Indiana makes it legal to shoot cops who illegally enter your home

[Quantum Windbag]

I work law enforcement and even I support this. Police should not be entering your home without a warrant to begin with unless they have to intervene with a crime in progress.

Bravo. I know there are good LEOs out there, it is nice to see one posting on the board.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I work law enforcement and even I support this. Police should not be entering your home without a warrant to begin with unless they have to intervene with a crime in progress.

Thanks.
Most LEOs (vast majority) are decent hard working guys trying to do the right thing and dealing with sleazeballs. There are a few jerk offs who think the badge is a license to do whatever they want. This law is aimed at them.

I'm just wondering how this is going to work out when it comes to Game wardens, because a game warden CAN enter your house without a warrant to do his job in most states, I am not sure how Indianas is set up, but I am sure they have that right there as well. I wonder if they put a stipulation in there protecting them.

The law doesn't say you can resist a legal search, it says you can resist illegal entry. Even a game warden cannot break into your house to steal something.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All right. Let's think this through.

The cops get a warrant to enter a house. Due to some kind of screwup along the line, they enter the wrong house.

If you are innocent and hear the cops illegally breaking into your house, are you going to say to yourself, "Oh, I can start shooting these guys legally!"?

Sure. Go right ahead. How likely is your survival if you start blasting away at a boatload of cops?

From the cops' perspective, a bad guy opened up on them and they responded with about 438 rounds. You're dead. Your wife is dead. Your baby is dead. Your dog is dead. The fleas in your bed are dead.

I'd say this law has made it inevitable that a lot more innocent people are going to get killed.

Care to bet on it?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All right. Let's think this through.

The cops get a warrant to enter a house. Due to some kind of screwup along the line, they enter the wrong house.

If you are innocent and hear the cops illegally breaking into your house, are you going to say to yourself, "Oh, I can start shooting these guys legally!"?

Sure. Go right ahead. How likely is your survival if you start blasting away at a boatload of cops?

From the cops' perspective, a bad guy opened up on them and they responded with about 438 rounds. You're dead. Your wife is dead. Your baby is dead. Your dog is dead. The fleas in your bed are dead.

I'd say this law has made it inevitable that a lot more innocent people are going to get killed.

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

Cops should be required to only serve warrants by knocking on the door and waiting for the owner to answer. More cops are killed by stupid raids on people who are peaceful than get killed taking down actual violent suspects that would shoot police on sight. The reason for that is pretty simple, that type of criminal is extremely rare. There have probably been less than 20 in the entire history of this country.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

If they think a mistake was made with the warrant they shouldn't execute it. Duh.

They dont know a mistake is made until AFTER it's been served. Duh. Those are thankfully quite uncommon, but do happen. For example, especially on drug warrants. A snitch says "Joe Blow" lives at the white house on Main Street, 5th one on the right. And drives the cops there and points to it. Unfortunately, Joe Blow was drunk and high when he was at the house party, and the correct house is actually the white house, on Main, 5th one on the RIGHT.

Warrant was issued. Cops have all reason to believe it is right. Wrong house. They find out once inside, and it's a soccer mom and 55 year old husband. Damn. Nobody is hurt thank goodness. PD should pay for the families busted door and kiss some major ass to apologize, then take away Joe Blow's plea deal.

But you still dont want bullets flying. We aren't Mexico. If the cops show up, there is a 99.999999% chance they are there in good faith, and if you cooperate, and they are wrong, you'll come out fine, especially if it is just the wrong house. If you are committing a crime, but they didn't do the warrant right, you'll likely get off at court. Bullets are never the answer.

Until now, obviously, since these politicians decided to give residents the right to make that choice.

I am willing to bet that if police stopped using no knock warrants no one would ever shoot them by mistake.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

All right. Let's think this through.

The cops get a warrant to enter a house. Due to some kind of screwup along the line, they enter the wrong house.

If you are innocent and hear the cops illegally breaking into your house, are you going to say to yourself, "Oh, I can start shooting these guys legally!"?

Sure. Go right ahead. How likely is your survival if you start blasting away at a boatload of cops?

From the cops' perspective, a bad guy opened up on them and they responded with about 438 rounds. You're dead. Your wife is dead. Your baby is dead. Your dog is dead. The fleas in your bed are dead.

I'd say this law has made it inevitable that a lot more innocent people are going to get killed.

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

Cops should be required to only serve warrants by knocking on the door and waiting for the owner to answer. More cops are killed by stupid raids on people who are peaceful than get killed taking down actual violent suspects that would shoot police on sight. The reason for that is pretty simple, that type of criminal is extremely rare. There have probably been less than 20 in the entire history of this country.

You are neglecting the legitimate concern that the occupant may be destroying evidence and/or continuing a violent illegal act.

I think it matters what the suspected crime is. If you think they are destroying evidence they are growing pot - its not worth anyone dying over - but if they are disposing of the body parts of their murder victims - that's entirely different.

I remember in Baton Rouge a few years back a non-violent pot grower was shot dead by the cops but he took one of them with him in defense of his own life. He had bought a weapon when criminals had stolen his crop - and we will never know for sure what was in his head when he pulled the trigger. Its entirely possible he legitimately feared for his life. He had no priors and his only crime was growing pot - it wasn't worth his life or the life of the officer.

 

[The Rabbi]

And about half of cops dont know the law very well either. It will sure make them think twice about executing a no knock warrant in the dark based on testimony of a very dodgy informant.

Source? Cops all go through police academies, which have fairly intensive legals courses. Sure, they dont know all the stupid petty city ordinances. Almost no one could (meaning there are way too many of those fucking laws). But the basic criminal laws, ESPECIALLY the 4th amendment? 99% of cops know those very well.


Second.....no knock warrants aren't legal, UNLESS they have been authorized by a judge. That judge must see all facts, and determine that there is reasonable belief that the knock would present an immediate danger to the officers (like the suspect is known to own an AK or something). All other warrants require a knock and announce. Problem is.....most petty criminals like to pretend they aren't home, or have ipod buds in, or are asleep, or their music is too loud, or for whatever reason dont answer the door.

All warrants are issued by a judge.
Maryland Police Conduct Another Mistaken “No Knock” Raid on a House, Bust Down Front Door, and Later Ticket Owner for Having a Door Laying on This Front Yard « JONATHAN TURLEY

It happens. And homeowners ought to be able to defend themselves.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

They dont know a mistake is made until AFTER it's been served. Duh. Those are thankfully quite uncommon, but do happen. For example, especially on drug warrants. A snitch says "Joe Blow" lives at the white house on Main Street, 5th one on the right. And drives the cops there and points to it. Unfortunately, Joe Blow was drunk and high when he was at the house party, and the correct house is actually the white house, on Main, 5th one on the RIGHT.

Warrant was issued. Cops have all reason to believe it is right. Wrong house. They find out once inside, and it's a soccer mom and 55 year old husband. Damn. Nobody is hurt thank goodness. PD should pay for the families busted door and kiss some major ass to apologize, then take away Joe Blow's plea deal.

But you still dont want bullets flying. We aren't Mexico. If the cops show up, there is a 99.999999% chance they are there in good faith, and if you cooperate, and they are wrong, you'll come out fine, especially if it is just the wrong house. If you are committing a crime, but they didn't do the warrant right, you'll likely get off at court. Bullets are never the answer.

Until now, obviously, since these politicians decided to give residents the right to make that choice.

Soccer mom and 55yr old husband at home peacefully watching TV ad group of armed men break down their door.
Scenario 1) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop, goes to jail.
Scenario 2) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop and goes free.

I know which outcome I want.

You ever been on a tactical entry?

THAT scenario is exactly why they:

1) Knock and announce.

If no answer, they:

1) Breach door (kick or ram)
2) Pause....YELL "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT, POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" into the open door.
3) First two go in, with big ass patches on their vests that say "POLICE", and big bullet proof shields that say POLICE on the front.
4) As this happens, they continue to yell "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT, POLICE SEARCH WARRANT".

Now, if that dad can't read, or doesn't hear the 12 mean screaming police into his open front door, or hear them screaming "POLICE DEPARTMENT, SEARCH WARRANT" as they move into the open door, well, can't argue with that. Although I never once experienced someone who didn't know it was the cops coming in.

I love it the way the police yell really loud to identify themselves after they pound on the door here.

Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam - YouTube!

 

[Ravi]

Its interesting how people who cry " follow the constitution" are whining because they want to have the right to break the 4th amendment.

The punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Its interesting how people who cry " follow the constitution" are whining because they want to have the right to break the 4th amendment.

Damn, how stupid can you get? Tell me something genius, how can I possibly break the Fourth Amendment? In case you have trouble remember ing what it says I will quote it for you.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[The Rabbi]

There seems to be a strange alliance here between the normally brain dead leftists and the conservatives.
I am all in favor of allowing citizens to protect themselves from any illegal intrusion in their homes, regardless of who is committing it.
This bill seems to do just that.
I don't see a problem.

 

[Sallow]

This is an outstandingingly bad idea.

Amazingly so..on par with the "Stand your ground" crapola.

And it will lead to both dead cops..and citizens.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

Cops should be required to only serve warrants by knocking on the door and waiting for the owner to answer. More cops are killed by stupid raids on people who are peaceful than get killed taking down actual violent suspects that would shoot police on sight. The reason for that is pretty simple, that type of criminal is extremely rare. There have probably been less than 20 in the entire history of this country.

You are neglecting the legitimate concern that the occupant may be destroying evidence and/or continuing a violent illegal act.

I think it matters what the suspected crime is. If you think they are destroying evidence they are growing pot - its not worth anyone dying over - but if they are disposing of the body parts of their murder victims - that's entirely different.

I remember in Baton Rouge a few years back a non-violent pot grower was shot dead by the cops but he took one of them with him in defense of his own life. He had bought a weapon when criminals had stolen his crop - and we will never know for sure what was in his head when he pulled the trigger. Its entirely possible he legitimately feared for his life. He had no priors and his only crime was growing pot - it wasn't worth his life or the life of the officer.

No I am not, I don't think that concern is legitimate. What are they going to do, transport the evidence onto the Enterprise? The evidence will still be there, and the police will be alive. You cannot flush massive amounts of drugs, especially if the police cut the water supply first.

The way I see it is the evidence is still there, and the cops live through the experience. Sounds a lot better than them going in unannounced, killing the kids who are sleeping in the next room, getting shot because the guy coming through the back door trips over the cat, and there not being any evidence because they were in the wrong house.

 

[Katzndogz]

Considering the rise in the number of home invasion robberies by criminals pretending to be police, this law makes some kind of sense, even though it will result in the homeowner and the police likely to open fire first and question who it was later.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Its interesting how people who cry " follow the constitution" are whining because they want to have the right to break the 4th amendment.

The punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

The reward for breaking into the wrong house and shooting at innocent people should not be a medal for valor either. Personally, I find the idea that police get an award for being wrong more offensive than a cop getting killed because he broke the law.

Editorial: Why give awards in botched police raid? | StarTribune.com

 

[Ravi]

Its interesting how people who cry " follow the constitution" are whining because they want to have the right to break the 4th amendment.

The punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

The reward for breaking into the wrong house and shooting at innocent people should not be a medal for valor either. Personally, I find the idea that police get an award for being wrong more offensive than a cop getting killed because he broke the law.

Editorial: Why give awards in botched police raid? | StarTribune.com

They certainly shouldn't have been awarded anything.

That doesn't change the fact that the punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Cops should be required to only serve warrants by knocking on the door and waiting for the owner to answer. More cops are killed by stupid raids on people who are peaceful than get killed taking down actual violent suspects that would shoot police on sight. The reason for that is pretty simple, that type of criminal is extremely rare. There have probably been less than 20 in the entire history of this country.

You are neglecting the legitimate concern that the occupant may be destroying evidence and/or continuing a violent illegal act.

I think it matters what the suspected crime is. If you think they are destroying evidence they are growing pot - its not worth anyone dying over - but if they are disposing of the body parts of their murder victims - that's entirely different.

I remember in Baton Rouge a few years back a non-violent pot grower was shot dead by the cops but he took one of them with him in defense of his own life. He had bought a weapon when criminals had stolen his crop - and we will never know for sure what was in his head when he pulled the trigger. Its entirely possible he legitimately feared for his life. He had no priors and his only crime was growing pot - it wasn't worth his life or the life of the officer.

No I am not, I don't think that concern is legitimate. What are they going to do, transport the evidence onto the Enterprise? The evidence will still be there, and the police will be alive. You cannot flush massive amounts of drugs, especially if the police cut the water supply first.

Maybe so but you can light it on fire. If its a drug like meth you may be able to react it with some chemicals and destroy it that way. If you planned ahead you might have enough water stored up to flush as much as you need down the toilet. Certainly if you knew ahead of time the cops would give you as much time as you needed, you'd probably have a good plan to destroy the evidence!

Clearly if you give someone as much time as they need they will find a way to at least minimize the evidence. You could take pot plants, run them through a blender, and spread the result evenly throughout your carpeted home, and there's no way the cops will be able to collect it all.

The way I see it is the evidence is still there, and the cops live through the experience.

I think the problem is more fundamental. Its the fact the growing pot IS a felony that is the problem. I figure, if its not worth a cop risking his life to stop it, its not worth making it a very serious crime. Would you agree?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

The punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

The reward for breaking into the wrong house and shooting at innocent people should not be a medal for valor either. Personally, I find the idea that police get an award for being wrong more offensive than a cop getting killed because he broke the law.

Editorial: Why give awards in botched police raid? | StarTribune.com

They certainly shouldn't have been awarded anything.

That doesn't change the fact that the punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

Should the punishment for going to the wrong house for a Halloween party be death?

 

[Ravi]

The reward for breaking into the wrong house and shooting at innocent people should not be a medal for valor either. Personally, I find the idea that police get an award for being wrong more offensive than a cop getting killed because he broke the law.

Editorial: Why give awards in botched police raid? | StarTribune.com

They certainly shouldn't have been awarded anything.

That doesn't change the fact that the punishment for a bad warrant shouldn't be death.

Should the punishment for going to the wrong house for a Halloween party be death?

No.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Wow. This is awful. All the OWS morons who think EVERYTHING a cop does is illegal will think shooting any cop when they come to their home is ok. They'll think every drug search warrant is "illegal" and think they can shoot the cops.

If I were an Indiana cop, my response time would be VERY extended, if I showed up at all. Fuck it, let the people fend for themselves.

Good grief, we agree.