nothing better than dogs. It can be the only reasonable explanation for your obvious antipathy to the killing of hundreds of them and the serious wounding of hundreds more. I wonder, were you so callous about the lives lost on 9-11?

 

[DavidS]

I know this post is likely to get many responses that are typical, such as "You filthy anti-semitic piece of crud, Israel is simply defending themselves."

In the interest of those who DON'T wish to sift through tons of idiocy such as that, let me spell something out. I'm a Jew. I believe Israel has every right in the world to exist and to defend itself. I believe that the vast majority of the Israeli people are good, decent, honest, caring human beings who really would like to have peace in the region.

However, I also believe there are those, many of them in Israel's elected government, who have no such desire for peace. They are sick, evil individuals who look upon Palestinians as dogs. These are the people responsible for what is happening. Or, I should say, JUST AS RESPONSIBLE as any of the leaders of Hamas who foment and advocate terrorist acts.

These are the Israelis who have prevented the blockade on the Gaza region from being loosened over the past six months, despite the calming of actions on the part of those in Gaza for many months, thereby causing millions of people in Gaza to live in conditions that are so foul it makes one question the sanity of ANYONE who expresses outrage or shock that those living in such conditions would strike out at those causing them.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not excusing or condoning the rocket attacks. They are murderous acts intent on murdering people. But I am trying to say they're completely understandable. If you were to pen me into a small area, not allow medical and food supplies to be brought into the area, and I had someone I love die from or suffer from such action, I wouldn't hesitate one friggin moment to attack you and anyone CONNECTED with you in any way, shape, or form. I have the distinct feeling whoever reads this, if they TRULY peruse their own soul, would find they're no different than I.

The simple fact is, both sides are guilty of incredible wrongs. And anyone trying to justify today's MURDEROUS IAF STRIKE, is simply a fool whose hatred and evil heart has blinded him or her from reality. Peace will ONLY be reached when both sides agree to it, but Israel, as a democratic nation, harbors the greater responsibility in making strides toward that peace. Anyone who doesn't see this is again, a fool.

I can only hope that someday its citizens elect a government controlled by people who really understand this.

We have not penned the Arabs into a small area. Until they elected Hamas, the Gaza/Egypt border was always open.

Israel has, for years, tried to sit down and talk to Hamas. We even made a "truce" with them, but during that truce, hundreds of rockets were fired at Israel.

So, we've tried diplomacy. We've tried a cease-fire/truce. We've tried EVERYTHING that wouldn't involve our military, and some that did including pin prick air strikes. I don't know what more you would like Israel to do. No country in the world would tolerate another firing rockets into its territory for years. And yet, Israel has had to. And here you sit saying Israel should continue to tolerate it. How many Israelis must die to make it justified?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

We have not penned the Arabs into a small area. Until they elected Hamas, the Gaza/Egypt border was always open.

Israel has, for years, tried to sit down and talk to Hamas. We even made a "truce" with them, but during that truce, hundreds of rockets were fired at Israel.

So, we've tried diplomacy. We've tried a cease-fire/truce. We've tried EVERYTHING that wouldn't involve our military, and some that did including pin prick air strikes. I don't know what more you would like Israel to do. No country in the world would tolerate another firing rockets into its territory for years. And yet, Israel has had to. And here you sit saying Israel should continue to tolerate it. How many Israelis must die to make it justified?

thank you

 

[Anguille]

percociousQUOTE]

Percocious definately describes you. A WOTD gem.
Percolating with expialicociousness.

 

[Anguille]

And if I sound a bit testy, well, I'm not really, I just figured someone needed to remind everyone that you've spent a couple of weeks defending jew-haters and pedophiles.

Of course you would figure that that would be your best bet for slandering me so as to snuff out any real discussion.

If I sound testy, I am!!!

I don't think it's worth my trouble to amswer to your little cross examination concerning the other questions you raise. I'm not on trial here and I don't need to provide my credentials to you.

Funny that a lawyer would discredit the right of anyone to argue an opposing point or defend anyone. However I do not defend jew haters or pedophiles. Case dismissed. Frivolous lawsuit designed to intimidate.

 

[Anguille]

how many reports can you show me where an enemy of Israel experienced an outcry over the killing of Israeli civilians and an investigation critical of themselves was issued.

Provide your own. I'm not your para legal. Nor am I an enemy of Israel.

 

[Modbert]

I've supported India's right to respond to the attacks, I supported the Afghanistan war when the US responded to 9/11, uhhmmm... let's see... give me an example of another conflict where a country is attacked by an opposing government.

And I must say, I need you to provide me with some examples of when countries have just sat there and taken it. Besides France in World War 2, can you name any other country?

I believe she means with the same amount of effort you put into defending Israel.

However, no country/group is perfect.

Not Hamas, not Israel, and not the U.S.

 

[Modbert]

This is so sad. First the story then conversation about who is more justified in killing.

Exactly.

It's the way I felt in the other thread and this one.

I wouldn't even bother Amanda, dare try to say one side killing is another is wrong and they flip the fuck out on you.

I dare accused the OP of another thread earlier in practical Genocide when he proposed 1,000 Palestinians for every Israeli killed.

Course, just about everyone took it out of context and said "What the fuck you idiot, why you saying Genocide over 200 people."

With these type of threads, you cannot have a open minded argument/discussion because there is too much emotion and not enough logic involved.

 

[Anguille]

We have not penned the Arabs into a small area. Until they elected Hamas, the Gaza/Egypt border was always open.

Israel has, for years, tried to sit down and talk to Hamas. We even made a "truce" with them, but during that truce, hundreds of rockets were fired at Israel.

So, we've tried diplomacy. We've tried a cease-fire/truce. We've tried EVERYTHING that wouldn't involve our military, and some that did including pin prick air strikes. I don't know what more you would like Israel to do. No country in the world would tolerate another firing rockets into its territory for years. And yet, Israel has had to. And here you sit saying Israel should continue to tolerate it. How many Israelis must die to make it justified?

Part of the problem is that Hamas does not even represent the totality of Palestinians. Agreements made with Hamas are not guaranteed to be honored by the other groups. The situation contines to deteriorate. Both Israel and the Palestinians are blamed for and distract from the larger problems that exist in the Middle East. The counties which surround them need this confict for their own reasons and will continue to feed it.

 

[Modbert]

There is no justification for intentionally killing innocent civilians.

Well many on your own side and you David to a extent have found justification for the killing of innocent civilians.

Perhaps I've misjudged you, but I have a feeling if Israel nuked the Palestinians to hell tomorrow that you'd find some way to justify them.

There's nothing wrong with feeling strongly about something. However, when you feel so strongly that no other view or opinion no matter how right could change your opinion is when you've become blind to the situation. (Not saying any opinion is right or wrong except the ones trying to say Israel/Palestinians/whatever are justified in killing innocents.)

 

[Anguille]

European countries allowing ghettos of angry, young immigrants, (ssshhh, Muslim), to riot and destroy property at will.

The first ghetto was in Venice. It was and still is the Jewish neighborhood. For over 300 the Jews of Rome were locked nightly into their ghetto and most Jewish Roman women spent their entire lives within the walls of the ghetto. And Italy was actually the most tolerant European country concerning the Jews.

The problems that result from disenfranchising and isolating cultural groups have gotten worse in those European cities where these suburban areas continue to become cut off from the larger population. Lack of anti-descrimnatory employment laws in many European countries makes the problem worse.

Marseilles, a city with one of the largest Muslim populations in France has less crime related to religious or ethnic issues because all though the suburban slums do exist there as they do outside Paris, in Marseille, the city itself is better integrated and the inner city neighborhoods are more culturally diverse.

Rioting and destruction of property is not new to Europe nor was it brought to Europe by immigrants. For example, the riots of May 68 in France.

 

[DavidS]

Well many on your own side and you David to a extent have found justification for the killing of innocent civilians.

You could not be more wrong. Israel does not intentionally target arab civilians. Every single person killed today, every single target hit, was a direct result of a bomb being dropped on military or government infrastructure. We have been deliberately targetting Hamas - NOT innocent civilians. BUT - Hamas has been placing civilians in government buildings and has been placing them in places where they launch rockets from. So if Israel is to wipe out Hamas, yes, some civilians must die because Hamas forces them to be there. If Hamas did not force them to be there, almost no civilians would die.

The difference is Hamas does not target Israeli government structures. They have targeted busses, hotels, bus stops, cafes, restaraunts, clubs, places where CIVILIANS are.

Get it through your thick head, Robert. Hamas is the one responsible for any Arab death that Israel causes. I'm glad you're a teenager who's trying to understand the world better and who cares about the world, it's great to see and I encourage you to keep posting here. But, being a teenager, you have to admit that there are things in this world that work differently than you may have observed in your short time on this planet. Don't be arrogant - understand that you don't know everything. That's the first step to knowledge.