Zone1 If You Want a Civil Discussion on Race...

[Lisa558]

Answer me this, bub:

BLM didn't spend ONE DIME on any black community, any black family, any black business burned to the ground, any black kids needing school help, any majority school funding to help black students, etc etc etc. Nope. They bought mansions. Yet, Black Lives Matter, eh?

BLM was a Marxist group with the focus to destroy this country. They took on a “black” moniker as a way to silence opponents by screaming racism at anyone who pointed out how dangerous they were.

Take, for example, one of their goals to “disrupt the nuclear family.” The biggest reason for high crime, and related killings, in the black community is the LACK of a strong, intact nuclear family!

 

[Lisa558]

So me where I called you a racist.

You said something-or-other was not the cause of my white racism.

 

[IM2]

The Kerner Commission was created to find out why racial unrest was happening during the 1960's. Instead of blaming blacks for being angry about how they were treated and inventing terms like victim mentality, the commission took a long hard look at American societal issues. The bottom line is that the Kerner Commission determined in 1968 what blacks already knew and what whites have consistently refused to hear. This quote from Nathaniel Jones, Assistant General Counsel for the Commission says it all, “One of the conclusions of the Kerner Report was that white racism was at work, was the cause of the upsets and the uprisings that we had. In fact, the report stated that white society created it, perpetuates it, and sustains it.”

In other words, “The root cause of the problems blacks face is white racism.”

This was determined 54 years ago and still today people want to argue with blacks when we say this.

As a result of their study, the Kerner Commission identified 12 `grievances in all the communities they visited: “1. Police practices. 2. Unemployment and underemployment. 3. Inadequate housing. 4. Inadequate education. 5. Poor recreation facilities and programs. 6. Ineffectiveness of the political structure and grievance mechanisms. 7. Disrespectful white attitudes. 8. Discriminatory administration of justice. 9. Inadequacy of federal programs. 10. Inadequacy of municipal services. 11. Discriminatory consumer and credit practices. 12. Inadequate welfare programs.”

Americans would be hard-pressed to say the grievances presented by the commission do not still exist. Martin Luther King called it over 50 years ago; “A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom.” The Kerner Commission report was perhaps the most definitive government study done on race in the history of this nation. We are now 54 years past the Kerner Commission findings. There has been little progress because at no level of government or society has America met even the first principle of the Kerner Commission. That is, “To mount programs on a scale equal to the dimension of the problems.”

 

[Hellbilly]

BLM was a Marxist group with the focus to destroy this country.

This country was destroyed in the 1400's

 

[IM2]

And is life better for blacks where they are the majority?

I know, black dominated countries have poverty and crime because ..

We are talking about America. If you want to discuss the effects of European colonization, start a thread.

 

[Hellbilly]

You said something-or-other was not the cause of my white racism.

What I said was blacks are not the cause. Whats happening is a effect of racism. Last summer I told you people things were about to change and you wouldn't like it. I was correct.

 

[Lisa558]

What I said was blacks are not the cause. Whats happening is a effect of racism. Last summer I told you people things were about to change and you wouldn't like it. I was correct.

What’s changing, other than hatred being driven for whites?

 

[Hellbilly]

What’s changing, other than hatred being driven for whites?

Nothing is changing and that is the problem.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

We are talking about America. If you want to discuss the effects of European colonization, start a thread.

If you as a race have no black run nation that anyone would call a success, why would your problems, as a race, be MY fault as a white man?

 

[Lisa558]

Nothing is changing and that is the problem.

You just said two posts up that you warned us last summer that things were about to change and that we wouldn’t like it. So tell me….what exactly were you saying was about to change?

 

[Mac-7]

First, yes, this is a highly-charged highly personal issue, and keeping strong emotions out of it is going to be essentially impossible. I don't expect either end of this conversation to be impartial or unbiased. Holy crap, we're human. And yes, my points are based on what I constantly see on this issue, and they're the reasons we're making so little progress, in my personal opinion.

So the key, in my mind anyway, is to change the structure of the conversation. All I see right now -- and let me repeat, all I see right now -- is each side flinging grievances and accusations at the other. That's it. Period. Each side just feeding into the other. The behaviors are so blatantly counter-productive that I truly don't know what the goal is. Is it to "beat" the other side? Or is it to actually improve race relations going forward? I honestly have no idea.

When I want to fix a problem, the first thing I want to know is what I'm doing wrong to contribute to the problem. Isn't that fair? So I have to be honest and listen to criticism and analysis that I may not like, not just attack when I hear it.

Here's an overview of my perception of where we are. I always appreciate YOUR civility, so I'm happy to continue this:

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/poll-do-you-agree-with-all-three-of-these-statements.828478/#post-24825102

Mac1958’s perception of the problem is far from unbiased

He is mildly critical of the left for trying too hard to right the wrongs of history

While at the same time eviscerating white conservatives for not accepting more of the guilt being heaped on them by liberals

This classic mac1958 and his faux non partisanship


1. On one hand you have many white liberals, consumed with White Guilt, who have COMPLETELY over-compensated for what was done to blacks by weaponizing PC and Identity Politics, and shoving them down the throats of the country for a couple of generations now. They absolutely refuse to recognize the building anger and resentment that will happen when you do that to people. And look: As a result, we get Trump.

2. On the other hand, you have many white conservatives -- more than the Right would ever admit -- who are the standard, ignorant, knuckle-dragging, paranoid losers who still practice racism. Worse than those people are those who enable them by minimizing their number and importance, ignoring their behaviors, mocking anyone who points them out, absolutely refusing to hold them accountable for what they are.

 

[Flash]

BLM was a Marxist group with the focus to destroy this country. They took on a “black” moniker as a way to silence opponents by screaming racism at anyone who pointed out how dangerous they were.

Take, for example, one of their goals to “disrupt the nuclear family.” The biggest reason for high crime, and related killings, in the black community is the LACK of a strong, intact nuclear family!

Also, the leaders of the BLM movement got filthy rich.

Big bucks to be made scamming White Guilt.

I really feel disdain for the stupid pathetic Whites that fall for that crap.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Well, I'm not trying to change your mind.

Please answer my question: What is your ultimate goal here? If you one day feel that success has been achieved, what would that look like?

I don't know about IM2 but if the United States government formally acknowledged the wrongs that they committed and allowed to be committed against black people as well as the fact that merely changing the laws came nowhere close to correcting or rectifying the harm done and that the racist attitudes, hatred and acts continue to this day, that would be a major accomplishment.

An apology for all of the above would be the next step and go a long way towards making amends in my opinion.

Lastly, reparations would show that they actually mean what they say as far as being sorry for the wrongs they committed and allowed. I wouldn't need anything in my hand, just knowing that they were going to make them would be an extraordinary thing as far as I am concerned. And it's already begun happening in places like California and the mid-west (can't remember which state right off the top of my head).

But seriously, the goal is to try to minimize and mitigate the harm caused by racist individuals in our society and to dismantle the remaining scaffold of institutional racism, both the visible and invisible structures.

 

[Hellbilly]

You just said two posts up that you warned us last summer that things were about to change and that we wouldn’t like it. So tell me….what exactly were you saying was about to change?

What black people are willing to put up with. My post was about what white people are doing about their racism. They are still treating black people like garbage. The truth of it is, all this is the fault of white people. I doubt black people will put up with it much longer.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I've never, ever said that "both sides are equally wrong", ever, never. There is absolutely no way to quantify that. My feeling is that, when it's coming out of both ends like water through a fire hose, I really don't CARE which end is worse.

The behaviors regularly demonstrated by both ends of our political spectrum include things like denial, distortion, hyperbole, Straw Man arguments, intellectual myopia and outright lies. I won't be convinced that that's not the case.

I was in "the media" for about 18 years in a former life. I know how difficult it can be to remain as objective as possible, but I also know how critical it is to maintain a full and accurate understanding of both (or all) sides of any given issue.

If you are convinced that only one side is at fault here, there is nothing I can do about that. My point is that my perspective and observations are every bit as clear and obvious to me as yours are to you. And I see two ends of an important issue making it easy on the other.

I'll ask you too: What is your ultimate goal here? If you one day feel that success has been achieved, what would that look like?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

The behaviors regularly demonstrated by both ends of our political spectrum include things like denial, distortion, hyperbole, Straw Man arguments, intellectual myopia and outright lies. I won't be convinced that that's not the case.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm limiting my comments to the people on this message board while you want to include the behaviors of everyone on the political spectrum? And by classifying things the way you have above you are pre-assuming that "we" will be engaging in these types of behaviors when that is just not true. That's what we're objecting to.

Everything that we post here is supported by verifiable facts. The people who deny these facts are just like DJT when faced with things that don't agree or support their beliefs or agenda, they then just outright deny them, denigrate the messenger and project their own negative characteristics on us by calling us things like "black racists" and an assortment of other untrue attributes.

 

[hadit]

Mac when one side is completely wrong both sides have nothing to do with the problem.

When it comes to race, study after study shows that racism causes a bunch of problems and some of them pertain to the behavior of those who face the racism. In your conversation about race, you would have blacks or people of color blaming themselves for problems caused by the racist behavior they face.

The reason we can't discuss things is that too many people want to blame boths sides. Both sides are not the problem and as long as people want to adopt the everybody is wrong approach we won't have civil discussions about anything.

Could the Hatfields and the McCoys agree that the fault lay completely on one family? Whenever you approach a discussion over a disagreement with the premise that the other guy is completely in the wrong and you are completely blameless, you will NOT have a civil discussion. Try that with your wife and let us know how it goes.

 

[Mac-7]

We may be hopeless.

The left is burning down businesses in their own neighborhood after looting them

And usually after an incident caused by the Black Brain Disease - aka resisting arrest

White conservatives on this forum refuse to accept blame for that so he calls us knuckle draggers

An emotion driven insult that mac1958 never uses on the other side - his side

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I'm getting what I always get: It's all the other side's fault.

And again, this is why we can't have a civil or constructive conversation on race.

No, your evaluation is not correct.

The problem is not each side blaming the other, the problem is that many people in society including our government refuse to accept and/or do something about the undisputed fact that white racism is the root cause of many of the ills faced by Black Americans. That is not up for debate because that's what our own government has determined as well as many other agencies who have investigated and conducted studies into the matter.

Now that this has been determined, what if anything are we (black people) and white people (not white racists) going to do about it. The "what are we going to do about it" is thee actual topic of discussion. Everything else that the same agitators on this board are claiming and posting is just noise to keep the real discussion from every happening.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Why do you insist that the side with less of a problem work on some fringe issues when the very CRUX of the problem - driving racism and divisiveness - is caused by your side?

What do you mean by "less of a problem" and "some fringe issues"