Is it "bigotry" to think a religion is stupid, silly or evil?

[whitehall]

What goes around comes around. If you consider that calling someone a bigot is an example of bigotry itself you get a dog chasing it's own tail. The word "discriminating" used to be a popular ad-agency term. If you liked a product they sold you were discriminating and if you didn't like it you might have been a redneck or some other victim of bigotry. The point is that pursuing bigots is a waste of time and you might be chasing your own tail. Better to consider which religions or anti-religions promote murder or anarchy.

 

[Sunshine]

When I point out the truly stupid beliefs of the dumber Abrahamic religions, I get the typical jerks who can't really defend the point screaming "bigot" because I don't respect their silly beliefs.

The two biggest offenders being Mormons and Catholics.

I find the latter kind of Hilarious because I was raised Catholic, most of my relatives are practicing Catholics, and members of my family have worked in Church related enterprises for three generations.

But to the point, is pointing out the silliness of a belief offensive.

If you told me that you believed in Martians or Bigfoot or Santa Claus, and I responded with science and reason why these are silly beliefs, you probably wouldn't try to call me a bigot for not respecting your beliefs. You might even be inclined to say, "Yeah, when you put it that way, those things are kind of silly."

But if you believe a man in a dress is talking to God, or that that God told Joseph Smith to go out and have sex with dozens of women, and I point out that is really stupid or silly.

BIGOT!!!!

When I point out that there are things in the history of these religions that indicate that there really isn't anything holy about them...

BIGOT!!!

To make it quite simple. Silly things do not become less silly if you dress them up in vestments and call them a religion..

Sorry, still silly no matter how you dress it up.

Pointing out a 'silly belief' is quite different from labeling the person who believes it as being stupid. Intelligent people have held incorrect beliefs from the dawn of man. And you really can't prove anything about the correctness or incorrectness of a person's religious beliefs. Until you can, you should consider yourself a bigot any time you label a person stupid based upon what you, yourself, merely believe but cannot prove.

 

[edthecynic]

thinking is BAD to some

Anyone who has begun to think, places some portion of the world in jeopardy.
- John Dewey

 

[Oddball]

"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."
— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

So we can safely score you as insane.

Good to know.

 

[edthecynic]

Let me give you one agnostics view of "silly" religions, Joe...

If believing in something brings comfort to others? I don't have a problem with that. If it causes others to want to kill me because I don't believe in what they do then I do have a problem. I would have had a problem with Catholicism during the Spanish Inquisition...I have no problem with them now. I have no idea at all why you're so anti-Mormon.

The old line is "If a cripple needs a crutch do you kick it out from underneath them?".

I am fine with peopel believing what they want.

I am not fine with them thinking I must be forced to never point out their belief is based on no evidence.

I should not be forced into silence so you dont have to hear the facts.

"Many of us saw religion as harmless nonsense. Beliefs might lack all supporting evidence but, we thought, if people needed a crutch for consolation, where's the harm? September 11th changed all that."
— Richard Dawkins

 

[JoeB131]

Joseph SMith made up stories to con less smart people out of their money and screw teenage girls. That's just a bit more malicious, don't you think? And, yes, I want to know if Romney really thinks that's true.

The point that you are clearly missing is that Mormonism has whacky ideas and so does Christianity and so does every other religion. People selectively choose what they want to believe in religion, so holding some religious people to one standard and other religious people to others - "All Mormons believe all the whacky Mormon stuff while all Christians do not" - is a blatant and nonsensical double standard.

Bigotry is not disagreeing with someone. Bigotry is assuming that all members of a group act a specific way and being intolerant of all the individuals in the group because of your own preconceived views. Making lists of people whom you know are duplicitous and not doing business with them is not bigotry. Making lists of people whom you assume are duplicitous because they are Mormons and not doing business with them is bigotry.

Wow, deftly avoided my point again. AMAZING!

It isn't JUST that the ideas are 'whacky', but that they are LIES.

Joseph Smith is a LIAR.

Mormons are perpetrating LIES.

What part of LIES don't you get?

It's a lie. I have no use for people who believe in them, I have no use for people who help perpetrate them.

 

[JoeB131]

Yep. And there is a real irony here to how they want to paint the perception of Mitt Romney as some sort of mindless robot with waffling beliefs like a candle in the wind...

Joe even proudly cites how Obama was willing to throw his Mentor, the man who performed his Wedding "under the bus"...........

Decades ago political spin meisters whispered in Mitt Romney's ear how he'd never win as a Mormon, how he never had a chance as a Mormon candidate, how he should switch over to some other Christian denomination so as to be more palatable to the American voter...

Mitt Romney stood by his family legacy, and the Religion of his father and his grandfather who inspired him to be a good man dedicated to Family, Faith and Country...

]

His Grandfather ran off to Mexico and renounced his citizenship because the government said he could only have one wife. That's hardly something to be proud of. I'd find that kind of embarrassing.

Actually, I'm happy that Obama used Wright and threw him away when he was no longer useful. It's what the Republicans have been doing to the religious right for decades, they're just too dumb to notice...

 

[BluePhantom]

Well Joe, having read the thread I guess i would say the following:

A) Disagreeing with religion or pointing out things within a religion that you disagree with is not bigoted. Demonstrating contempt or animosity against a person or group of people because of that point of disagreement is bigoted. Judging from what I have seen you write on this thread, I would have to conclude that you are exhibiting strong characteristics of bigotry in regard to Mormons and Catholics especially.

B) Let's be fair here. While many (not all) atheists and agnostics often display bigotry, many (not all) people who are religious are often just as bad.

C) I wonder if you are bringing this up to justify your opposition to Romney or if your opposition to Romney is based upon your position as anti-Mormon. Which came first and is the motivating factor?

For the record, I too vehemently disagree with the Mormon faith and believe Joseph Smith was a liar, hypocrite, thief, and con-artist. However, that does not mean that I believe Mormons are those things. Indeed, the overwhelming majority of them aren't. But who am I, and who are you to determine what is acceptable for one to believe and what is not?

 

[Wry Catcher]

It's not bigotry to disagree with a religion. It's bigotry to paint everyone with the same brush and to assume that everyone is defined the same way based on one aspect.

Such as posts which include," liberals believe, all liberals, libtards" or anyone who believes in government regulations or uses the term "obamacare" is a, "commie, Marxist, socialist"? Yep, those who post such drivel are bigots all right.

 

[BluePhantom]

It's not bigotry to disagree with a religion. It's bigotry to paint everyone with the same brush and to assume that everyone is defined the same way based on one aspect.

Such as posts which include," liberals believe, all liberals, libtards" or anyone who believes in government regulations or uses the term "obamacare" is a, "commie, Marxist, socialist"? Yep, those who post such drivel are bigots all right.

The same kind of shit is posted by many liberals against the Republicans on USMB. Let's not get holier than thou.

 

[Oddball]

It's not bigotry to disagree with a religion. It's bigotry to paint everyone with the same brush and to assume that everyone is defined the same way based on one aspect.

Such as posts which include," liberals believe, all liberals, libtards" or anyone who believes in government regulations or uses the term "obamacare" is a, "commie, Marxist, socialist"? Yep, those who post such drivel are bigots all right.

Lest we forget the bigoted retards who constantly use worn out drivel clichés like "callous conservatives" and "right-wing echo chamber".

 

[BluePhantom]

In fairness though Joe, most people have something for which they tend toward bigotry. I for example tend to protect my wallet and children when I learn someone around me is a Raiders fan.

 

[JoeB131]

Well Joe, having read the thread I guess i would say the following:

A) Disagreeing with religion or pointing out things within a religion that you disagree with is not bigoted. Demonstrating contempt or animosity against a person or group of people because of that point of disagreement is bigoted. Judging from what I have seen you write on this thread, I would have to conclude that you are exhibiting strong characteristics of bigotry in regard to Mormons and Catholics especially.

B) Let's be fair here. While many (not all) atheists and agnostics often display bigotry, many (not all) people who are religious are often just as bad.

C) I wonder if you are bringing this up to justify your opposition to Romney or if your opposition to Romney is based upon your position as anti-Mormon. Which came first and is the motivating factor?

For the record, I too vehemently disagree with the Mormon faith and believe Joseph Smith was a liar, hypocrite, thief, and con-artist. However, that does not mean that I believe Mormons are those things. Indeed, the overwhelming majority of them aren't. But who am I, and who are you to determine what is acceptable for one to believe and what is not?

I have more contempt for Mormons and Catholics because that's what I've had more personal (negative) experiences with. But I do think there is a corrolation between ridiculous beliefs and bad behavior, absolutely.

I will give you an example. Before I got over the fence, I got a lot of Catholic teaching about how Greed was a sin. I don't believe in sin as a concept anymore, but the principle I think is sound. Obviously, that is not a Mormon value, given that Mitt Romney not only has no problem with greed, doesn't even realize how tone deaf he sounds on the issue whenhe says stuff like the things in my tag-line. And if you read about how Joseph Smith essentially was trying to con people out of money from when he got run out of New York for fraud until they shot his sorry ass in Navou, IL, Greed must not be a serious sin to them.

I could be wrong, but my personal dealings would say, I'm not.

I would say that Romney's religion is amongst the reasons I don't like him. (Again, I don't want this to be another Romney thread). SO are his other lack of character issues. But if he was brought up in a tradition with character, would he be like that?

If I were to hit the lottery, my first thought would not be "Now, I need to find some troubled company, loot the shit out of it, fire all the employees, and leave the chumps with sacks of debt." I have just enough residual Catholicism left to know that's wrong.

I see the issues as intertwinned. Mormons refer to the rest of us as "Gentiles" and call other churches besides their own "the Church of Satan" and "an abomination".

And sorry, I really do wish someone would ask Romney if he really believes that.

 

[JoeB131]

In fairness though Joe, most people have something for which they tend toward bigotry. I for example tend to protect my wallet and children when I learn someone around me is a Raiders fan.

Well, Raiders fans, that's totally understandable...

I usually assume that Cubs fans are kind of gulliable...

 

[BluePhantom]

I have more contempt for Mormons and Catholics because that's what I've had more personal (negative) experiences with. But I do think there is a corrolation between ridiculous beliefs and bad behavior, absolutely.

Well I think the first sentence is perfectly understandable. When I was a kid we had constant trouble with the Indian tribe who lived close by. Constant brawls, all sorts of violent and destructive activity on both sides. So certainly when I learned that someone was a member of that particular tribe I immediately had a bad taste in my mouth. It took a very long time and some serious effort to open my mind, get over that, and realize that it was unfair of me to make assumptions about a person's character because of experiences from my youth that were not in any way related to that particular person.

Shit like that happens to almost everyone and I think it's hard to bust someone's balls too heavily about that. But..according to the definition of the word it's still discriminatory whether it's understandable or not.

Obviously, that is not a Mormon value, given that Mitt Romney not only has no problem with greed, doesn't even realize how tone deaf he sounds on the issue whenhe says stuff like the things in my tag-line.

Well come on Joe....those quotes are taken out of context and you know it very well. You're no dummy. You know perfectly well that what those quotes appear to say is not at all what he was getting at.

And if you read about how Joseph Smith essentially was trying to con people out of money from when he got run out of New York for fraud until they shot his sorry ass in Navou, IL, Greed must not be a serious sin to them.

As I said.....my opinion of Joseph Smith is not exactly glowing. But I find that I cannot look at a person who follows the Mormon faith and say "because you believe a man who I consider to be a liar, thief, and con-artist then you must be one too." Now I can look at them and say "wow. I can't believe you got suckered in by this asshole" and I can even make some personal judgments about their degree of gullibility. But, speaking only for myself here, I can't reach the conclusion that a person is trash based upon what I believe is an irrational religious belief (assuming that belief does not involve murder or criminal acts, i.e. al-qaeda).

I would say that Romney's religion is amongst the reasons I don't like him.

ok well then that's bigotry.

SO are his other lack of character issues.

Perhaps but that doesn't change the fact that his religion IS one of the reasons.

If I were to hit the lottery, my first thought would not be "Now, I need to find some troubled company, loot the shit out of it, fire all the employees, and leave the chumps with sacks of debt." I have just enough residual Catholicism left to know that's wrong.

Come on. That's a pretty biased view of what Bain Capital did.

I see the issues as intertwinned. Mormons refer to the rest of us as "Gentiles" and call other churches besides their own "the Church of Satan" and "an abomination".

Well so does nearly every other church.

 

[syrenn]

When I point out the truly stupid beliefs of the dumber Abrahamic religions, I get the typical jerks who can't really defend the point screaming "bigot" because I don't respect their silly beliefs.

The two biggest offenders being Mormons and Catholics.

I find the latter kind of Hilarious because I was raised Catholic, most of my relatives are practicing Catholics, and members of my family have worked in Church related enterprises for three generations.

But to the point, is pointing out the silliness of a belief offensive.

If you told me that you believed in Martians or Bigfoot or Santa Claus, and I responded with science and reason why these are silly beliefs, you probably wouldn't try to call me a bigot for not respecting your beliefs. You might even be inclined to say, "Yeah, when you put it that way, those things are kind of silly."

But if you believe a man in a dress is talking to God, or that that God told Joseph Smith to go out and have sex with dozens of women, and I point out that is really stupid or silly.

BIGOT!!!!

When I point out that there are things in the history of these religions that indicate that there really isn't anything holy about them...

BIGOT!!!

To make it quite simple. Silly things do not become less silly if you dress them up in vestments and call them a religion..

Sorry, still silly no matter how you dress it up.

I mock them all equally.

 

[syrenn]

thinking is BAD to some

Try it some time... thinking that is. Who knows, it may even turn out to be good for you.

 

[JoeB131]

Obviously, that is not a Mormon value, given that Mitt Romney not only has no problem with greed, doesn't even realize how tone deaf he sounds on the issue whenhe says stuff like the things in my tag-line.

Well come on Joe....those quotes are taken out of context and you know it very well. You're no dummy. You know perfectly well that what those quotes appear to say is not at all what he was getting at.

I don't think it was "taken out of context". I think this is the robot slipping off his programming and showing us who he really is. "I like to be able to fire people" shows a mentality. I have money. I can push people around. IN the real world, we can't fire our insurance carriers, mostly because we get it through our employers, and that isn't going to change. And if we get sick, it isn't like they are going to be lining up around the block to pick us up after we've "fired" our current carrier.

The comment about illegals wasn't out of context. It was him showing who he was. If he wasn't running for office, he wouldn't have cared. The same with the line about "I don't care about the very poor". It shows who he is.

As I said.....my opinion of Joseph Smith is not exactly glowing. But I find that I cannot look at a person who follows the Mormon faith and say "because you believe a man who I consider to be a liar, thief, and con-artist then you must be one too." Now I can look at them and say "wow. I can't believe you got suckered in by this asshole" and I can even make some personal judgments about their degree of gullibility. But, speaking only for myself here, I can't reach the conclusion that a person is trash based upon what I believe is an irrational religious belief (assuming that belief does not involve murder or criminal acts, i.e. al-qaeda).

Do I assume they are liars and con-artists? NOpe. Do I think they are coming from a skewed value system? Yup. I mean, just for shits and giggles, visit the five thousand post Mormon thread, if you want to see some of the handstands they go through to rationalize the silliness.

If I were to hit the lottery, my first thought would not be "Now, I need to find some troubled company, loot the shit out of it, fire all the employees, and leave the chumps with sacks of debt." I have just enough residual Catholicism left to know that's wrong.

Come on. That's a pretty biased view of what Bain Capital did. [

I'd call it a pretty accurate one. More to the point, it shows more of the dishonesty. Romney's whole pitch is that he's a "job creator". But he actually destroyed jobs if there was money to be made in doing so. This "oops, you got in my way" mentality I think is wrecking this country and it's not what I want to see in a president. Sometimes you have to make harsh decisions that effect or in some cases cost people their lives. I wouldn't want someone who is callous about it.

 

[Sheldon]

When I point out the truly stupid beliefs of the dumber Abrahamic religions, I get the typical jerks who can't really defend the point screaming "bigot" because I don't respect their silly beliefs.

The two biggest offenders being Mormons and Catholics.

I find the latter kind of Hilarious because I was raised Catholic, most of my relatives are practicing Catholics, and members of my family have worked in Church related enterprises for three generations.

But to the point, is pointing out the silliness of a belief offensive.

If you told me that you believed in Martians or Bigfoot or Santa Claus, and I responded with science and reason why these are silly beliefs, you probably wouldn't try to call me a bigot for not respecting your beliefs. You might even be inclined to say, "Yeah, when you put it that way, those things are kind of silly."

But if you believe a man in a dress is talking to God, or that that God told Joseph Smith to go out and have sex with dozens of women, and I point out that is really stupid or silly.

BIGOT!!!!

When I point out that there are things in the history of these religions that indicate that there really isn't anything holy about them...

BIGOT!!!

To make it quite simple. Silly things do not become less silly if you dress them up in vestments and call them a religion..

Sorry, still silly no matter how you dress it up.

Pointing out a 'silly belief' is quite different from labeling the person who believes it as being stupid. Intelligent people have held incorrect beliefs from the dawn of man. And you really can't prove anything about the correctness or incorrectness of a person's religious beliefs. Until you can, you should consider yourself a bigot any time you label a person stupid based upon what you, yourself, merely believe but cannot prove.

That isn't true. A person's belief that the Earth is 6,000 years old (cuz it sez so in duh bibble) can be proven wrong. And yeah a person who believes in Genesis as literally told would be a stupid person. I have no problems being a bigot to stupidity. Dumb ideas shouldn't get special protection just because they're cloaked as a religion.

 

[BluePhantom]

I don't think it was "taken out of context". I think this is the robot slipping off his programming and showing us who he really is. "I like to be able to fire people" shows a mentality. I have money. I can push people around.

I like having the ability to fire people who don't perform up to my standards as well. So do you...or at least you should. It has nothing to do with pushing people around and everything to do with maintaining or establishing our freedom of choice.

The comment about illegals wasn't out of context. It was him showing who he was. If he wasn't running for office, he wouldn't have cared. The same with the line about "I don't care about the very poor". It shows who he is.

The former is a twist on his meaning. You assume that if he wasn't running for office he wouldn't have cared. He never said that. That is you projecting a given meaning to his comments that are not supported by his words. The latter....come on, Joe. As I said...you're no dummy. You know damn well he said there are programs in place for the poor and if they require fixing they will be fixed. But right now the middle class as a driver of the economy is the most important thing to address. Again you project callousness where none exists, or at least cannot be supported by his full statement.

Do I assume they are liars and con-artists? NOpe. Do I think they are coming from a skewed value system? Yup. I mean, just for shits and giggles, visit the five thousand post Mormon thread, if you want to see some of the handstands they go through to rationalize the silliness.

Oh I have debated Mormons before. I know the bullshit they come at you with and when they have nothing else to argue they simply say "you just haven't heard the words of Joseph Smith." I know....trust me....I know. But their value system being skewed is simply our own opinion. They would say our value system is skewed too. Of course I endorse meta-ethical moral relativism too so my perspective on what is "right", "wrong", "moral", "skewed", etc allows for a lot of crossover based upon a given society, sub-society, or geographical region. In other words: what is "skewed" or "moral" in Las Vegas is far different than what is "skewed" or "moral" in Salt Lake City and neither is "more correct" than the other.

I'd call it a pretty accurate one. More to the point, it shows more of the dishonesty. Romney's whole pitch is that he's a "job creator". But he actually destroyed jobs if there was money to be made in doing so. This "oops, you got in my way" mentality I think is wrecking this country and it's not what I want to see in a president. Sometimes you have to make harsh decisions that effect or in some cases cost people their lives. I wouldn't want someone who is callous about it.

Look...if you invest money in someone else's business venture you want it to succeed so you can get a good return on your investment. If it becomes clear that it is not going to succeed you are going to do what you can to get your investment back and minimize your losses. That's typical. That's what happens all over this country whether it's on a large scale or a small scale. That's exactly what I would do, and I imagine if you were in that situation it's exactly what you would do.