Israel - Apartheid, yes or no.

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

A good and reasonable question.

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

(COMMENT)

First, the State of Israel is neither a signatory to the Rome Statutes OR the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. (See UNTC) (NOTE: Neither is the State of Palestine.)

The definition of the crime is essentially the same in both the Rome Statutes (Article 7) OR the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment (Article II); with the exception that nearly all the violations in the Convention are along the lines of "racial group of persons." Whereas, the Rome Statute is focused on "with the intention of maintaining that regime."

Secondly, the instrument that "defines the crime" does not limit the application of the definition. What defines "apartheid" does not restrict it application to either Israel or Palestine. It merely establishes a common understanding.

In the case of Israel, its constituency of citizens is multi-racial. There is no discrimination based on race with the "intention of maintaining that regime." In fact, we do not understand what "regime" is being accused or what "races" are involved. Israel is a multi-party, democratically elected, Parliament (Knesset) government with various cultures as members of the Parliament (including Arabs).

I
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

(COMMENT)

There is no specific allegation here with the description of any policy, program, or action that Israel has committed that is associated with a specific prohibition. You keep saying it is "apartheid" but you never actually identify:

• What action is "apartheid" ---
• What prohibition it violated ---

What crime was committed, when and how --- and what clause of the "apartheid" law are you claim it violates?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

I have identified it enough times, give it a rest Rocco.

 

[Penelope]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

Ahh fresh new conspiracy! Please explain what war crimes Israel found guilt of and by whom - next tell me if it has anything to do with apartheid, that would be an acceptable post, otherwise - don't bother.

What conspiracy, a Jew came up with it, and you had no problem using it against Germany even thought it was a World War and Judea declared war on Germany First, but here are two examples from above:
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law

You have a double standard, your gov can call anyone it wants a terrorist and that gives them a right to preemptive strike. That preemptive strike is known as terrorism.

 

[Daniyel]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

Ahh fresh new conspiracy! Please explain what war crimes Israel found guilt of and by whom - next tell me if it has anything to do with apartheid, that would be an acceptable post, otherwise - don't bother.

What conspiracy, a Jew came up with it, and you had no problem using it against Germany even thought it was a World War and Judea declared war on Germany First, but here are two examples from above:
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law

You have a double standard, your gov can call anyone it wants a terrorist and that gives them a right to preemptive strike. That preemptive strike is known as terrorism.

We are talking about allegedly apartheid in Israel - which is allegedly directed to Israelis, you have terrible reading comprehension.

 

[Phoenall]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

Have they decided to become part of Israel then, or are they still ruled by their own government ?

 

[Phoenall]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

It doesn't mean Israel is an apartheid state, it is called a military occupation.

Call it what you want , a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Hello everyone,

Since we usually have this sort of inside debates in threads I decided to take a big subject and invite everyone to contribute their opinion, I mostly interested to hear what RoccoR and montelatici have to say about it but everyone is welcome, open debate for everyone.

Please to everyone participating in the poll - make a post with your opinion.

Now basically Israel is being constantly accused by the pro Palestinian lobby claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, I would like to hear why and please for the sake of order - make a reference to the fact(in facts we trust) - to base the claim because I always hear this claim over and over again but never heard WHY.

Thanks in advance.

Israel is so apartheid it is the only country in the entire Middle East to have citizens of virtually all living faiths including Muslim Palestinians witrh equal voting rights in the Israeli knesset.

As long as they keep their mouths shut! Just like some members in our congress, appease the elders and top dogs.

So were are the muslim only buses, muslim only restaurants, muslim only drinking fountains inside Israel proper. What happens outside of its borders are not counted.
How would you view an American politician demanding the cold blooded mass murder of all white American people starting with the children and women. Would you want them to be censured and even deported for their TREASONOUS outbursts ?

 

[Phoenall]

Have you read your papers today?

WHY ?

 

[Phoenall]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

Ahh fresh new conspiracy! Please explain what war crimes Israel found guilt of and by whom - next tell me if it has anything to do with apartheid, that would be an acceptable post, otherwise - don't bother.

What conspiracy, a Jew came up with it, and you had no problem using it against Germany even thought it was a World War and Judea declared war on Germany First, but here are two examples from above:
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law

You have a double standard, your gov can call anyone it wants a terrorist and that gives them a right to preemptive strike. That preemptive strike is known as terrorism.

And seeing as Israel has acted in line with CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW in all of its actions in the W.B. and gaza your screech of outrage is null and void. The actual section of the International Law has been cited on this board many times that shows that Israel can arrest and imprison Palestinians for crimes that were on the statute for the nation the occupied land is part off.
Actually the UN charter gives them the right to defend themselves against terrorism and it lays down the criteria, just as it also lays down the criteria that hamas breaches every time it fires a weapon at Israel

 

[Challenger]

Thanks to RoccoR for the links to the Statutes and Convention however RoccoR omits or overlooks clause c in Article II which states:

"Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association"

Zionist Israel has a system of legalized discrimination WITHIN Israel proper, just looking at two areas as examples,
Land Laws: for example, "Israeli Arabs" are severely limited in the ability to own land and this limits them to living in either the cities or on less than 5% of the rural portion of the Zionist state. Some Israeli Laws that legalize ethnic/racial discrimination include: Emergency Land Requisition (Regulation) Law (1949), Development Authority (Transfer Of Property) Law (1950), Absentees’ Property Law (1950)
State Property Law (1951), Land Acquisition (Validation Of Acts And Compensation) Law (1953)
Keren Kayemet Le-Israel Law (1953), Prevention Of Infiltration (Offenses And Jurisdiction) Law (1954)
Basic Law: Israel Lands (1960), Israel Lands Administration Law (1960), Planning And Building Law (1965), Agricultural Settlement (Restrictions On Use Of Agricultural Land And Water) Law (1967)
Immigration & Citizenship Laws: I can cite the Law of Return for Jewish people, which gives them virtually automatic citizenship on application, but I'm sure everyone knows about that in this forum. More importantly, however, all inhabitants of Zionist Israel are required to carry "identification certificates" on which their "nationality" and religion are listed. This information has then been used to practice discrimination against certificate holders if their religion is listed as "Muslim", or their nationality is listed as "Arab". sample discriminatory Laws that apply here include: Registration Of Inhabitants Law (1949), Law Of Return (1950), Absentees’ Property Law (1950), Nationality Law (1952), Entry Into Israel (1952), Prevention Of Infiltration (Offences And Jurisdiction) Law, (1954), Population Registry Law (1965), Identity Certificate (Possession And Presentation) Law (1982), Nationality And Entry Into Israel (Temporary Order) Law (2003) and Nationality And Entry Into Israel (Temporary Order) (Amendment) Law (2005)

I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea. As far as I'm aware all the above laws are all still in force and there are also other areas where discrimination on racial and/or ethnic grounds exists within a legalized framework; for example there are: Rules and Regulations regarding the allocation of State Benefits; Rules,Regulations and Laws involving Participation in Government; Institutionalised and routine violations of many Civil Rights; Routine harassment that can be construed as racist in nature.

There is no doubt in my mind, that Zionist Israel is guilty of the Crime of Apartheid as defined in both the Statutes and the Convention,

Respectfully,

Challenger.

 

[Penelope]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

Ahh fresh new conspiracy! Please explain what war crimes Israel found guilt of and by whom - next tell me if it has anything to do with apartheid, that would be an acceptable post, otherwise - don't bother.

What conspiracy, a Jew came up with it, and you had no problem using it against Germany even thought it was a World War and Judea declared war on Germany First, but here are two examples from above:
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law

You have a double standard, your gov can call anyone it wants a terrorist and that gives them a right to preemptive strike. That preemptive strike is known as terrorism.

We are talking about allegedly apartheid in Israel - which is allegedly directed to Israelis, you have terrible reading comprehension.

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

Ahh fresh new conspiracy! Please explain what war crimes Israel found guilt of and by whom - next tell me if it has anything to do with apartheid, that would be an acceptable post, otherwise - don't bother.

What conspiracy, a Jew came up with it, and you had no problem using it against Germany even thought it was a World War and Judea declared war on Germany First, but here are two examples from above:
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law

You have a double standard, your gov can call anyone it wants a terrorist and that gives them a right to preemptive strike. That preemptive strike is known as terrorism.

We are talking about allegedly apartheid in Israel - which is allegedly directed to Israelis, you have terrible reading comprehension.

Yes I know. Like I said you have a double standard, and Israel gov is above any law except theirs.

 

[RoccoR]

Challenger, et al,

Well, first --- thanks are appreciated.

Thanks to RoccoR for the links to the Statutes and Convention however RoccoR omits or overlooks clause c in Article II which states:

"Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association"


I could go on, but I'm sure you get the idea. As far as I'm aware all the above laws are all still in force and there are also other areas where discrimination on racial and/or ethnic grounds exists within a legalized framework; for example there are: Rules and Regulations regarding the allocation of State Benefits; Rules,Regulations and Laws involving Participation in Government; Institutionalised and routine violations of many Civil Rights; Routine harassment that can be construed as racist in nature.

There is no doubt in my mind, that Zionist Israel is guilty of the Crime of Apartheid as defined in both the Statutes and the Convention,

(COMMENT)

Relative to Clause "C" in Article II: The Jewish Community is made up of a number of different races; while predominantly Caucasian and Black --- there are others. Within Israel, there is no discriminatory laws that lend advantage or penalize Jewish citizens of varying races.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

-Within Israel, there is no discriminatory laws that lend advantage or penalize Jewish citizens of varying races.

We are talking about non-Jews Rocco, get with the program.

Of course the granting of citizenship or immigration rights based on being Jewish lends advantage to those who are Jewish.

Having laws that prevent non-Jews from buying/leasing land reserved to only Jews is also discriminatory.

Quit tap dancing Rocco, you are making a fool of yourself.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

A non-Jew is not a separate race. The "apartheid laws" are about the discriminatory law pertaining to separate racial groups.

-Within Israel, there is no discriminatory laws that lend advantage or penalize Jewish citizens of varying races.

We are talking about non-Jews Rocco, get with the program.

Of course the granting of citizenship or immigration rights based on being Jewish lends advantage to those who are Jewish.

Having laws that prevent non-Jews from buying/leasing land reserved to only Jews is also discriminatory.

Quit tap dancing Rocco, you are making a fool of yourself.

(COMMENT)

There are no laws in Israel that lend advantage or penalize the difference between a Caucasian Jew and a Black Jew. If there were, then that would be the defining characteristic that could lead to "apartheid." But, in fact, I find no distinction between the laws in Israel that distinguish the difference between races.

The laws that pertain the Jewish are the same for each race --- Black or Caucasian. The laws that pertain to non-Jews are the same, Black or Caucasian. The "Apartheid Laws" are in place to prevent the discrimination against "a racial group or groups from participation" in otherwise lawful activities enjoyed by all citizens. (Non-Jew is not a race.)

Read the law.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[docmauser1]

Of course the granting of citizenship or immigration rights based on being Jewish lends advantage to those who are Jewish. Having laws that prevent non-Jews from buying/leasing land reserved to only Jews is also discriminatory.

There's always democratic multicultural Ramallah nearby to move over to, of course.

 

[Penelope]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

Have they decided to become part of Israel then, or are they still ruled by their own government ?

Give me a break, constantly we read about punitive punishment the Israeli government is going to dish out to the Pals. Either lets see demolish some homes, don't let them ride the bus, put restrictions on the temple mount, stopping supplies from going into gaza, shooting at the fishermen if they go out to far,

apparently Israel owns the M. Sea as well.

 

[docmauser1]

Palistanians must've committed mucho transgressions, indeed.[/font]

 

[montelatici]

montelatici, et al,

A non-Jew is not a separate race. The "apartheid laws" are about the discriminatory law pertaining to separate racial groups.

-Within Israel, there is no discriminatory laws that lend advantage or penalize Jewish citizens of varying races.

We are talking about non-Jews Rocco, get with the program.

Of course the granting of citizenship or immigration rights based on being Jewish lends advantage to those who are Jewish.

Having laws that prevent non-Jews from buying/leasing land reserved to only Jews is also discriminatory.

Quit tap dancing Rocco, you are making a fool of yourself.

(COMMENT)

There are no laws in Israel that lend advantage or penalize the difference between a Caucasian Jew and a Black Jew. If there were, then that would be the defining characteristic that could lead to "apartheid." But, in fact, I find no distinction between the laws in Israel that distinguish the difference between races.

The laws that pertain the Jewish are the same for each race --- Black or Caucasian. The laws that pertain to non-Jews are the same, Black or Caucasian. The "Apartheid Laws" are in place to prevent the discrimination against "a racial group or groups from participation" in otherwise lawful activities enjoyed by all citizens. (Non-Jew is not a race.)

Read the law.

Most Respectfully,
R

You should do your homework before posting nonsense. You continue demonstrating your ignorance of the subject matter Rocco. As they say ""Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

The operative definition of "racial identity" is provided in the 1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (which Israel signed), on which the apartheid convention explicitly draws.

"racial discrimination" is defined as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

 

[docmauser1]

As they say ""Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

But palistanian muslims speak out and are fools too! Every time Abu Mazen opens his mouth is like a garbage truck dumping a load in a land-fill.

 

[montelatici]

Very mature comment.

 

[docmauser1]

Very mature comment.

Indeed, it is.