Is capitalism obselete?

[DavidS]

Perhaps if we look to the other European countries, such as Britan, Sweden, France and so on, perhaps it's time to consider their methods of partial-nationalization of our banking industry to prevent another Great Depression. We've seen what a lack of regulation can do to our economy... if the government controlled the decisions of the businesses that are critical to our economy, perhaps the whole idea recessions and depressions will become obselete.

What do you think?

 

[wimpy77]

go to yahoo or cnbc and read looks like the government is going to put a 40% stake in citi

 

[xsited1]

Perhaps if we look to the other European countries, such as Britan, Sweden, France and so on, perhaps it's time to consider their methods of partial-nationalization of our banking industry to prevent another Great Depression. We've seen what a lack of regulation can do to our economy... if the government controlled the decisions of the businesses that are critical to our economy, perhaps the whole idea recessions and depressions will become obselete.

What do you think?

You want us to look at countries with higher unemployment, lower productivity and more government control? Do you remember why people left Europe to come to the New World in the first place?

Regardless, the US will become like a European country in short-order simply because the government has gotten too big and intrusive. We've reached critical mass and we can't go back.

 

[DavidS]

go to yahoo or cnbc and read looks like the government is going to put a 40% stake in citi

that's not nationalization. The gov't would have to own more than 50% of the corporation for it be government owned.

 

[DavidS]

Perhaps if we look to the other European countries, such as Britan, Sweden, France and so on, perhaps it's time to consider their methods of partial-nationalization of our banking industry to prevent another Great Depression. We've seen what a lack of regulation can do to our economy... if the government controlled the decisions of the businesses that are critical to our economy, perhaps the whole idea recessions and depressions will become obselete.

What do you think?

You want us to look at countries with higher unemployment, lower productivity and more government control? Do you remember why people left Europe to come to the New World in the first place?

Regardless, the US will become like a European country in short-order simply because the government has gotten too big and intrusive. We've reached critical mass and we can't go back.

Too big and intrusive??

Who created this mess in the first place??

 

[Agnapostate]

European countries are still capitalist countries, David; it's simply a distinction between the liberal democratic and the social democratic. That being said, I'm willing to part with the anarchist "establishment" and concede that social democracy is preferable to its liberal democratic variant in the U.S.

You want us to look at countries with higher unemployment, lower productivity and more government control? Do you remember why people left Europe to come to the New World in the first place?

Regardless, the US will become like a European country in short-order simply because the government has gotten too big and intrusive. We've reached critical mass and we can't go back.

I'll be openly dubious of that, inasmuch as your claims about the inherent failure of social democracy are not supported by viable empirical evidence, as primarily indicated by Heading et al.'s Is There a Trade-Off Between Economic Efficiency and a Generous Welfare State? A Comparison of Best Cases of `The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism’ Consider the abstract:

A crucial debate in policy-making as well as academic circles is whether there is a trade-off between economic efficiency and the size/generosity of the welfare state. One way to contribute to this debate is to compare the performance of best cases of different types of state. Arguably, in the decade 1985-94, the US, West Germany and the Netherlands were best cases - best economic performers - in what G. Esping-Andersen calls the three worlds of welfare capitalism. The US is a liberal welfare-capitalist state, West Germany a corporatist state, and the Netherlands is social democratic in its tax-transfer system, although not its labor market policies. These three countries had rates of economic growth per capita as high or higher than other rich countries of their type, and the lowest rates of unemployment. At a normative or ideological level the three types of state have the same goals but prioritise them differently. The liberal state prioritises economic growth and efficiency, avoids work disincentives, and targets welfare benefits only to those in greatest need. The corporatist state aims to give priority to social stability, especially household income stability, and social integration. The social democratic welfare state claims high priority for minimising poverty, inequality and unemployment. Using ten years of panel data for each country, we assess indicators of their short (one year), medium (five year) and longer term (ten year) performance in achieving economic and welfare goals. Overall, in this time period, the Netherlands achieved the best performance on the welfare goals to which it gave priority, and equalled the other two states on most of the goals to which they gave priority. This result supports the view that there is no necessary trade-off between economic efficiency and a generous welfare state.

Hence, though I have long acknowledged that social democracy is incapable of ending the business cycle or certain other deleterious effects of capitalism, it does tend to minimize or neutralize other negative consequences while not sacrificing economic efficiency while doing so.

 

[Charles_Main]

Silly question

 

[Agnapostate]

Silly question

I agree. It implies that capitalism was functional at one point.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Perhaps if we look to the other European countries, such as Britan, Sweden, France and so on, perhaps it's time to consider their methods of partial-nationalization of our banking industry to prevent another Great Depression. We've seen what a lack of regulation can do to our economy... if the government controlled the decisions of the businesses that are critical to our economy, perhaps the whole idea recessions and depressions will become obselete.

What do you think?

You want us to look at countries with higher unemployment, lower productivity and more government control? Do you remember why people left Europe to come to the New World in the first place?

Regardless, the US will become like a European country in short-order simply because the government has gotten too big and intrusive. We've reached critical mass and we can't go back.

Too big and intrusive??

Who created this mess in the first place??

The federal government and the Federal Reserve.

 

[editec]

If we are to believe the plan as currently structured

Those banks which are too big to fail, will be saved.

The government will take on their toxic debts, thus putting them back on line to lend money.

The, again, if we are to believe their hopes will come true, the government will sell off its shares of the banks and restructure the toxic debts to be less toxic, when the market is prepared to buy them.

This is, as I recall the basic model they used when the Saving and Loan swindle happened.

The Resolution Trust took over banks that were failing, propped them up, and sold off their real estate that was under water as the market recovered.

Will it work this time?

I am not in a position to know.

 

[Toro]

No.

Capitalism is the greatest force for wealth creation in history. Of course it is not dead.

Europe is a capitalist society, just like America. But it is a mixed economy, just like America, only a bit more reliant on the government.

This isn't a crisis of capitalism. It is a crisis of financial capitalism. Big difference. And the way you fix it is not difficult, at least in theory - you make sure the financial institutions are well capitalized.

 

[DavidS]

You want us to look at countries with higher unemployment, lower productivity and more government control? Do you remember why people left Europe to come to the New World in the first place?

Regardless, the US will become like a European country in short-order simply because the government has gotten too big and intrusive. We've reached critical mass and we can't go back.

Too big and intrusive??

Who created this mess in the first place??

The federal government and the Federal Reserve.

Oh yeah, you're right. Because it was the federal government that made all of these bad loans and sold them overseas as securities, right? It was the federal government that caused this recession, right?

 

[elvis]

Too big and intrusive??

Who created this mess in the first place??

The federal government and the Federal Reserve.

Oh yeah, you're right. Because it was the federal government that made all of these bad loans and sold them overseas as securities, right? It was the federal government that caused this recession, right?

What about when Clinton put pressure on the banks to divvy out loans to people who could not afford them, in exchange for deregulation?

 

[Truthmatters]

They will think that in the light of all the contrary evidence to the truth.

This was caused by deregulation and failure of the government to react to the problems caused by deregulation.

Its the death nell of the current republican partys ideals so they will pretend it was caused by something else.

They will fight the cure and claim its socialism when the government could be paid back at the sell of these intities once they are sound again.

They are married to failed ideas and some will embrace them until they die.

I dont know why people do this but its plain for any sane person to see what caused this mess.

 

[Truthmatters]

The federal government and the Federal Reserve.

Oh yeah, you're right. Because it was the federal government that made all of these bad loans and sold them overseas as securities, right? It was the federal government that caused this recession, right?

What about when Clinton put pressure on the banks to divvy out loans to people who could not afford them, in exchange for deregulation?

And those loans created next to no problems in the ecvonomy until Gramm Leach Bliely act 1999 took effect.

 

[jillian]

What about when Clinton put pressure on the banks to divvy out loans to people who could not afford them, in exchange for deregulation?

one mo' time... that was never the requirement of the law. the requirement was that minority areas not be redlined... not that the banks forego their own risk assessments.

if you believe otherwise, it's really time for someone to provide proof of it instead of just repeating the same misstatement over and over and over and over and over....

 

[editec]

They will think that in the light of all the contrary evidence to the truth.

This was caused by deregulation and failure of the government to react to the problems caused by deregulation.

Its the death nell of the current republican partys ideals so they will pretend it was caused by something else.

They will fight the cure and claim its socialism when the government could be paid back at the sell of these intities once they are sound again.

They are married to failed ideas and some will embrace them until they die.

I dont know why people do this but its plain for any sane person to see what caused this mess.

You don't?

Maybe this will help you understand the recipe the Ds and Rs are cooking our society with:

Who stole the cookies from the cookie jar?
The Reps stole the cookies from the cookie jar..
Who ME?
Yes, YOU!
Couldn't be.
Then who?
The Dems stole the cookies from the cookie jar​

Directions for use by DNC and RNC :
Repeat as needed, until the nation is bankrupted and you and your cronnies have all the money, and the people have all the debts.​

Then move to your ranchero in Patagonia and let the victims kill each other.​

 

[Truthmatters]

editec,

Not everyone in the system is evil.

Just giving up is not an option for me, you go ahead if thats all you care to do for our country.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Too big and intrusive??

Who created this mess in the first place??

The federal government and the Federal Reserve.

Oh yeah, you're right. Because it was the federal government that made all of these bad loans and sold them overseas as securities, right? It was the federal government that caused this recession, right?

Right. But let's not forget about the Federal Reserve artificially lowering the interest rates.

 

[editec]

editec,

Not everyone in the system is evil.

Just giving up is not an option for me, you go ahead if thats all you care to do for our country.

Yeah, I know.

In fact many of them are thoroughly decent people who simply cannot understand why, while they're safely snug in their caccoons of Federalism, the rest of us (who are not) are ready to tear their heads off.

But when you ask these thoroughly decent people hard questions, don't expect to get anything like an answer that you might expect from someone who presumably must NOT be retarded, given that they are in such august positions of power.

Suddenly their every utterence is little more than meaningless spinning non-reality based partisan blather.

And hey, I speak from first hand experience here.

I am describing more Dems now than REPs since I have better access to the Ds than Rs.

They're either clueless (which I doubt) or full of beans, my friend.