Id health care a "right"? Sounds nice, but no, it can't be.

Little-Acorn

Gold Member
Jun 20, 2006
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What Are Our "Rights"?

You hear an awful lot about our "rights" these days. And justly so-- our rights, in this country, are our most valuable possession, outside of life itself. And some people say that our basic rights, are even more important than life. When Patrick Henry defiantly told the British government during colonial times, "Give me liberty or give me death!", he was stating that he considered a life without liberty, to be worse than no life at all (death).

So, what are our rights?

The Declaration of Independence mentions a few, and implies that there are others. So does the Constitution-- in fact, it names many, and categorically states that those aren't the only rights people have.

The Declaration says that among our rights, are "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". It also says that these were given to us "by [our] Creator". Take that as you will, depending on whatever religious outlook you hold. But one of the implications is that, wherever our rights came from, they were NOT granted us by government, or by our fellow men at all. We had them long before government existed. And these various government documents simply say that government cannot take them away or interfere with them.

Here we refer, of course, only to normal law-abiding citizens. The Constitution contains the phrase "except by due course of law" in many places. If you rob someone, assault him, destroy his property, murder him etc., then you can legitimately be deprived of liberty (you go to jail), property (you get fined), or even life in some extreme cases (Death Penalty). Outside of such lawbreaking, your rights are held inviolate.

But today, our "rights" seem to be multiplying without end. This is not necessarily bad-- as we said, rights are extremely valuable. But, are we getting ahead of ourselves, granting to ourselves so many things under the name of "rights"?

"Old Rights"

Some are pretty indisputable, such as the ones mentioned in the Declaration. The ones mentioned in the Constitution, especially in the first ten Amendments (which was even called the "Bill of Rights" by its authors), are similarly vital... though they seem to be undergoing a methodical erosion. Freedom of religion, right to peaceably assemble, freedom of speech and of the press, the right to keep and bear arms, etc. all are very basic, and it is scary to think of trying to exist in a country in which any of these do not exist.

New "rights"

But lately we have heard about other "rights", such as the right to work, the right to decent medical treatment, the right to a decent standard of living. These all sound salutary-- what kind of society would we have, if working for a living were forbidden, decent health care were forbidden, etc.?

But there is a big gap between "forbidden" and "compulsory". The rights found in the country's founding documents, are compulsory, to the extent that we all have them whether we want them or not (who wouldn't want them?), and no one can take them away.

What about, say, the right to decent medical treatment? Those who favor this "right", point out that they don't necessarily mean the rare, exotic, super-expensive treatments; nor "elective" procedures such as cosmetic liposuction or a luxury suite in the hospital. They usually mean that, if you get sick or injured, you have the "right" to have a doctor look at you, make sure the problem isn't unusually dangerous, and administer the routine treatments needed to help you on the way back to good health. An absence of such routine treatment, could occasionally put your life in peril, obviously-- a simple broken bone could lead to infection if untreated, and possibly far more. But there are differences between the "Old Rights", as we've called the ones in the founding documents, and these "New 'Rights'".

Your "right to life" protects something that no man gave you-- you simply had it, from the day you were born. Nobody had to go to extraordinary effort to create it for you, outside of natural processes that move forward on their own without deliberate effort or guidance by humans, government, etc.

Same with the "right to liberty". You were your own man, as it were, the day you were born. Nobody had to go to special effort to create that status for you. In fact, they would have had to go to considerable effort to take those things away, by deliberately coming to you and killing you; or by building a jail and imprisoning you etc. If they leave you alone, you have life and liberty, and can pursue happiness. They have to work at it to deprive you of those things.

The Difference in the "New 'Rights'"

But this isn't the case with what we've called "New 'Rights'". In order for you to get the kind of routine medical treatment its advocates describe, somebody has to stop what he is doing and perform work for you-- the doctor who examines you, the clerk who sets up your appointment, the people who built the office or hospital where you get treatment.

If this routine medical treatment is to be called a "right" on par with our "Old Rights", doesn't that mean that you must be given it when needed? And doesn't it follow, then, that others must be compelled to do the normal things needed to treat you?

Uh-oh.

How does this compulsion upon those others (doctors, clerks etc.) fit in with THEIR rights? They "have" to treat you? What if their schedules are full-- do they have to bump another patient to make room for you? What if they were spending precious quality time with their families-- do they have to abandon their own kids, to fulfill your "right" to treatment that only they can give? Doesn't this fit the description of "involuntary servitude"?

This is an important difference between the rights envisioned by the country's founders, and the new "rights" advocated by more modern pundits. In order to secure your "old rights", people merely had to leave you alone... do nothing to bother you. in fact, they were required to. But these new so-called "rights", required that people go out of their way to actively contribute to you.

And that "requirement", in fact violates THEIR rights-- specifically, their right to liberty. They must be left free to live their lives as THEY chose-- free from compulsion to come and help you out. If they want to help you, that's fine-- often it's the decent and moral thing to do. But they cannot be forced to help you, no matter how much you need the help.

These new "rights", are in fact not rights at all. They are obligations upon others, imposed on them without their agreement or consent.

Beware of announcements that you have the "right" to this or that. Ask yourself if this "right", forces someone else to do something for you, that he didn't previously agree to. If it does, it's not a "right" possessed by you. It's an attempt by the announcer, to force others into servitude... an attempt, in fact, to violate the others' rights.
 
Strangest thing is, we have a candidate (a Democratic Socialist, natch) running for president who actually says out loud that health care IS a right. Last Presidential candidate to vocally supported such involuntary servitude, was Jefferson Davis.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
 
Our rights are what the American people say are our rights. What Jefferson wrote in the Declaration, was pretty liberal for his day, and since then we have grown even more liberal. Women can now vote, no more slavery, and Social Security for the elderly, I Wonder what it will be like 100 years from now, will man eventually achieve happiness or just continue the pursuit?
 
If Americans do not have a right to healthcare then, by extension, they have no right to expect anything if it costs money.
 
If the American people demand medical care as a right, this nation has the means and authority to make medical care a right.
 
If the American people demand medical care as a right, this nation has the means and authority to make medical care a right.
Strike two. You really need to read the OP, instead of pretending you did.

Since when does demanding something, and calling it something, make it a "right"? If you call a tail a leg, does that make it a leg? And if the govt passes a law saying tails are legs, does THAT make a tail a leg?
 
Our rights are what the American people say are our rights.
Already refuted in the OP.

Didn't even read the first post, did we? :biggrin:
Just because YOU say you refute something doesn't mean it's refuted. We all have a "right" to sue the govt if it denies us benefits to which we meet the requirements for benefits in programs such as SS medicare Medicaid UI public education, etc.

These are not fundamental rights found expressly or impliedly in the constitution but they are nonetheless rights secured by equal protection and due process which individual citizens can use courts to redress.

Whether healthcare is a right .... as it stands now, no state can refuse to allow a citizen to participate in Obamacare even if the state refuses to set up a state insurance exchange.
 
Our rights are what the American people say are our rights.
Already refuted in the OP.

Didn't even read the first post, did we? :biggrin:
Just because YOU say you refute something doesn't mean it's refuted. We all have a "right" to sue the govt if it denies us benefits to which we meet the requirements for benefits in programs such as SS medicare Medicaid UI public education, etc.

These are not fundamental rights found expressly or impliedly in the constitution but they are nonetheless rights secured by equal protection and due process which individual citizens can use courts to redress.

Whether healthcare is a right .... as it stands now, no state can refuse to allow a citizen to participate in Obamacare even if the state refuses to set up a state insurance exchange.
Since when does demanding something, and calling it something, make it a "right"? If you call a tail a leg, does that make it a leg? And if the govt passes a law saying tails are legs, does THAT make a tail a leg?

Calling something a "right", and making a law saying it's a "right", doesn't make it a right, as I pointed out in the OP (and nobody has challenged).

Anything that forces others to serve you or give you things, cannot possibly be a "right". It is merely a method for forcing involuntary servitude. Making laws doesn't change that.
 
Look at our history. It depends on what the American people demand; if and when they demand a program for medical care they will get a program for medical care. If they want a program to supplement their old age pension they will get, and have gotten, such a program.
 
Our rights are what the American people say are our rights.
Already refuted in the OP.

Didn't even read the first post, did we? :biggrin:
Just because YOU say you refute something doesn't mean it's refuted. We all have a "right" to sue the govt if it denies us benefits to which we meet the requirements for benefits in programs such as SS medicare Medicaid UI public education, etc.

These are not fundamental rights found expressly or impliedly in the constitution but they are nonetheless rights secured by equal protection and due process which individual citizens can use courts to redress.

Whether healthcare is a right .... as it stands now, no state can refuse to allow a citizen to participate in Obamacare even if the state refuses to set up a state insurance exchange.
Since when does demanding something, and calling it something, make it a "right"? If you call a tail a leg, does that make it a leg? And if the govt passes a law saying tails are legs, does THAT make a tail a leg?

Calling something a "right", and making a law saying it's a "right", doesn't make it a right, as I pointed out in the OP (and nobody has challenged).

Anything that forces others to serve you or give you things, cannot possibly be a "right". It is merely a method for forcing involuntary servitude. Making laws doesn't change that.
The OP disingenuously misstates the legal definition of "right" in order to claim something must be true, when a truthful definition would defeat the preconceived, and false, notion that the OP is founded upon.

There are rights found directly in the constitution, but that is not the only source. For example

1) n. an entitlement to something, whether to concepts like justice and due process, or to ownership of property or some interest in property, real or personal. These rights include various freedoms, protection against interference with enjoyment of life and property, civil rights enjoyed by citizens such as voting and access to the courts, natural rights accepted by civilized societies, human rights to protect people throughout the world from terror, torture, barbaric practices and deprivation of civil rights and profit from their labor, and such American constitutional guarantees as the right to freedoms of speech, press, religion, assembly and petition. 2) adj. just, fair, correct. (See: civil rights, marital rights)
right

Obamacare giving individuals a right to demand some benefit authorized by law may or may not be a wise govt decision. But denying it exists is simply being untruthful.
 
Health care is not a "right" - we just love cramming that word into every conversation about something we want.

However, a healthy populace is good economics, and the most cost-effective way to achieve that would be by expanding the current Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage program to all so that preventive, diagnostic and primary care are all low cost and easily accessed.

Adding to that would be the massive monkey we'd be taking off the back of American Business, since these plans are individual and portable and not the responsibility of employers in any way.
.
 
"Health care" - that is, goods and services provided by doctors, nurses, etc - IS a right, every bit as much as a house, a car, clothing, food, shelter, televisions and cell phones are a right:
You have the right to buy however much of it as you want.
 
Health care is not a "right" - we just love cramming that word into every conversation about something we want.

However, a healthy populace is good economics, and the most cost-effective way to achieve that would be by expanding the current Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage program to all so that preventive, diagnostic and primary care are all low cost and easily accessed.

Adding to that would be the massive monkey we'd be taking off the back of American Business, since these plans are individual and portable and not the responsibility of employers in any way.
.

Unfortunately your prescription for a "healthy populace" ignores the fact that it violates the rights of those that are forced against their will to pay for other peoples health care services, that includes paying for people that make poor health decisions. Not to mention the fact that it puts the system in the hands of the government which has demonstrated that it is completely incompetent when it comes to health care, just look at the financial state of Medicare (with unfunded liabilities approaching $30 TRILLION and sucking up an ever increasing share of the federal budget), we can't afford to pay for the shitty system of government health care entitlements we have right now and you want to add more? Ever since the federal government got into the health care game the system has had a long slide downhill and adding more of the disease isn't the cure.
 
Health care is not a "right" - we just love cramming that word into every conversation about something we want.

However, a healthy populace is good economics, and the most cost-effective way to achieve that would be by expanding the current Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage program to all so that preventive, diagnostic and primary care are all low cost and easily accessed.

Adding to that would be the massive monkey we'd be taking off the back of American Business, since these plans are individual and portable and not the responsibility of employers in any way.
.

Unfortunately your prescription for a "healthy populace" ignores the fact that it violates the rights of those that are forced against their will to pay for other peoples health care services, that includes paying for people that make poor health decisions. Not to mention the fact that it puts the system in the hands of the government which has demonstrated that it is completely incompetent when it comes to health care, just look at the financial state of Medicare (with unfunded liabilities approaching $30 TRILLION and sucking up an ever increasing share of the federal budget), we can't afford to pay for the shitty system of government health care entitlements we have right now and you want to add more? Ever since the federal government got into the health care game the system has had a long slide downhill and adding more of the disease isn't the cure.
I'm greedy.

I don't like having to pay higher health insurance premiums because I'm paying for the people you mention, those who make poor health decisions and who end up needing far more care than they would have, and still access care.

I don't like having to pay higher health insurance premiums because those who don't have access to preventive and diagnostic services wait until their conditions are far worse and they need far more care.

I don't like having to pay premiums in a health care system that has no less than SEVEN (7) different payment systems, none of which coordinate directly with each other: Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Workers Comp, Group, Individual/ACA, and indigent.

I don't like seeing how much my business clients are paying in health insurance premiums for their employees, especially when we both know there's no reason an employer should be doing that in the first place.

I don't like sitting in the ER with my sick daughter far longer than I need to because so many people have to use the ER as their primary care doc.

All this massive inefficiency is costing me money.
.
 
Health care is not a "right" - we just love cramming that word into every conversation about something we want.

However, a healthy populace is good economics, and the most cost-effective way to achieve that would be by expanding the current Medicare/Medicare Supplement/Medicare Advantage program to all so that preventive, diagnostic and primary care are all low cost and easily accessed.

Adding to that would be the massive monkey we'd be taking off the back of American Business, since these plans are individual and portable and not the responsibility of employers in any way.
.

Unfortunately your prescription for a "healthy populace" ignores the fact that it violates the rights of those that are forced against their will to pay for other peoples health care services, that includes paying for people that make poor health decisions. Not to mention the fact that it puts the system in the hands of the government which has demonstrated that it is completely incompetent when it comes to health care, just look at the financial state of Medicare (with unfunded liabilities approaching $30 TRILLION and sucking up an ever increasing share of the federal budget), we can't afford to pay for the shitty system of government health care entitlements we have right now and you want to add more? Ever since the federal government got into the health care game the system has had a long slide downhill and adding more of the disease isn't the cure.
I'm greedy.

I don't like having to pay higher health insurance premiums because I'm paying for the people you mention, those who make poor health decisions and who end up needing far more care than they would have, and still access care.

I don't like having to pay higher health insurance premiums because those who don't have access to preventive and diagnostic services wait until their conditions are far worse and they need far more care.

I don't like having to pay premiums in a health care system that has no less than SEVEN (7) different payment systems, none of which coordinate directly with each other: Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Workers Comp, Group, Individual/ACA, and indigent.

I don't like seeing how much my business clients are paying in health insurance premiums for their employees, especially when we both know there's no reason an employer should be doing that in the first place.

I don't like sitting in the ER with my sick daughter far longer than I need to because so many people have to use the ER as their primary care doc.

All this massive inefficiency is costing me money.
.

So er..ummm you want to take that massive inefficiency and make it more massive and think that's going to lower your costs? It's an interesting theory you have that more bureaucratic corruption and inefficiency is the cure for costs primarily caused by bureaucratic corruption and inefficiency, personally I don't think it's going to work.

For my money I'll go with the system that has proven to be the most efficient delivery mechanism for goods and services in the history of mankind, it's called the free market, perhaps you've heard of it? ;)
 

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