Indiana makes it legal to shoot cops who illegally enter your home

[Ravi]

All right. Let's think this through.

The cops get a warrant to enter a house. Due to some kind of screwup along the line, they enter the wrong house.

If you are innocent and hear the cops illegally breaking into your house, are you going to say to yourself, "Oh, I can start shooting these guys legally!"?

Sure. Go right ahead. How likely is your survival if you start blasting away at a boatload of cops?

From the cops' perspective, a bad guy opened up on them and they responded with about 438 rounds. You're dead. Your wife is dead. Your baby is dead. Your dog is dead. The fleas in your bed are dead.

I'd say this law has made it inevitable that a lot more innocent people are going to get killed.

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

If they think a mistake was made with the warrant they shouldn't execute it. Duh.

If I were a cop in Indiana, then, I would think a mistake was made with any warrant given to me.

 

[Ravi]

All right. Let's think this through.

The cops get a warrant to enter a house. Due to some kind of screwup along the line, they enter the wrong house.

If you are innocent and hear the cops illegally breaking into your house, are you going to say to yourself, "Oh, I can start shooting these guys legally!"?

Sure. Go right ahead. How likely is your survival if you start blasting away at a boatload of cops?

From the cops' perspective, a bad guy opened up on them and they responded with about 438 rounds. You're dead. Your wife is dead. Your baby is dead. Your dog is dead. The fleas in your bed are dead.

I'd say this law has made it inevitable that a lot more innocent people are going to get killed.

100% right.

The danger here is it allows the resident to interpret what they think is legal and illegal IN THE MOMENT and, in their minds now, they think they can shoot the cops legally. Just saying....90% of the general public doesn't know the law very well, especially the 4th amendment dealing with searches and warrants.

For example, flushing drugs is considered destruction of evidence, and the 4th amendment allows cops to enter a home, without a warrant, to prevent destruction of evidence. But some OWS moron who sees the cops at his door, and starts flushing when they enter, MAY think they are entering unlawfully. When in fact, a cop is watching from a window as they try to flush it, and radio that to the front, and they enter. In this example, you'd have a resident who thinks they can legally shoot the cops because (in their mind) they are entering "without a warrant", when in fact, it is a legal entry to preserve evidence. But.....bullets will still fly.

Stupid, dangerous law.

Same thing with Florida's Stand Your Ground law.

 

[Katzndogz]

End result, the police are going to start shooting first. This is one of those laws that look real good on paper but don't work that well.

 

[bucs90]

And about half of cops dont know the law very well either. It will sure make them think twice about executing a no knock warrant in the dark based on testimony of a very dodgy informant.

Source? Cops all go through police academies, which have fairly intensive legals courses. Sure, they dont know all the stupid petty city ordinances. Almost no one could (meaning there are way too many of those fucking laws). But the basic criminal laws, ESPECIALLY the 4th amendment? 99% of cops know those very well.


Second.....no knock warrants aren't legal, UNLESS they have been authorized by a judge. That judge must see all facts, and determine that there is reasonable belief that the knock would present an immediate danger to the officers (like the suspect is known to own an AK or something). All other warrants require a knock and announce. Problem is.....most petty criminals like to pretend they aren't home, or have ipod buds in, or are asleep, or their music is too loud, or for whatever reason dont answer the door.

 

[The Rabbi]

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

If they think a mistake was made with the warrant they shouldn't execute it. Duh.

They dont know a mistake is made until AFTER it's been served. Duh. Those are thankfully quite uncommon, but do happen. For example, especially on drug warrants. A snitch says "Joe Blow" lives at the white house on Main Street, 5th one on the right. And drives the cops there and points to it. Unfortunately, Joe Blow was drunk and high when he was at the house party, and the correct house is actually the white house, on Main, 5th one on the RIGHT.

Warrant was issued. Cops have all reason to believe it is right. Wrong house. They find out once inside, and it's a soccer mom and 55 year old husband. Damn. Nobody is hurt thank goodness. PD should pay for the families busted door and kiss some major ass to apologize, then take away Joe Blow's plea deal.

But you still dont want bullets flying. We aren't Mexico. If the cops show up, there is a 99.999999% chance they are there in good faith, and if you cooperate, and they are wrong, you'll come out fine, especially if it is just the wrong house. If you are committing a crime, but they didn't do the warrant right, you'll likely get off at court. Bullets are never the answer.

Until now, obviously, since these politicians decided to give residents the right to make that choice.

Soccer mom and 55yr old husband at home peacefully watching TV ad group of armed men break down their door.
Scenario 1) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop, goes to jail.
Scenario 2) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop and goes free.

I know which outcome I want.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Hard to believe we need laws to justify something that should be a natural right. Anyone breaks into your home - you have the right to shoot.

Refreshing News: Indiana passes law that will allow citizens to shoot police officers who illegally enter their homes

June 12, 2012

Indiana passes law that will allow citizens to shoot police officers who illegally enter their homes
Police officers in Indiana are upset over a new law allowing residents to use deadly force against public servants, including law enforcement officers, who unlawfully enter their homes. It was signed by Republican Governor Mitch Daniels in March.

The first of its kind in the United States, the law was adopted after the state Supreme Court went too far in one of its rulings last year, according to supporters. The case in question involved a man who assaulted an officer during a domestic violence call. The court ruled that there was “no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers.”

The National Rifle Association lobbied for the new law, arguing that the court decision had legalized police to commit unjustified entries.

I'd 100% support such a law in my city.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Wow. This is awful. All the OWS morons who think EVERYTHING a cop does is illegal will think shooting any cop when they come to their home is ok. They'll think every drug search warrant is "illegal" and think they can shoot the cops.

If I were an Indiana cop, my response time would be VERY extended, if I showed up at all. Fuck it, let the people fend for themselves.

Yeah I'm sure Indiana is full of OWSers, right.

 

[bucs90]

And a lot of cops are going to be afraid to enforce the law. Why should they trust that a mistake wasn't made along the way with the warrant? Why should they trust that the perp is rational.

A very bad law, imo.

If they think a mistake was made with the warrant they shouldn't execute it. Duh.

If I were a cop in Indiana, then, I would think a mistake was made with any warrant given to me.

Same here. I wouldn't do it. Fuck that. Even if it is the right house, and the suspect is inside, a mistake on the warrant could make the warrant invalid (even if its the right house and the right criminal), and if the shithead shoots a cop, he COULD be found innocent since it was technically an invalid warrant. Explain that to the wife and kids without a father.

Oh, and simple mistakes, such as house numbers reading "5918" instead of "5916" can invalidate a search warrants. They are usually 2-3 pages long, and just ONE typo can invalidate it.

"Ma'am, your husband is dead, and his killer is free, because on page 3 of this search warrant it is typed that the shutters on the windows of the house are red, when in fact, they painted them maroon and the warrant was invalid, thus, making it technically an unlawful entry. But dont worry, we went back and fixed the type, and found the stolen property. The bad guy will be charged with possessing stolen ipods!".

Anyone who thinks that is exaggerated hasn't done many search warrants in their day.

 

[Plasmaball]

Wow. This is awful. All the OWS morons who think EVERYTHING a cop does is illegal will think shooting any cop when they come to their home is ok. They'll think every drug search warrant is "illegal" and think they can shoot the cops.

If I were an Indiana cop, my response time would be VERY extended, if I showed up at all. Fuck it, let the people fend for themselves.

Uh the nra lobbied for this you dumb fuck.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

If they think a mistake was made with the warrant they shouldn't execute it. Duh.

If I were a cop in Indiana, then, I would think a mistake was made with any warrant given to me.

Same here. I wouldn't do it. Fuck that. Even if it is the right house, and the suspect is inside, a mistake on the warrant could make the warrant invalid (even if its the right house and the right criminal), and if the shithead shoots a cop, he COULD be found innocent since it was technically an invalid warrant. Explain that to the wife and kids without a father.

Oh, and simple mistakes, such as house numbers reading "5918" instead of "5916" can invalidate a search warrants. They are usually 2-3 pages long, and just ONE typo can invalidate it.

"Ma'am, your husband is dead, and his killer is free, because on page 3 of this search warrant it is typed that the shutters on the windows of the house are red, when in fact, they painted them maroon and the warrant was invalid, thus, making it technically an unlawful entry. But dont worry, we went back and fixed the type, and found the stolen property. The bad guy will be charged with possessing stolen ipods!".

Anyone who thinks that is exaggerated hasn't done many search warrants in their day.

By the same logic we shouldn't be allowed to shoot anyone for illegally entering our home, because they might, in good faith, believe they have a legal right to do so.

Suppose your neighbor's house is forceclosed on and the bank rep. comes to inspect the property but gets the address wrong and enters your house instead? You in good faith believe he is there illegally - he in good faith believes he is there legally - should it be legal for you to kill him?

 

[bucs90]

If they think a mistake was made with the warrant they shouldn't execute it. Duh.

They dont know a mistake is made until AFTER it's been served. Duh. Those are thankfully quite uncommon, but do happen. For example, especially on drug warrants. A snitch says "Joe Blow" lives at the white house on Main Street, 5th one on the right. And drives the cops there and points to it. Unfortunately, Joe Blow was drunk and high when he was at the house party, and the correct house is actually the white house, on Main, 5th one on the RIGHT.

Warrant was issued. Cops have all reason to believe it is right. Wrong house. They find out once inside, and it's a soccer mom and 55 year old husband. Damn. Nobody is hurt thank goodness. PD should pay for the families busted door and kiss some major ass to apologize, then take away Joe Blow's plea deal.

But you still dont want bullets flying. We aren't Mexico. If the cops show up, there is a 99.999999% chance they are there in good faith, and if you cooperate, and they are wrong, you'll come out fine, especially if it is just the wrong house. If you are committing a crime, but they didn't do the warrant right, you'll likely get off at court. Bullets are never the answer.

Until now, obviously, since these politicians decided to give residents the right to make that choice.

Soccer mom and 55yr old husband at home peacefully watching TV ad group of armed men break down their door.
Scenario 1) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop, goes to jail.
Scenario 2) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop and goes free.

I know which outcome I want.

You ever been on a tactical entry?

THAT scenario is exactly why they:

1) Knock and announce.

If no answer, they:

1) Breach door (kick or ram)
2) Pause....YELL "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT, POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" into the open door.
3) First two go in, with big ass patches on their vests that say "POLICE", and big bullet proof shields that say POLICE on the front.
4) As this happens, they continue to yell "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT, POLICE SEARCH WARRANT".

Now, if that dad can't read, or doesn't hear the 12 mean screaming police into his open front door, or hear them screaming "POLICE DEPARTMENT, SEARCH WARRANT" as they move into the open door, well, can't argue with that. Although I never once experienced someone who didn't know it was the cops coming in.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

They dont know a mistake is made until AFTER it's been served. Duh. Those are thankfully quite uncommon, but do happen. For example, especially on drug warrants. A snitch says "Joe Blow" lives at the white house on Main Street, 5th one on the right. And drives the cops there and points to it. Unfortunately, Joe Blow was drunk and high when he was at the house party, and the correct house is actually the white house, on Main, 5th one on the RIGHT.

Warrant was issued. Cops have all reason to believe it is right. Wrong house. They find out once inside, and it's a soccer mom and 55 year old husband. Damn. Nobody is hurt thank goodness. PD should pay for the families busted door and kiss some major ass to apologize, then take away Joe Blow's plea deal.

But you still dont want bullets flying. We aren't Mexico. If the cops show up, there is a 99.999999% chance they are there in good faith, and if you cooperate, and they are wrong, you'll come out fine, especially if it is just the wrong house. If you are committing a crime, but they didn't do the warrant right, you'll likely get off at court. Bullets are never the answer.

Until now, obviously, since these politicians decided to give residents the right to make that choice.

Soccer mom and 55yr old husband at home peacefully watching TV ad group of armed men break down their door.
Scenario 1) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop, goes to jail.
Scenario 2) Husband grabs up his shotgun and opens fire, kills one cop and goes free.

I know which outcome I want.

You ever been on a tactical entry?

THAT scenario is exactly why they:

1) Knock and announce.

If no answer, they:

1) Breach door (kick or ram)
2) Pause....YELL "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT, POLICE SEARCH WARRANT" into the open door.
3) First two go in, with big ass patches on their vests that say "POLICE", and big bullet proof shields that say POLICE on the front.
4) As this happens, they continue to yell "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT, POLICE SEARCH WARRANT".

Now, if that dad can't read, or doesn't hear the 12 mean screaming police into his open front door, or hear them screaming "POLICE DEPARTMENT, SEARCH WARRANT" as they move into the open door, well, can't argue with that. Although I never once experienced someone who didn't know it was the cops coming in.

And BTW - a search at a wrong address usually IS a legal search as long as the cops acted in good faith. If they have a warrant for next door, but in good faith serve it on your house thinking its for your place, and find a body in your house - that's admissible evidence.


it seems like this law is meant to protect citizens from abusive officers who use the color of law to protect themselves during acts they know are illegal.

 

[Plasmaball]

Its interesting how people who cry " follow the constitution" are whining because they want to have the right to break the 4th amendment.

 

[bucs90]

"Good faith" doesn't always cover bad warrants. That falls under the "should've known" or "inevitable discovery" parts of the interpretation of the 4th amendment.

If your scenario was true, and the cops couldn't find enough evidence to get a warrant for your house, what stops them from finding something petty to get into your neighbors house for, get THAT warrant, then "accidentally" go into your house by mistake (get what they really wanted) and say "OOPS!!, but good faith!".

Thats why good faith isn't always an excuse.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

"Good faith" doesn't always cover bad warrants. That falls under the "should've known" or "inevitable discovery" parts of the interpretation of the 4th amendment.

If your scenario was true, and the cops couldn't find enough evidence to get a warrant for your house, what stops them from finding something petty to get into your neighbors house for, get THAT warrant, then "accidentally" go into your house by mistake (get what they really wanted) and say "OOPS!!, but good faith!".

Thats why good faith isn't always an excuse.

Well if you should have known that you should have known, what's your point?

 

[bucs90]

Its interesting how people who cry " follow the constitution" are whining because they want to have the right to break the 4th amendment.

It isn't about a "right" to break the amendment. Its about not getting cops killed when they do it, almost always by accident or ignorance....and yes, occassionally in corruption. Those misdeeds are often found out in court and corrected.

I'm not too egotistical to admit the 4th amendment gets violated daily by cops, mostly due to laziness or ignorance for very petty stuff like searching cars on traffic stops or a persons pockets. I'd say about 5% of searches violate it. Almost every one of those are the street level petty ones involving a pat down or car search. Wrong? Yes. Should we shoot cops for those?

 

[bucs90]

"Good faith" doesn't always cover bad warrants. That falls under the "should've known" or "inevitable discovery" parts of the interpretation of the 4th amendment.

If your scenario was true, and the cops couldn't find enough evidence to get a warrant for your house, what stops them from finding something petty to get into your neighbors house for, get THAT warrant, then "accidentally" go into your house by mistake (get what they really wanted) and say "OOPS!!, but good faith!".

Thats why good faith isn't always an excuse.

Well if you should have known that you should have known, what's your point?

That justice for a dead cop could be left to interpretation of a type, the mindset of the resident, and deciding if a typo was enough to cause "shoulda known" or not. Not to mention the likely dead suspect who shoots at the cops when they return fire.

This does NOTHING but encourage more gunfights between cops and people. NEVER a good idea, under any circumstance. I'm all for firing and prosecuting a corrupt cop, because those few tarnish the uniform I proudly wore. But encouraging more gunfire from either side is horrible.

(**BTW, it's also why I support military-standard fitness requirements for cops. "Fatigue" is actually an acceptable reason for a cop to use their gun if they are in a fight, and are getting so fatigued they feel they could pass out, and need to use their gun. I find that atrocious and pathetic. LOSING the fight is one thing, but "too tired"??? Awful. But, labor laws and unions have prevented that fitness requirement.)

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

"Good faith" doesn't always cover bad warrants. That falls under the "should've known" or "inevitable discovery" parts of the interpretation of the 4th amendment.

If your scenario was true, and the cops couldn't find enough evidence to get a warrant for your house, what stops them from finding something petty to get into your neighbors house for, get THAT warrant, then "accidentally" go into your house by mistake (get what they really wanted) and say "OOPS!!, but good faith!".

Thats why good faith isn't always an excuse.

Well if you should have known that you should have known, what's your point?

That justice for a dead cop could be left to interpretation of a type, the mindset of the resident, and deciding if a typo was enough to cause "shoulda known" or not. Not to mention the likely dead suspect who shoots at the cops when they return fire.

If the person whose home is being entered is a "suspect" then the search is legal. Otherwise they are the victim of an illegal search and its funny you would call them a "suspect" just because the cops entered their house in error (good faith or not).

This does NOTHING but encourage more gunfights between cops and people.

Really? Link?

NEVER a good idea, under any circumstance. I'm all for firing and prosecuting a corrupt cop, because those few tarnish the uniform I proudly wore. But encouraging more gunfire from either side is horrible.

(**BTW, it's also why I support military-standard fitness requirements for cops. "Fatigue" is actually an acceptable reason for a cop to use their gun if they are in a fight, and are getting so fatigued they feel they could pass out, and need to use their gun. I find that atrocious and pathetic. LOSING the fight is one thing, but "too tired"??? Awful. But, labor laws and unions have prevented that fitness requirement.)

You seem to be suggesting that if a cop, under color of law, but completely illegally, enters my house to rape my wife, I have no right to kill him - because we've got to protect cops who illegally enter by accident.


Like I said - ORDINARY CIVILIANS - also face the same risk of being shot dead when they in good faith believe they are on a property legally. In 1992, Japanese foreign exchange student Yoshihiro Hattori was shot dead when him and his host brother went to the wrong house for a Halloween party. The homeowner made a BIG mistake and an innocent person died as a result. Should we make it illegal for someone to shoot intruders because they might make a mistake like this?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wow. This is awful. All the OWS morons who think EVERYTHING a cop does is illegal will think shooting any cop when they come to their home is ok. They'll think every drug search warrant is "illegal" and think they can shoot the cops.

If I were an Indiana cop, my response time would be VERY extended, if I showed up at all. Fuck it, let the people fend for themselves.

Yes, it is much better to allow cops who are drunk to break into a house and shoot everyone than to give people inside the house the right to defend themselves.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Wow. This is awful. All the OWS morons who think EVERYTHING a cop does is illegal will think shooting any cop when they come to their home is ok. They'll think every drug search warrant is "illegal" and think they can shoot the cops.

If I were an Indiana cop, my response time would be VERY extended, if I showed up at all. Fuck it, let the people fend for themselves.

Yes, it is much better to allow cops who are drunk to break into a house and shoot everyone than to give people inside the house the right to defend themselves.

He seems to think that should be allowed because of the case where a cop in good faith enters the wrong home and is shot dead by the home owner.


Fact of the matter is - if I've got a gun - and I'm afraid for my life or the life of my family - I'm going to use it and worry about the legal consequences later. So bucs claim that this law will increase the rate of homicides of cops is just wrong.