ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION - The Next Big National Debate

[Foxfyre]

My take is that the Democrats are hoping to revive the infighting of the conservatives regarding immigration. That worked in the last election against McCain and got the topic off the war situation, which was improving at the time. They are hoping for a repeat, I'm hoping it doesn't work.

And this, I think cannot be left out of the equation in a full and honest debate.

It is obvious, at least to me, that most responsible Americans, both Democrat and Republican, both left and right, understand that we cannot simply accept all the poor people of the world who want to come here without reducing America to something like the miserable places they came from.

But it is also obvious, at least to me, that the Democrat leadership in Washington WANT all those new sympathetic voters on their side and they want them as quickly as that can be accomplished. Whatever other consequences result from that is not and does not appear to be of much concern to them on this or any othe issue they support.

And it is also obvious, at least to me, that they will be pushing this or Cap and Trade right away to keep the focus off the hugely unpopular healthcare restructure they just passed.

I started a thread on Cap and Trade at the same time as this one. So far it has been mostly ignored. My guess is they'll do that before this because it is difficult to understand and doesn't generate the same emotional response as healthcare or illegal immigration.

But is is finally obvious, at least to me, that those three issue: healthcare, Illegal Immigration, and Cap and Trade, if not handled responsibly and with the interest of a strong America in mind, they will forever change the America we have known and loved into something quite different that none of us are going to like.

 

[Foxfyre]

End the war on drugs, and go after the employer. That is the only way anything will get done.

That wouldn't be fair because Obama said he supports what he calls a human-rights issue. So according to him going after employers for doing what he thinks is fair wouldn't be honest.

The solution is require citizenship documentation when applying for jobs. Anyone caught providing false documents is committing a felony by falsifying official documents. If the employer used due diligence to investigate the validity of those documents they shouldn't have to pay a fine.

Europe used Visas for decades. Why not bring that here. Obama and the Dems want to be like Europe. Start with that.

During the Carter Administration, they tried to use the employers to enforce the immigration laws. I headed a large social agency at the time with some 75-80 full time and part time employees. In order to hire anybody who would be on the payroll, we had to obtain three positive pieces of identification--a birth certificate, photo idea, and one other document verifying the reported address such as a utility bill.

It started out okay, but in a business like ours, when somebody in a key position quits, you sometimes have to replace them fast to avoid disruption in services the customers have already paid for. And we had already interviewed the folks and knew who they were. They answered the phone number they provided us. So we violated the law a little in letting the folks bring in the ID later. Should I have gone to jail or paid a big fine for not being willing to disappoint people or take a heavy financial hit for lack of having a piece of paper in my hand. Maybe. But it sure didn't seem practical at the time. The program finally fizzled and nobody even bothered after awhile because it was so often unenforceable.

A law is enforceable only if there is a high degree of voluntary compliance.

But while it was still working, a whole new cottage energy sprang up producing forged documents for folks to use when applying for work. It is unreasonable to ask an employer to verify that they have the right social security number or that the driver's license or birth certificate or utility bill provided isn't fake.

The law will have to allow for the employer making a good faith effort if the employer is going to be part of the equation. Those who knowingly and willingly hire illegals, yeah. They should be figuratively hung.

 

[Angelhair]

It's a HUGE problem! The answer is very simple: SECURE the borders!!! DON'T let them in! Once in the USA, the U.S. Constitutiion protects them and gives them rights. Too many problems are created by ILLEGAL entry. Keep them out period!

 

[Foxfyre]

It's a HUGE problem! The answer is very simple: SECURE the borders!!! DON'T let them in! Once in the USA, the U.S. Constitutiion protects them and gives them rights. Too many problems are created by ILLEGAL entry. Keep them out period!

Hi Angel. Unfortunately with a country as large as ours and with as many thousands of miles of borders and coastline as we have, we could give all 300 million of us a shotgun and put us on the perimeters and there would still be blind spots. Stepped up enforcement does help and has had an effect, but it won't solve the whole problem.

If there is a 20 foot wall, somebody has a 22 foot ladder. We've seen them in videos of illegals scaling the wall.

If you build the wall higher, there will still be those who tunnel under it.

Or they come in by plane in the dark of night. Or by boat on deserted coastlines.

Or legally with bonafide Visas and just don't bother to go home after those expire.

The reason we have a problem is:

a) We have a huge neon sign over America and it is flashing "Ya'll come and if you just lay low a little while, they'll let you stay. If you can have your baby here, you're safe from Day One."

b) They know that once they are in, if they are just a little bit careful the chances they will be caught are slim to none and meanwhile they and all their family get lots and lots of free stuff that Americans, by law, are required to give them.

c) There is no consequence for employers who knowingly and willingly hire illegals and even encourage them to come.

d) There is hostility and anger expressed at those who see the dangers of this situation and presume to enforce the law to stop as much as possible. Accusations of racism, lack of compassion, Gestapo tactics, etc. etc. will be thrown at any of us who support enforcement.

e) There seems little will in Washington to do anything other than give amnesty with promises yet again to close the border which they again won't do.

 

[Foxfyre]

In light of the recent controversial Arizona law dealing with illegal immigration, Newt Gingrich included the following in his newslatter that is e-mailed to subscribers. Sorry I don't have a link but there may be one on the Human Events site. Anyhow (mods) it isn't copyrighted in the e-mail version:

Before anyone criticizes the citizens of Arizona who are worried about their lives and their safety, they should focus on the abject failure of the federal government to control the border and enforce our immigration laws.

Consider the facts on the ground:
15% of Arizona's state prisoners are illegal immigrants;
The number of kidnappings in Phoenix, Ariz., has exploded as the Mexican drug cartels have brought their violence North of the border;
Two Phoenix police officers have been killed in recent years by illegal immigrants;
A cattle rancher near the Mexican border was recently killed by a drug smuggler;
Just last week a deputy sheriff was wounded in a gun battle with men suspected of being drug smugglers from Mexico.
In response to the dangers they perceived from Washington's failure, 64% of Arizonans overwhelmingly support their new immigration law. Nationally, 51% of Americans who have heard of the law support it, with 39% opposed.

This is despite the frequent distortions and flat-out lies about the facts of the bill being reiterated in the mainstream media (Byron York and Andy McCarthy have been especially good at setting the record straight.)

The Obama Administration will alienate the vast majority of Americans if it insists on attacking the Arizona law instead of solving the problems of an uncontrolled border and a failed immigration system.

The right answer for Washington is to meet its responsibilities: 1) Control the border; 2) Pass common sense immigration reform, including a guest worker program and intense enforcement aimed at illegal employers (without whom there would be no magnet to draw in people outside the law); and 3) Ensure that all Americans can live in safety in a law abiding country.

At that point the Arizona law would become moot and unneeded. Let's solve the problem, not the symptom.