Is it "bigotry" to think a religion is stupid, silly or evil?

[Toro]

No one is talking about "Jews". If you can't really defend Mormon silliness, just admit that you can't and move on.

You don't think Joseph Smith was talking to God any more than I do.

Why do you feel the need to give special consideration to someone who thinks he was?

Incidently, most Christians I know realize that the Genesis story is a myth. Even in Catholic School, they copped to that in Sophmore year. If someone really did believe the world was only 6000 years old, I would take that very seriously into consideration.

But here's the point on that which will go over your head. Whoever wrote that story down in the Torah in ancient times was not making it up or trying to deceive. He was probably copying down an oral tradition that had been passed down to him from generations before, and as far as he knew, it was true.

Joseph Smith. Obviously lying and making it up. There was also some plagarism involved, but that's probably a little too inside baseball for this discussion. Pious Fraud is still Fraud.

I'm not defending Mormonism. If you weren't so obviously wrapped up in your own massive biases because you got screwed by Mormons and not by Jews/blacks/whomever, you would have figured that out by now.

So, if someone believes talking to God disqualifies one from becoming President, why doesn't believing a snake talking to Eve also disqualify someone from becoming President?

Well, I thought I pretty clearly said it does...

Incidently, I have been screwed over by a lot of people. It happens. And, no, I usually don't carry around 30 year grudges over it. The difference with the Mormons is that their behavior was so off, so creepy, so inexplicable that I felt it required further investigation.

And when that investigation was done, it was "Holy Shit! These people are WHACKED!"

Quite the contrary, sometimes I go out of my way to help people who've done nothing but be a pain in my ass if it's the right thing to do.

For instance, my last job, I had a coworker who stabbed me (and others) in the back at every oppurtunity. Mostly because of her own insecurities. Well, things go around that come around, the person whose ass her lips were firmly affixed to left, and his replacement was having none of it and fired her.

Now, here's the kicker. Through my resume business contacts I found out about a job she'd be a pretty good fit for. So I passed her information along to them. Wasn't a client, hadn't paid me to do her resume, but I helped her out because that was the right thing to do.

So, no, it isn't about "I hate you because you screwed me over". Yeah, maybe that gets me to take a look at you when I probably would have ignored you. (and between 1983 and 2008, how much I really thought about LDS? Not a whole lot.)

You are applying an obvious double standard. You assume that Romney believes everything in the Book of Mormon, and thus that makes him unqualified to be President. Yet, you have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. Yet, an evangelical like Mike Huckabee - and a lot of evangelicals do believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis - is OK in your book because you assume that he doesn't really believe that a snake talked to Eve, or I presume, other whacky biblical parables, like Noah gathering two of everything on earth and riding around on a boat for 40 days. Then you get all huffy about "Romney has never spoken about what he believes in," yet I get the feeling you don't make the same demand on other candidates whether or not they believe a snake talked to Eve. So, because of your own issues, you apply different standards to different people.

And I've never had a problem when I've dealt with Mormons.

 

[Oddball]

No, obvious to anyone with a lick of sense.

I'm assuming you're not a Mormon, so you don't think Joseph Smith was talking to God, either.

So why do you pretend that people who think he was deserve some kind of respect for believing a falsehood?

because the last time i checked, i wasn't joseph smith or god, and i don't judge others because of their beliefs or lack thereof.

obviously

bigot

Sophistry.

here's the thing. The only reason why you defend Romney's silly beliefs is you think he's going to do things you want done if the country has a collective brain fart and elects him.

You are willing to make a Faustian bargain because you don't like what Obama's doing.

I'm not.

If someone is a whacked out cultist with insane beliefs, I don't want him anywhere near the button that launches the nukes.

Yeah...Because if it's one thing that del is renowned for, it's making deals with the devil.

Oh, Priscilla!

 

[Valerie]

You don't blink an eye at Obama's mentor spewing anti-American rhetoric at the pulpit which Obama sat on the other side of for 20 years...Yet you feel threatened by Dudley Do Right Mitt Romney as if HE would ever harm American security...?

Didn't vote for Obama last time and won't vote for him this time.

But just because Jeremiah Wright is batshit crazy doesn't make the Mormons less batshit crazy...

As far as I'm concerned Romney has ALREADY harmed American security. His business practices at Bain have offshored thousands of manufacturing jobs and decreased our economic security.

Well, that just goes to show you're dumb dog stupid...AND bat shit crazy yourself for trying to use Religion as an excuse to railroad a Presidential candidate while expecting ANYone to take your phony fear over the nuke button even remotely seriously...

 

[Truthmatters]

see what happens when you stray from the plantation Joe?

 

[JoeB131]

You are applying an obvious double standard. You assume that Romney believes everything in the Book of Mormon, and thus that makes him unqualified to be President. Yet, you have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. Yet, an evangelical like Mike Huckabee - and a lot of evangelicals do believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis - is OK in your book because you assume that he doesn't really believe that a snake talked to Eve, or I presume, other whacky biblical parables, like Noah gathering two of everything on earth and riding around on a boat for 40 days. Then you get all huffy about "Romney has never spoken about what he believes in," yet I get the feeling you don't make the same demand on other candidates whether or not they believe a snake talked to Eve. So, because of your own issues, you apply different standards to different people.

And I've never had a problem when I've dealt with Mormons.

I've said those stories were whacky... so I'm not sure what your point here is....

Incidently, although I gave Mike a lookover in 2008, I still voted for McCain.

(What I like about Mike is that he gets it that the central tenat of Christianity is not "Tax cuts for rich douchebags")

But there is a major difference. The guys who wrote the bible were not intentionally lying.

They wrote down stories they really thought were true. Like most myths, these stories were attempts to explain what they didn't understand. We find these giant bones? Must have been Giants God killed with a flood.

And while the whole "Ark and animals" part of the story was made up, there is substantial evidence that there were massive floods in prehistory that was the source of the stories of Noah, Gilgamesh, Decaulion and every other Flood myth that was out there.

Joseph SMith made up stories to con less smart people out of their money and screw teenage girls. That's just a bit more malicious, don't you think? And, yes, I want to know if Romney really thinks that's true.

 

[Oddball]

see what happens when you stray from the plantation Joe?

It's what happens when you display blind bigotry, like you do all day every day.

Now, get back to your finger painting and quit eating the paste.

 

[Oddball]

You are applying an obvious double standard. You assume that Romney believes everything in the Book of Mormon, and thus that makes him unqualified to be President. Yet, you have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. Yet, an evangelical like Mike Huckabee - and a lot of evangelicals do believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis - is OK in your book because you assume that he doesn't really believe that a snake talked to Eve, or I presume, other whacky biblical parables, like Noah gathering two of everything on earth and riding around on a boat for 40 days. Then you get all huffy about "Romney has never spoken about what he believes in," yet I get the feeling you don't make the same demand on other candidates whether or not they believe a snake talked to Eve. So, because of your own issues, you apply different standards to different people.

And I've never had a problem when I've dealt with Mormons.

I've said those stories were whacky... so I'm not sure what your point here is....

Incidently, although I gave Mike a lookover in 2008, I still voted for McCain.

(What I like about Mike is that he gets it that the central tenat of Christianity is not "Tax cuts for rich douchebags")

But there is a major difference. The guys who wrote the bible were not intentionally lying.

They wrote down stories they really thought were true. Like most myths, these stories were attempts to explain what they didn't understand. We find these giant bones? Must have been Giants God killed with a flood.

And while the whole "Ark and animals" part of the story was made up, there is substantial evidence that there were massive floods in prehistory that was the source of the stories of Noah, Gilgamesh, Decaulion and every other Flood myth that was out there.

Joseph SMith made up stories to con less smart people out of their money and screw teenage girls. That's just a bit more malicious, don't you think? And, yes, I want to know if Romney really thinks that's true.

While we're at it, why don't we ask the rest of them if they really believe that Jonah spent three days and nights in the belly of a whale?

Putz.

 

[Katzndogz]

That's why the Founding Fathers of this country were so wise in affirming state's rights. Too bad we stopped listening.

Atheists should not be forced to respect that which they clearly disdain. Believers should not be forced to accommodate that which they clearly reject. Atheists and other types of non-believer do not want a person to believes in God as their leader. Split the nation. Get real, the time for inclusion is over.

 

[JoeB131]

Well, that just goes to show you're dumb dog stupid...AND bat shit crazy yourself for trying to use Religion as an excuse to railroad a Presidential candidate while expecting ANYone to take your phony fear over the nuke button even remotely seriously...

I would really like to keep this thread on the original topic and NOT make it another Romney thread. Because we are going to get a lot of those in the next 9 months as he proceeds to losing to Obama badly.

But, yes, I do think that the fact he belives in a silly and evil relgion to be a disqualifier.

I also think his slimy business practices where he's screwed over thousands of working schlubs just like me is a disqualifier.

So is the fact that he is willing to say whatever he thinks will fool people into voting for him. I would rather vote for a guy I disagreed with on an issue who was sincere than a guy who was just telling me what I want to hear.

But my biggest complaint- He's an awful candidate. He's going to lose.

He was an awful candidate in 1994, when he lost to Ted the Drunk.

he was an awful candidate in 2002, when he barely beat a non-entity whose name you will probably have to Wiki if I don't tell you what it is.

He was an awful candiate in 2008, when he lost to John McCain, who had been declared dead.

He's an awful candidate now when he's fighting for his political life against two political has beens and a crazy person, despite outspending them 5-1, because people in his own party are desperate for ANYONE else. If they show up at all, that is. He got 700 less votes in Maine last night than he got in 2008.

 

[mudwhistle]

The old line is "If a cripple needs a crutch do you kick it out from underneath them?".

I am fine with peopel believing what they want.

I am not fine with them thinking I must be forced to never point out their belief is based on no evidence.

I should not be forced into silence so you dont have to hear the facts.

I don't have a problem with anyone until they start telling me what I can eat, what I can drive, and start telling me I suck, my country sucks, and need to pay more in taxes.

I don't know any Mormons doing this. I do know Democrats that are.

 

[Ravi]

When I point out the truly stupid beliefs of the dumber Abrahamic religions, I get the typical jerks who can't really defend the point screaming "bigot" because I don't respect their silly beliefs.

The two biggest offenders being Mormons and Catholics.

I find the latter kind of Hilarious because I was raised Catholic, most of my relatives are practicing Catholics, and members of my family have worked in Church related enterprises for three generations.

But to the point, is pointing out the silliness of a belief offensive.

If you told me that you believed in Martians or Bigfoot or Santa Claus, and I responded with science and reason why these are silly beliefs, you probably wouldn't try to call me a bigot for not respecting your beliefs. You might even be inclined to say, "Yeah, when you put it that way, those things are kind of silly."

But if you believe a man in a dress is talking to God, or that that God told Joseph Smith to go out and have sex with dozens of women, and I point out that is really stupid or silly.

BIGOT!!!!

When I point out that there are things in the history of these religions that indicate that there really isn't anything holy about them...

BIGOT!!!

To make it quite simple. Silly things do not become less silly if you dress them up in vestments and call them a religion..

Sorry, still silly no matter how you dress it up.

Saying someone's beliefs are stupid isn't really bigotry. Believing you are better than them because of their beliefs is bigotry.

 

[Oldstyle]

No, obvious to anyone with a lick of sense.

I'm assuming you're not a Mormon, so you don't think Joseph Smith was talking to God, either.

So why do you pretend that people who think he was deserve some kind of respect for believing a falsehood?

because the last time i checked, i wasn't joseph smith or god, and i don't judge others because of their beliefs or lack thereof.

obviously

bigot

Sophistry.

here's the thing. The only reason why you defend Romney's silly beliefs is you think he's going to do things you want done if the country has a collective brain fart and elects him.

You are willing to make a Faustian bargain because you don't like what Obama's doing.

I'm not.

If someone is a whacked out cultist with insane beliefs, I don't want him anywhere near the button that launches the nukes.

That's laughable. Mitt Romney is a "whacked out cultist with insane beliefs"? Really? One of the more "vanilla" people on the freakin' planet but you think he's Jim Jones? You need to seriously get a grip on whatever phobia you have about Mormons, dude...you're making an ass of yourself over this issue.

 

[California Girl]

thinking is BAD to some

irony is humorous to all

Not all. Some don't get it.

 

[Katzndogz]

thinking is BAD to some

irony is humorous to all

Not all. Some don't get it.

It begs the question of who is it that doesn't get it.

If libs would stop pussyfooting around they would come right out and say that they would amend the Constitution's provision not requiring a religious test and impose a requirement that all presidents be atheists. If they aren't, then part of the oath of office would be to renounce their former religion.

It's worshippers that don't get it and understand what's really going on with all the silly and inane appearing complaints that libs come up with.

 

[Valerie]

I'm not defending Mormonism. If you weren't so obviously wrapped up in your own massive biases because you got screwed by Mormons and not by Jews/blacks/whomever, you would have figured that out by now.

So, if someone believes talking to God disqualifies one from becoming President, why doesn't believing a snake talking to Eve also disqualify someone from becoming President?

Well, I thought I pretty clearly said it does...

Incidently, I have been screwed over by a lot of people. It happens. And, no, I usually don't carry around 30 year grudges over it. The difference with the Mormons is that their behavior was so off, so creepy, so inexplicable that I felt it required further investigation.

And when that investigation was done, it was "Holy Shit! These people are WHACKED!"

Quite the contrary, sometimes I go out of my way to help people who've done nothing but be a pain in my ass if it's the right thing to do.

For instance, my last job, I had a coworker who stabbed me (and others) in the back at every oppurtunity. Mostly because of her own insecurities. Well, things go around that come around, the person whose ass her lips were firmly affixed to left, and his replacement was having none of it and fired her.

Now, here's the kicker. Through my resume business contacts I found out about a job she'd be a pretty good fit for. So I passed her information along to them. Wasn't a client, hadn't paid me to do her resume, but I helped her out because that was the right thing to do.

So, no, it isn't about "I hate you because you screwed me over". Yeah, maybe that gets me to take a look at you when I probably would have ignored you. (and between 1983 and 2008, how much I really thought about LDS? Not a whole lot.)

You are applying an obvious double standard. You assume that Romney believes everything in the Book of Mormon, and thus that makes him unqualified to be President. Yet, you have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. Yet, an evangelical like Mike Huckabee - and a lot of evangelicals do believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis - is OK in your book because you assume that he doesn't really believe that a snake talked to Eve, or I presume, other whacky biblical parables, like Noah gathering two of everything on earth and riding around on a boat for 40 days. Then you get all huffy about "Romney has never spoken about what he believes in," yet I get the feeling you don't make the same demand on other candidates whether or not they believe a snake talked to Eve. So, because of your own issues, you apply different standards to different people.

And I've never had a problem when I've dealt with Mormons.

Yep. And there is a real irony here to how they want to paint the perception of Mitt Romney as some sort of mindless robot with waffling beliefs like a candle in the wind...

Joe even proudly cites how Obama was willing to throw his Mentor, the man who performed his Wedding "under the bus"...........



Decades ago political spin meisters whispered in Mitt Romney's ear how he'd never win as a Mormon, how he never had a chance as a Mormon candidate, how he should switch over to some other Christian denomination so as to be more palatable to the American voter...

Mitt Romney stood by his family legacy, and the Religion of his father and his grandfather who inspired him to be a good man dedicated to Family, Faith and Country...


"Given our grand tradition of religious tolerance and liberty, some wonder whether there are any questions regarding an aspiring candidate's religion that are appropriate. I believe there are. And I will answer them today.

"Almost 50 years ago another candidate from Massachusetts explained that he was an American running for president, not a Catholic running for president. Like him, I am an American running for president. I do not define my candidacy by my religion. A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.

"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin.

"As governor, I tried to do the right as best I knew it, serving the law and answering to the Constitution. I did not confuse the particular teachings of my church with the obligations of the office and of the Constitution - and of course, I would not do so as president. I will put no doctrine of any church above the plain duties of the office and the sovereign authority of the law.
Transcript: Mitt Romney's Faith Speech : NPR

 

[Toro]

You are applying an obvious double standard. You assume that Romney believes everything in the Book of Mormon, and thus that makes him unqualified to be President. Yet, you have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. Yet, an evangelical like Mike Huckabee - and a lot of evangelicals do believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis - is OK in your book because you assume that he doesn't really believe that a snake talked to Eve, or I presume, other whacky biblical parables, like Noah gathering two of everything on earth and riding around on a boat for 40 days. Then you get all huffy about "Romney has never spoken about what he believes in," yet I get the feeling you don't make the same demand on other candidates whether or not they believe a snake talked to Eve. So, because of your own issues, you apply different standards to different people.

And I've never had a problem when I've dealt with Mormons.

I've said those stories were whacky... so I'm not sure what your point here is....

Incidently, although I gave Mike a lookover in 2008, I still voted for McCain.

(What I like about Mike is that he gets it that the central tenat of Christianity is not "Tax cuts for rich douchebags")

But there is a major difference. The guys who wrote the bible were not intentionally lying.

They wrote down stories they really thought were true. Like most myths, these stories were attempts to explain what they didn't understand. We find these giant bones? Must have been Giants God killed with a flood.

And while the whole "Ark and animals" part of the story was made up, there is substantial evidence that there were massive floods in prehistory that was the source of the stories of Noah, Gilgamesh, Decaulion and every other Flood myth that was out there.

Joseph SMith made up stories to con less smart people out of their money and screw teenage girls. That's just a bit more malicious, don't you think? And, yes, I want to know if Romney really thinks that's true.

The point that you are clearly missing is that Mormonism has whacky ideas and so does Christianity and so does every other religion. People selectively choose what they want to believe in religion, so holding some religious people to one standard and other religious people to others - "All Mormons believe all the whacky Mormon stuff while all Christians do not" - is a blatant and nonsensical double standard.

Bigotry is not disagreeing with someone. Bigotry is assuming that all members of a group act a specific way and being intolerant of all the individuals in the group because of your own preconceived views. Making lists of people whom you know are duplicitous and not doing business with them is not bigotry. Making lists of people whom you assume are duplicitous because they are Mormons and not doing business with them is bigotry.

 

[Oddball]

You are applying an obvious double standard. You assume that Romney believes everything in the Book of Mormon, and thus that makes him unqualified to be President. Yet, you have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. Yet, an evangelical like Mike Huckabee - and a lot of evangelicals do believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis - is OK in your book because you assume that he doesn't really believe that a snake talked to Eve, or I presume, other whacky biblical parables, like Noah gathering two of everything on earth and riding around on a boat for 40 days. Then you get all huffy about "Romney has never spoken about what he believes in," yet I get the feeling you don't make the same demand on other candidates whether or not they believe a snake talked to Eve. So, because of your own issues, you apply different standards to different people.

And I've never had a problem when I've dealt with Mormons.

I've said those stories were whacky... so I'm not sure what your point here is....

Incidently, although I gave Mike a lookover in 2008, I still voted for McCain.

(What I like about Mike is that he gets it that the central tenat of Christianity is not "Tax cuts for rich douchebags")

But there is a major difference. The guys who wrote the bible were not intentionally lying.

They wrote down stories they really thought were true. Like most myths, these stories were attempts to explain what they didn't understand. We find these giant bones? Must have been Giants God killed with a flood.

And while the whole "Ark and animals" part of the story was made up, there is substantial evidence that there were massive floods in prehistory that was the source of the stories of Noah, Gilgamesh, Decaulion and every other Flood myth that was out there.

Joseph SMith made up stories to con less smart people out of their money and screw teenage girls. That's just a bit more malicious, don't you think? And, yes, I want to know if Romney really thinks that's true.

The point that you are clearly missing is that Mormonism has whacky ideas and so does Christianity and so does every other religion. People selectively choose what they want to believe in religion, so holding religious people to one standard and not others - "All Mormons believe all the whacky Mormon stuff while all Christians do not" - is a blatant and nonsensical double standard.

See my poignant sig.

 

[HUGGY]

because the last time i checked, i wasn't joseph smith or god, and i don't judge others because of their beliefs or lack thereof.

obviously

bigot

Sophistry.

here's the thing. The only reason why you defend Romney's silly beliefs is you think he's going to do things you want done if the country has a collective brain fart and elects him.

You are willing to make a Faustian bargain because you don't like what Obama's doing.

I'm not.

If someone is a whacked out cultist with insane beliefs, I don't want him anywhere near the button that launches the nukes.

That's laughable. Mitt Romney is a "whacked out cultist with insane beliefs"? Really? One of the more "vanilla" people on the freakin' planet but you think he's Jim Jones? You need to seriously get a grip on whatever phobia you have about Mormons, dude...you're making an ass of yourself over this issue.

Take away the kool aid and there is little difference.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

You have no right to force your beliefs on anyone, or oblige them to agree with you. That goes for your nihilism as well.

As TM noted, it is not civil to knock out a crutch that folks need. Religion does fulfill a basic human need and we should respect everyone's right to believe in insane things. That does not give anyone the right to lecture anyone else. If they come to you for the lecture, that is one thing. Making them listen with no escape is another.

I have no more respect or disdain for Mormanism than I do for any other religion.


Bigotry is assuming too much from one fact and painting everyone with your caricature. Rdean is the perfect example of a bigot. Republican means ignorant white dude lacking a high school diploma. Folks like Clarence Thomas (Doctorate in law, catholic, black) or Ben Stein (Doctor of Econ, jewish) or even the guy at the 19th tee at the local golf club who works as a surgeon at the local hospital who might be republican cause him brain farts.

There may be mormans who are as bad as you say. My personal experience is a bit different. So your experience is not universal. Saying all mormans are that way, that is bigotry

 

[edthecynic]

When I point out the truly stupid beliefs of the dumber Abrahamic religions, I get the typical jerks who can't really defend the point screaming "bigot" because I don't respect their silly beliefs.

The two biggest offenders being Mormons and Catholics.

I find the latter kind of Hilarious because I was raised Catholic, most of my relatives are practicing Catholics, and members of my family have worked in Church related enterprises for three generations.

But to the point, is pointing out the silliness of a belief offensive.

If you told me that you believed in Martians or Bigfoot or Santa Claus, and I responded with science and reason why these are silly beliefs, you probably wouldn't try to call me a bigot for not respecting your beliefs. You might even be inclined to say, "Yeah, when you put it that way, those things are kind of silly."

But if you believe a man in a dress is talking to God, or that that God told Joseph Smith to go out and have sex with dozens of women, and I point out that is really stupid or silly.

BIGOT!!!!

When I point out that there are things in the history of these religions that indicate that there really isn't anything holy about them...

BIGOT!!!

To make it quite simple. Silly things do not become less silly if you dress them up in vestments and call them a religion..

Sorry, still silly no matter how you dress it up.

"When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion."
— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)