Zone1 If You Want a Civil Discussion on Race...

[Lisa558]

Well, I'm not trying to change your mind.

Please answer my question: What is your ultimate goal here? If you one day feel that success has been achieved, what would that look like?

I think the goal of all these anti-white black racists is to convince enough white people that whites are at fault for all of blacks’ problems - and fork over reparations.

When something doesn’t make sense otherwise, follow the money.

 

[Mac1958]

I think the goal of all these anti-white black racists is to convince enough white people that whites are at fault for all of blacks’ problems - and fork over reparations.

When something doesn’t make sense otherwise, follow the money.

Do you see any room for improvement needed from the Right on this issue? Is the Right guilty of anything the Left accuses it of being?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

First, yes, this is a highly-charged highly personal issue, and keeping strong emotions out of it is going to be essentially impossible. I don't expect either end of this conversation to be impartial or unbiased. Holy crap, we're human. And yes, my points are based on what I constantly see on this issue, and they're the reasons we're making so little progress, in my personal opinion.

So the key, in my mind anyway, is to change the structure of the conversation. All I see right now -- and let me repeat, all I see right now -- is each side flinging grievances and accusations at the other. That's it. Period. Each side just feeding into the other. The behaviors are so blatantly counter-productive that I truly don't know what the goal is. Is it to "beat" the other side? Or is it to actually improve race relations going forward? I honestly have no idea.

When I want to fix a problem, the first thing I want to know is what I'm doing wrong to contribute to the problem. Isn't that fair? So I have to be honest and listen to criticism and analysis that I may not like, not just attack when I hear it.

Here's an overview of my perception of where we are. I always appreciate YOUR civility, so I'm happy to continue this:

https://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/poll-do-you-agree-with-all-three-of-these-statements.828478/#post-24825102

So I'm having a couple of problems with your premises aside from them being non-specific and vague.
1. You're starting out with presumptions
Such as both sides are equally wrong and at fault and engage in the same wrong behaviors which is patently not true
2. You're making presumptions about me and my alleged biases
Whatever biases I may have, I am able to keep them out of my opinions and base my opinions only on the facts
presented or that I have knowledge of. This is a requirement of my training and I can remain neutral, or effectively argue
not just my own position but the opposing position just as well
3. You label people which indicates your own biases whether you see them or not
You use the terms conservatives, liberals, etc. Those are attributes but you treat them as the whole person. So you are
guilty of doing the very thing you are saying we are going to be guilty of when I don't use attributes in that manner. For
example, do you have any of your wonderful lists of quotes handy? Those list are the perfect example of what we're
trying to convey when we are discussing this topic because "res ipsa loquitur"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_ipsa_loquitur​

 

[Lisa558]

Do you see any room for improvement needed from the Right on this issue? Is the Right guilty of anything the Left accuses it of being?

Most of the damage is coming from the left, so let’s start there.

 

[Lisa558]

So I'm having a couple of problems with your premises aside from them being non-specific and vague.
1. You're starting out with presumptions
Such as both sides are equally wrong and at fault and engage in the same wrong behaviors which is patently not true
2. You're making presumptions about me and my alleged biases
Whatever biases I may have, I am able to keep them out of my opinions and base my opinions only on the facts
presented or that I have knowledge of. This is a requirement of my training and I can remain neutral, or effectively argue
not just my own position but the opposing position just as well
3. You label people which indicates your own biases whether you see them or not
You use the terms conservatives, liberals, etc. Those are attributes but you treat them as the whole person. So you are
guilty of doing the very thing you are saying we are going to be guilty of when I don't use attributes in that manner. For
example, do you have any of your wonderful lists of quotes handy? Those list are the perfect example of what we're
trying to convey when we are discussing this topic because "res ipsa loquitur"

Res ipsa loquitur - Wikipedia​

You’ve done everything you’ve accused the other poster of doing: making assumptions about their biases, labeling them (which reflects your own biases), and making presumptions.

Also, you’re not supposed to use red font.

 

[there4eyeM]

As we are all humans, together, we share, together, the same faults and foibles as well as the same redeeming traits. Denying that only maintains and encourages the failed divisions of the past. The superficiality of judging a person purely on skin tone is part of the extreme superficiality of our age. Few seek deep understanding of existence, of what it means to be human. Many display the belief that what one owns makes one better or worse. Materialism has never been worse than in our age. Basing judgment on superficial measures is only an extension of that shoddy approach.
Groups who often got a raw deal in the New World always included elements who played a part in the raw. Stigmatizing one group and pushing it into a corner is not going to elicit positive change. As everyone knows, people only truly change when they have a desire to.
Society has been unfailingly unfair to many of its members, yet not uniformly to all everywhere. It is ignorance, for example, to say "white" people don't like "black" people. A minority may, but the majority do not. That majority may not be doing as much about problems as we could hope. Education is the only solution. If that takes time, there is nothing we can do about it. That is how things work. One certainty is that instigation only re-enforces the negative.

 

[Hellbilly]

You’ve done everything you’ve accused the other poster of doing: making assumptions about their biases, labeling them (which reflects your own biases), and making presumptions.

Just like you.

 

[Mac1958]

So I'm having a couple of problems with your premises aside from them being non-specific and vague.
1. You're starting out with presumptions
Such as both sides are equally wrong and at fault and engage in the same wrong behaviors which is patently not true
2. You're making presumptions about me and my alleged biases
Whatever biases I may have, I am able to keep them out of my opinions and base my opinions only on the facts
presented or that I have knowledge of. This is a requirement of my training and I can remain neutral, or effectively argue
not just my own position but the opposing position just as well
3. You label people which indicates your own biases whether you see them or not
You use the terms conservatives, liberals, etc. Those are attributes but you treat them as the whole person. So you are
guilty of doing the very thing you are saying we are going to be guilty of when I don't use attributes in that manner. For
example, do you have any of your wonderful lists of quotes handy? Those list are the perfect example of what we're
trying to convey when we are discussing this topic because "res ipsa loquitur"

Res ipsa loquitur - Wikipedia​

I've never, ever said that "both sides are equally wrong", ever, never. There is absolutely no way to quantify that. My feeling is that, when it's coming out of both ends like water through a fire hose, I really don't CARE which end is worse.

The behaviors regularly demonstrated by both ends of our political spectrum include things like denial, distortion, hyperbole, Straw Man arguments, intellectual myopia and outright lies. I won't be convinced that that's not the case.

I was in "the media" for about 18 years in a former life. I know how difficult it can be to remain as objective as possible, but I also know how critical it is to maintain a full and accurate understanding of both (or all) sides of any given issue.

If you are convinced that only one side is at fault here, there is nothing I can do about that. My point is that my perspective and observations are every bit as clear and obvious to me as yours are to you. And I see two ends of an important issue making it easy on the other.

I'll ask you too: What is your ultimate goal here? If you one day feel that success has been achieved, what would that look like?

 

[Mac1958]

Most of the damage is coming from the left, so let’s start there.

Why? Don't you think it would be a smart idea to clean your own house first?

 

[IM2]

Well, that's a perfect example of the problem, as I see it.

Tell me: What is your ultimate goal? If everything went your way, what would the end result be?

And you are completely wrong. You don't seem to get that. What do you think blacks, hispanics, asians, members of the first nations and non racist whites have been doing throughout the history of this country? We have listened. We have worked on our failings.

For example, 60 years ago the majority of blacks had little education. Today according to a study I read 92 percent of all blacks have graduated high school and I believe 20 percent have graduated college. What happens? Black sounding names get turned down for interviews, blacks with college educations earn what white men with high school educations earn, blacks with no criminal record are less likely to be hired than a white ex con. So then according to you in order to have a civil discussion blacks must point out our weaknesses. You have the right to your opinion, but your opinion does not meet reality.

In this forum right wing whites have refused to listen and futhermore they think they can speak beet to what blacks live through than we do. It's time that stopped. And when that stops we can have civil discussions. I am not an accomodationist and I will not appease racists. The theory you present is full of holes and quite frankly it is malarkey.

Here is a quote from Frederick Douglass. Take heed.

“If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.”

 

[Mac1958]

I'm getting what I always get: It's all the other side's fault.

And again, this is why we can't have a civil or constructive conversation on race.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

There are no white supremacists on this forum. The OP led off with a erroneous attack, blaming whites for all problems that blacks have.

What do you call this shit?

These darn Democrats!

This is pipe dream shit meant to feed the n-I-g-g-e-r-s and the s-p-I-c-s because they're stupid enough to believe that shit.

Today blacks act like animals because they are BARELY evolved past the Ape and need a strong central figure (the white man) to keep them in place and acting like normal people.

Sick of their shit and we should not hide it anymore. When they call me a fucking racist, and I say you damn right I am!!! Fuck those fucking people!

Why do Browns ("people of color") feel compelled to steal, assault, rape, murder Whites, their obvious superior beings? Browns should be worshiping Whites instead of being jealous douchebag criminals.'

Blacks... prone to violence, think they're still in the jungle, low IQ blacks.

How can you look at the world and not see that ALL ADVANCEMENTS came from Europe and America? Yeah, we're the superior race on the earth. All others developed because of whites

Look, he is actually intelligent and an actual person of color! How often does that happen?

“We swear muthafuckers, you take our beaners from us and we’ll come for your guns one day” Filthy fucks!

MAGA! This is great news! Everything is falling into place so we can build the Wall and thwart this invasion of brown diseease ridden third worlders who are a threat to our sovereignty, culture and American traditions.

Being the elected representative of a bunch of dumbass ghetto Jungle Monkeys doesn't take intelligence. It take a ghetto dialect and a promise to get them more welfare.

Valerie Jarrett.... Is she that light skinned negro who looks like that ape in Planet of the Apes (negroes?)

I thought she was an ape...Next you'll be telling me Mooch isn't really a shaved wookie.

The asians made fun of obama.....the asians refer to negroes as 'monkey people' and not in jest....they are serious....and why shouldn't they be?

Pay the pavement ape or he will get very angry and burn his house down.

Yawn, Kambala wants every African American crack addict to have their own home while White, Red, and Yellow Americans some disabled vets rot on the street.

Nigga's acting like a Nigga...must be part of the Thugery... most blacks don't act like that!

Engage me and die, n'gr.

Folks, you couldn't today pay me enough to live anywhere near a large black population.

I believe the black race is inferior to both the white and yellow races....I can prove it by taking a look at the world map and income, innovation/scientific discoveries, and prison populations. Maybe you have some other mysterious way of defining the word but you never seem to say what it is.

Most intelligent people understand how stupid blacks are....average i.q. of 85.....being one you should know.

Come on people you blacks are better than this shit every fucking week....stand BEHIND your police, you do the crime you get locked up...you fuck with THE MAN, he has every right to beat the shit out of you, and your community standing behind you just shows what stupid, low life idiots you are!

Fuck off House Negro. Shine my boots bitch

Monkey's are more civilized than many blacks -

Quit insulting monkeys.

You're talking about balkanization. I'm all for it. I'm also for restoring the 1790 Naturalization Act, the very first legislation by the first Congress making only White people U.S. Citizens.

Hasn't it been proven, in the last few days, that blacks are incapable of living in the environment of civilization? Send them back to Africa.

Why do blacks behave the way they do?

Genetic deficiencies...proven the world over. Dark people need whitey to lead....PERIOD

..just like Africa is the shithole of the world, the black US communities mirror that

Cain was one black life that did matter

Video emerges of the carjacking that killed an Uber Eats driver this week. The girls were arrested and are ages monkey and chimp

You can take a negro out of the ghetto. But you can't take the ghetto out of the negro.

Ever wonder why blacks are so sensitive about being compared to monkeys? hehheh obviously the truth can be painful.

 

[Lisa558]

Why? Don't you think it would be a smart idea to clean your own house first?

Why do you insist that the side with less of a problem work on some fringe issues when the very CRUX of the problem - driving racism and divisiveness - is caused by your side?

 

[Mac1958]

Why do you insist that the side with less of a problem work on some fringe issues when the very CRUX of the problem - driving racism and divisiveness - is caused by your side?

Okay, got it.

 

[Lisa558]

I'm getting what I always get: It's all the other side's fault.

And again, this is why we can't have a civil or constructive conversation on race.

No, what you’re doing is putting it on THE OTHER SIDE to solve it, when it is your side driving the problem.

So you tell me. What could YOUR side do to stop the anti-white racism it is driving?

 

[Mac1958]

NewsVine_Mariyam

The second quote in that list -- a list I have compiled and provided to you upon request -- is not by me. Please remove it.

 

[Mac1958]

No, what you’re doing is putting it on THE OTHER SIDE to solve it, when it is your side driving the problem.

So you tell me. What could YOUR side do to stop the anti-white racism it is driving?

You're clearly not reading this thread.

 

[johngaltshrugged]

Far too many members in this forum watch Fox and other right wing media and accept the disinformation as fact. One such belief coming from that disinformation is that blacks don't care about black on black killing and only pay attention or raise a stink when we can claim racism. Now this opinion comes from a bunch of white people who have never put one toe in the black community.

Black Organizations and Organizations Serving Black Communities

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black community organizations in usa - Bing

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On July 28, 1967, President Lyndon Johnson established the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders. The more common name for this is The Kerner Commission. The Kerner Commission recommended solutions based on the following three principles: 1. “To mount programs on a scale equal to the dimension of the problems.” 2. “To aim these programs for high impact in the immediate future in order to close the gap between promise and performance.” 3. “To undertake new initiatives and experiments that can change the system of failure and frustration that now dominates the ghetto and weakens our society.”

President Johnson called for the research but never implemented the suggested actions. He wasted government money by increasing spending on the Vietnam war and claimed he did not have the funds to implement the types of programs proposed in the report. So that in and of itself destroys the claims made consistently by the propagandized members of this forum about Johnsons programs and however many trillions Rush Limbaugh to you guys that the government gave to blacks over the last however many years.

The thing here that too many of you choose to believe what other whites who have not come near a black neighborhood tell you while arguing wiyh those of us who grew up and who may live in black communities today.

In late 1994, I began to work with a friend in starting a community based black organization. I watched for 3 straight years as we got the most awards for our work in the community our organization consistently get rejected for funding. I worked a second job in order to help buy office supplies and equipment. In our 4th year, we were again turned down by the city for funds even as our track record showed the best results of any community agency.

It took us exposing a conflict of interest whereby city officials were sitting on boards of United Way funded organizations as well as the mayor of the city was Chair of the local United way to get a few thousand dollars for a server. We found that because of this relationship, UW agencies in that city were receiving 97 percent of all local and county tax dollars targeted for social services. How convenient for white city council members to vote yes for funds to go to the organizations where they were board members at city council meetings. No black or non white organization was getting social service money. And this city was and is not the only place this happens. Yet in forums like this we have to hear opinions from people who have never been in the octagon telling somebody how to fight.

So if you guys want civil discourse on race, then it's time whites here, specifically those calling themselves conservatives, to listen. You guys have demonstrated over the years I have been here that you do not have the foggiest idea of what goes on in the black community besides murder. So you do not have any solutions to offer. But if you actually listened you perhaps could come up with ideas.

The root cause of the problems we as blacks face is white racism. For you to understand how I can say that, you first must drop the silly notion that racism is only thoughts and slurs.

Sounds like the common corruption in Dem controlled city. Corrupt politicians are not the same as "systemic racism".
Blaming the rest of us for what your elected city leaders did is like me blaming you if a black man steals my car.
Why didn't you all recall those corrupt leaders?
Did you all elect black leaders to represent you?

 

[Mac1958]

We may be hopeless.

 

[IM2]

OK, here we have Lisa who decided she could tell blacks why we are in poverty and how we should live. Every single one of her assertions were racist stereotypes. When presented data showing the negative impact of white racism by blacks here, she doubled down. I do believe we as black know why things are as they are for blacks than a white person repeating racist stereotypes.