In Britain, man executed, with gun in front of mums with children...

[Vagabond63]

Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.

... That doesn't happen with law abiding citizens here. Nobody that is law abiding is shooting anyone in the pub...

Yeah, right, whatever. Kansas man admits to shooting Indian tech workers in bar - CNN

 

[Vagabond63]

Then why is it so wrong for non-criminals to have firearms with which to defend themselves?

Because a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.

So it makes about as much since as owning your own rabid pit bull because your neighbor has a rabid pit bull guarding his crack house.

the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.

I bet Amy Pittman thought exactly like you once upon a time. Added agony: Justice is haphazard after kids’ gun deaths

"Children under age 12 die from gun accidents in the United States about once a week, on average. Almost every death begins with the same basic circumstances: an unsecured and loaded gun, a guardian’s lapse in attention."

Every accidental death of a child is caused by a guardian's lapse in attention

Kids get poisoned because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids drown in pools and bathtubs because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids fall down stairs and out of windows because of a guardian's lapse in attention

etc etc etc etc ad infinitum

Does a responsible parent really need to worry about guns lying around? That would be one less "lapse of attention" to worry about, at least.

 

[2aguy]

Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.

... That doesn't happen with law abiding citizens here. Nobody that is law abiding is shooting anyone in the pub...

Yeah, right, whatever. Kansas man admits to shooting Indian tech workers in bar - CNN

Yes.....one individual broke the law......

And here is another example....Virginia....crime in bars went down, not up, as they allowed people to carry guns in bars.....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

--------------------------

At The Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders. And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.

 

[Vagabond63]

And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....

Meh, if prisons got us to lower crime, we'd have the lowest crime rates, not the highest.

We lock up more people than any country in the world, but you are still out there clinging to your guns living in mortal fear some darkie might show up at your door.

we lock up the wrong people, Idiot

A fine comment on the sad state of Republican America today.

I am not, never have been and never will be a member of the republican party

when you are incapable of seeing the world in more than 2 dimensions you miss out on a lot

Never said you were; my comment reflected the fact that your country has a Republican President, Senate and Congress; "Republican America" seemed a reasonable way of putting it.

 

[Vagabond63]

And you have solutions?

Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings

Not really... I just recognize that Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people... even if they think they are doing well.

But to the point, yes, there are solutions.. invest in education, create job programs and opportunties in poor areas, and the big one.

Get rid of the fucking guns...

...how many zeroes to the left of the decimal point does your net worth figure have?

Surely if you know what's best for everyone you must be extremely successful right?

six, last time I looked, do I qualify?

No you're a Brit nothing you say matters here

So I'm not allowed to post in the Europe forum? So much for free speech.

 

[2aguy]

Then why is it so wrong for non-criminals to have firearms with which to defend themselves?

Because a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.

So it makes about as much since as owning your own rabid pit bull because your neighbor has a rabid pit bull guarding his crack house.

the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.

I bet Amy Pittman thought exactly like you once upon a time. Added agony: Justice is haphazard after kids’ gun deaths

"Children under age 12 die from gun accidents in the United States about once a week, on average. Almost every death begins with the same basic circumstances: an unsecured and loaded gun, a guardian’s lapse in attention."

Every accidental death of a child is caused by a guardian's lapse in attention

Kids get poisoned because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids drown in pools and bathtubs because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids fall down stairs and out of windows because of a guardian's lapse in attention

etc etc etc etc ad infinitum

Does a responsible parent really need to worry about guns lying around? That would be one less "lapse of attention" to worry about, at least.

If a responsible parent wants to reduce the risk of danger to their child, they would get rid of their car, not their gun...

Accidental child death due to guns...with the majority caused by guns in the homes of criminals who are prohibited from owning guns in the first place..

Accidental gun deaths for children vs. accidental car deaths for children...notice the difference in the number.....get rid of yoru car.......

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
2016:

2016: Kids ( <1 to age 14)
Total guns: ......74
Total Cars: 1,261

 

[Skull Pilot]

Then why is it so wrong for non-criminals to have firearms with which to defend themselves?

Because a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.

So it makes about as much since as owning your own rabid pit bull because your neighbor has a rabid pit bull guarding his crack house.

the likelihood of my guns killing anyone in my family is ZERO tell me what 43 times ZERO is.

I bet Amy Pittman thought exactly like you once upon a time. Added agony: Justice is haphazard after kids’ gun deaths

"Children under age 12 die from gun accidents in the United States about once a week, on average. Almost every death begins with the same basic circumstances: an unsecured and loaded gun, a guardian’s lapse in attention."

Every accidental death of a child is caused by a guardian's lapse in attention

Kids get poisoned because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids drown in pools and bathtubs because of a guardian's lapse in attention
Kids fall down stairs and out of windows because of a guardian's lapse in attention

etc etc etc etc ad infinitum

Does a responsible parent really need to worry about guns lying around? That would be one less "lapse of attention" to worry about, at least.

No more or less than any "reasonable" parent who leaves the gate to a pool open, or the medicine cabinet unlocked

The point that sailed right over your head is that accidents other than those with firearms kill far more children but none of you people seem to care about those dead kids

It's the same mindset that makes you people think that getting murdered with a gun is somehow worse than getting murdered in any of a thousand other ways that don't involve a gun

 

[Skull Pilot]

And you have solutions?

Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings

Not really... I just recognize that Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people... even if they think they are doing well.

But to the point, yes, there are solutions.. invest in education, create job programs and opportunties in poor areas, and the big one.

Get rid of the fucking guns...

...how many zeroes to the left of the decimal point does your net worth figure have?

Surely if you know what's best for everyone you must be extremely successful right?

six, last time I looked, do I qualify?

No you're a Brit nothing you say matters here

So I'm not allowed to post in the Europe forum? So much for free speech.

You don't have free speech in the UK remember?

And I never said you couldn't post I just said nothing you say matters to anyone in the US

And FYI I have no obligation to allow anyone the freedom of speech as the First Amendment only pertains to the government passing laws that prohibit free speech and the free exercise of religion.

If you're going to preach to US citizens about their rights you should at least understand them first

 

[pismoe]

i think that Vaga will disappear from the conversation pretty soon .[chuckle]

 

[2aguy]

Moron...it is the CDC research..... and counting dead thugs doesn't collect all the data...are you this stupid, or just pretending to be this stupid......most criminals, as you have been told over and over again, run away instead of getting shot......or they surrender, rather than being shot, or when shot, don't die....but still get arrested.....

Again, given that we have 2 million people in prison, you'd have us believe that we have 1.1 million being scared off with a gun and being arrested? Really?

Come on, it doesn't pass the laugh test.

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

Let's look at that from GunPolicy.org

The UK- 106 gun suicides out of 4800 total suicides. (7.60/100K)

The US - 22,938 gun suicides out of 44876 suicides (13.9/100K)

Yes, having guns makes suicides worse.

But let's look at other peer countries.

Canada - 544 Gun suicides out of 3924 suicies (11.44/100K). Canada has looser gun rules than the UK, but tighter than the US>

Germany - Has probably the loosest gun laws in the G7 other than the US.

but their suicide rate is still lower than ours (12.60) with 719 gun suicides out of 10,000.

The country that throws everything off, of course, is Japan. But Japan is a country where suicide is not only culturally acceptable but even a long part of their traditions. (It is better to die than bring shame upon your family.)

Again, 23,000 gun suicides a year, too high a price to pay for your fetish.

And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....

Are you seriously saying Democrats deliberately change the law to allow murderers/violent offenders to go free? How do they do that?

They fight increases in sentences and fight to reduce sentences for violent criminals, on top of that, democrat prosecutors and judges allow known, violent, repeat gun offenders to get bail, and to get light sentences even for repeat gun crime.

 

[2aguy]

And you have solutions?

Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings

Not really... I just recognize that Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people... even if they think they are doing well.

But to the point, yes, there are solutions.. invest in education, create job programs and opportunties in poor areas, and the big one.

Get rid of the fucking guns...

Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof...meanwhile, in the U.S......as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down...49%. Our gun crime rate...went down 75%.....our violent crime, unlike Britain, went down 72%....as more Americans own and carry guns. Funny how crime goes down when the victims can fight back effectively.

Unfortunately out right wing government decided to drastically cut Police numbers and resources, nothing at all to do with not having guns (which we still do as it happens, see my previous post). Violent crime trends have gone down since 1996.

They have gone down 72% here in the same time while gun crime in Britain went up 42% in London last year.....

 

[Vagabond63]

Moron...it is the CDC research..... and counting dead thugs doesn't collect all the data...are you this stupid, or just pretending to be this stupid......most criminals, as you have been told over and over again, run away instead of getting shot......or they surrender, rather than being shot, or when shot, don't die....but still get arrested.....

Again, given that we have 2 million people in prison, you'd have us believe that we have 1.1 million being scared off with a gun and being arrested? Really?

Come on, it doesn't pass the laugh test.

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

Let's look at that from GunPolicy.org

The UK- 106 gun suicides out of 4800 total suicides. (7.60/100K)

The US - 22,938 gun suicides out of 44876 suicides (13.9/100K)

Yes, having guns makes suicides worse.

But let's look at other peer countries.

Canada - 544 Gun suicides out of 3924 suicies (11.44/100K). Canada has looser gun rules than the UK, but tighter than the US>

Germany - Has probably the loosest gun laws in the G7 other than the US.

but their suicide rate is still lower than ours (12.60) with 719 gun suicides out of 10,000.

The country that throws everything off, of course, is Japan. But Japan is a country where suicide is not only culturally acceptable but even a long part of their traditions. (It is better to die than bring shame upon your family.)

Again, 23,000 gun suicides a year, too high a price to pay for your fetish.

And of those 2.2 million in prison, the democrats keep letting out the most violent offenders over and over again.....

Are you seriously saying Democrats deliberately change the law to allow murderers/violent offenders to go free? How do they do that?

They fight increases in sentences and fight to reduce sentences for violent criminals, on top of that, democrat prosecutors and judges allow known, violent, repeat gun offenders to get bail, and to get light sentences even for repeat gun crime.

Really? So the law in America changes depending on political leanings only? Remarkable. I assume you can provide concrete evidence to back up your assertions?

 

[Vagabond63]

And you have solutions?

Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings

Not really... I just recognize that Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people... even if they think they are doing well.

But to the point, yes, there are solutions.. invest in education, create job programs and opportunties in poor areas, and the big one.

Get rid of the fucking guns...

Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof...meanwhile, in the U.S......as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down...49%. Our gun crime rate...went down 75%.....our violent crime, unlike Britain, went down 72%....as more Americans own and carry guns. Funny how crime goes down when the victims can fight back effectively.

Unfortunately out right wing government decided to drastically cut Police numbers and resources, nothing at all to do with not having guns (which we still do as it happens, see my previous post). Violent crime trends have gone down since 1996.

They have gone down 72% here in the same time while gun crime in Britain went up 42% in London last year.....

Prove the direct corrolation between alleged increased gun ownership in America and the alleged decline in gun crime as opposed to any of the attendant social factors that come in to play; otherwise you are just making unsubstantiated assertions to promote your agenda.

The rise in gun crime in London has nothing to do with Londoners not owning guns, as I've stated before, there have been ideological austerity cuts to policing which have caused a spike in these crimes, coupled with an increase in the crack cocaine trade.

 

[Vagabond63]

i think that Vaga will disappear from the conversation pretty soon .[chuckle]

As I've said before, I have a life outside the internet.

 

[Vagabond63]

Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.

... That doesn't happen with law abiding citizens here. Nobody that is law abiding is shooting anyone in the pub...

Yeah, right, whatever. Kansas man admits to shooting Indian tech workers in bar - CNN

Yes.....one individual broke the law......

And here is another example....Virginia....crime in bars went down, not up, as they allowed people to carry guns in bars.....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

--------------------------

At The Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders. And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.

Well if we're going to trade examples, this could get monotonous and will hardly advance either argument. 10 people injured in bar shooting

Personally, when I go to my local pub, I don't want to worry about two people getting drunk, having an argument and pulling guns; rather not be caught in the crossfire, thanks.

 

[pismoe]

i think that Vaga will disappear from the conversation pretty soon .[chuckle]

As I've said before, I have a life outside the internet.

-------------------------------------------- and you don't have much to say on this thread when YOU are on the internet Vaga !! --------- But Good mornin Vaga , hows Tony Martin' doing and too bad that young Fusilier Lee Rigby or one of you 'brit subjects' didn't have a gun so as to be able to stop RIGBY'S beheading on a busy 'londonistan' street by 2 imported foreigners . [think it was in londonistan wasn't it Vaga]

 

[2aguy]

And you have solutions?

Oh yeah your default position is to blame everyone else for your failings

Not really... I just recognize that Capitalism is a shit sandwich for most people... even if they think they are doing well.

But to the point, yes, there are solutions.. invest in education, create job programs and opportunties in poor areas, and the big one.

Get rid of the fucking guns...

Britain did that, and their gun crime and violent crime against British citizens is going through the roof...meanwhile, in the U.S......as more Americans own and carry guns, our gun murder rate went down...49%. Our gun crime rate...went down 75%.....our violent crime, unlike Britain, went down 72%....as more Americans own and carry guns. Funny how crime goes down when the victims can fight back effectively.

Unfortunately out right wing government decided to drastically cut Police numbers and resources, nothing at all to do with not having guns (which we still do as it happens, see my previous post). Violent crime trends have gone down since 1996.

They have gone down 72% here in the same time while gun crime in Britain went up 42% in London last year.....

Prove the direct corrolation between alleged increased gun ownership in America and the alleged decline in gun crime as opposed to any of the attendant social factors that come in to play; otherwise you are just making unsubstantiated assertions to promote your agenda.

The rise in gun crime in London has nothing to do with Londoners not owning guns, as I've stated before, there have been ideological austerity cuts to policing which have caused a spike in these crimes, coupled with an increase in the crack cocaine trade.

I didn't say there was one...what I keep saying is that the premise of the entire anti gun argument is that more guns = more gun crime. The last 25 years of actual experience in the United States shows that isn't even remotely true or accurate....the entire argument for more gun control is false.

I also have a list of research papers that show that Armed Americans do help reduce the crime rate....

As to London? You fail to understand.....Britain banned and confiscated guns....and the criminals have more of them...and are using them more for crime....

I keep listing the actual crime problem both here in the States and in Britain.... single, teenage girls having children without fathers in the home to teach young males how to be peaceful men, the increase in 3rd world immigrants from violent countries who do not share Western values toward violence....and the attack on the police by left wingers, who cut their funding, their manpower and cripple their efforts with politically correct policies.....

I have listed those factors over and over.....

And yes....when good people are incapable of defending themselves, the criminals become more bold....that is why here, in the U.S. .....our gun murder rate is down 49%, our gun crime rate is down 75%, and our violent crime rate is down 72%.....as more Americans own and carry guns...

 

[pismoe]

Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.

... That doesn't happen with law abiding citizens here. Nobody that is law abiding is shooting anyone in the pub...

Yeah, right, whatever. Kansas man admits to shooting Indian tech workers in bar - CNN

Yes.....one individual broke the law......

And here is another example....Virginia....crime in bars went down, not up, as they allowed people to carry guns in bars.....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

--------------------------

At The Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders. And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.

Well if we're going to trade examples, this could get monotonous and will hardly advance either argument. 10 people injured in bar shooting

Personally, when I go to my local pub, I don't want to worry about two people getting drunk, having an argument and pulling guns; rather not be caught in the crossfire, thanks.

-------------------------------------------------- as i have said , the number of gun deaths in the USA are an ACCEPTABLE price to pay for Americans to have the RIGHT and ability to own guns and i pay no attention to them Vaga .

 

[2aguy]

Who says we've acquiesced? We just don't reach for a weapon, when someone looks at us funny in the pub.

... That doesn't happen with law abiding citizens here. Nobody that is law abiding is shooting anyone in the pub...

Yeah, right, whatever. Kansas man admits to shooting Indian tech workers in bar - CNN

Yes.....one individual broke the law......

And here is another example....Virginia....crime in bars went down, not up, as they allowed people to carry guns in bars.....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

--------------------------

At The Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders. And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.

Well if we're going to trade examples, this could get monotonous and will hardly advance either argument. 10 people injured in bar shooting

Personally, when I go to my local pub, I don't want to worry about two people getting drunk, having an argument and pulling guns; rather not be caught in the crossfire, thanks.

And I have this....

Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



When Virginia passed a law allowing concealed carry in bars and alcohol-serving restaurants beginning July 1 of last year, opponents of the change decried the dangers of mixing guns and alcohol, for fear violent crimes would escalate.

But one year later, the Richmond Times-Dispatch did a study to see if the gloomy prognostications came true.

According to state police records, not only did gun violence in bars and restaurants not increase under the new law, it decreased by 5.2 percent.

In fact, of the 145 reported crimes with guns that occurred in Virginia bars and restaurants in fiscal 2010-11 (compared to 153 incidents in the year before the new law took effect), only two of the aggravated assault cases were related to concealed-carry permit holders. In one incident, the crime took place at a restaurant that didn’t serve alcohol – thus unrelated to the new law – and in the other, the weapon was neither discharged nor withdrawn from its holster.

“The numbers basically just confirm what we’ve said would happen if the General Assembly changed the law,” Philip Van Cleave, president of the pro-gun Virginia Citizens Defense League, told the Times-Dispatch. “Keep in mind what the other side was saying – that this was going to be a blood bath, that restaurants will be dangerous and people will stop going. But there was nothing to base the fear-mongering on.”


Read more at Allowing guns into bars has ‘surprising’ result - WND



More.....actual research by Richmond Times-Dispatch

Gun crimes drop at Virginia bars and restaurants

The number of major crimes involving firearms at bars and restaurants statewide declined 5.2 percent from July 1, 2010, to June 30, 2011, compared with the fiscal year before the law went into effect, according to crime data compiled by Virginia State Police at the newspaper's request.

--------------------------

At The Times-Dispatch's request, state police pulled from their computerized database all major crimes at bars and restaurants reported by local law-enforcement agencies across Virginia for two successive fiscal years. The Times-Dispatch then contacted more than a dozen police departments in Virginia for more detailed information on all aggravated assaults, homicides and sexual assaults involving firearms at those businesses.
Reported robberies were not analyzed because they tend to involve premeditated crimes by perpetrators openly displaying guns, and many of the affected businesses are chain restaurants that don't serve alcohol.
Only two fatal shootings occurred during the last fiscal year — one outside a Petersburg nightclub and the other at a Radford restaurant — but neither involved concealed-gun permit holders. And only two of the 18 aggravated assaults reported could be linked definitively to concealed-carry holders.

 

[Natural Citizen]

That reminds me, I have to get some mums in the ground. It's hard to find the hearty mums that come back, though.