I worship Adolph Hitler as one of the Norse Gods and I want a Jew to bake me a cake

[frigidweirdo]

Who cares? The point here is that these "deeply religious people" will treat gay people one way, and adulterers differently, that's how "deeply religious" they are.

We don't see adulterers having "Pride" parades and demanding approval. Most adulterers keep their sins secret.

Oh, right, so, it's not that you you oppose gay people, it's that you don't want to serve them because you CAN SEE THEM.

Are you really that childish? You do realize that if gay people were treated the same as anyone else, there'd be no need for gay pride events, right?

Having a sexual dysfunction is hardly something you want to put on a parade for.

Ah, yes, instead of making it something you are born with, let's just pretend it's "sexual dysfunction" and then we can bash the fuckers till we die and still think we're going to heaven.

What next?

Blacks = skin dysfunction
Women = gender dysfunction or balls dysfunction
Liberals = brain dysfunction

Well now you just yourself a day trip to heaven.

People put on parades because they have been targeted by people and they're fighting back to show there's nothing wrong with the way they were born.

It wasn't the way they were born. Have you ever heard of a "gay gene" that's passed down from previous generations?

It's a "behavior".

Is there are mental problem gene?

Certain they suggest that mental problems share "genetic glitches" as one person put it. But is there a mental problem gene?

What makes a woman be attracted to a man? What gene is this exactly?

Or are you just an arm chair know it all?

 

[frigidweirdo]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

Basically the cake maker opened themselves up. If you say "We can make you any cake with any photo on" then they could then be forced to do something they didn't want.

Seems they literally aren't very bright.

 

[JGalt]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

The baker also wouldn't make baked goods for Halloween celebrations or anything that's "adult-themed" either, so it wasn't only about making one for the Sodomites.

 

[irosie91]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

 

[JGalt]

We don't see adulterers having "Pride" parades and demanding approval. Most adulterers keep their sins secret.

Oh, right, so, it's not that you you oppose gay people, it's that you don't want to serve them because you CAN SEE THEM.

Are you really that childish? You do realize that if gay people were treated the same as anyone else, there'd be no need for gay pride events, right?

Having a sexual dysfunction is hardly something you want to put on a parade for.

Ah, yes, instead of making it something you are born with, let's just pretend it's "sexual dysfunction" and then we can bash the fuckers till we die and still think we're going to heaven.

What next?

Blacks = skin dysfunction
Women = gender dysfunction or balls dysfunction
Liberals = brain dysfunction

Well now you just yourself a day trip to heaven.

People put on parades because they have been targeted by people and they're fighting back to show there's nothing wrong with the way they were born.

It wasn't the way they were born. Have you ever heard of a "gay gene" that's passed down from previous generations?

It's a "behavior".

Is there are mental problem gene?

Certain they suggest that mental problems share "genetic glitches" as one person put it. But is there a mental problem gene?

What makes a woman be attracted to a man? What gene is this exactly?

Or are you just an arm chair know it all?

Of course mental illness can be passed on to subsequent generations, that's a known fact. Another fact is that males are naturally attracted to females, and females to males. That is a universal trait of all species. If you consider the gene-centered view of evolution then yes, the propagation of the species in embedded within our DNA.

 

[JoeMoma]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

The baker also wouldn't make baked goods for Halloween celebrations or anything that's "adult-themed" either, so it wasn't only about making one for the Sodomites.

And that makes perfect sense. However, someone wants to buy a plain ol’ cholate cake and take it to serve at a Sex Toy party, that should not be a problem. It’s really none of the bakers business.

Bottom line, the baker should have control of any artistic message he creates with his baked goods. He has the right to say “I will not make it that way”. However, if he does make cakes “that way”, then he should be willing to make a cake “that way” for any paying customer.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Oh, right, so, it's not that you you oppose gay people, it's that you don't want to serve them because you CAN SEE THEM.

Are you really that childish? You do realize that if gay people were treated the same as anyone else, there'd be no need for gay pride events, right?

Having a sexual dysfunction is hardly something you want to put on a parade for.

Ah, yes, instead of making it something you are born with, let's just pretend it's "sexual dysfunction" and then we can bash the fuckers till we die and still think we're going to heaven.

What next?

Blacks = skin dysfunction
Women = gender dysfunction or balls dysfunction
Liberals = brain dysfunction

Well now you just yourself a day trip to heaven.

People put on parades because they have been targeted by people and they're fighting back to show there's nothing wrong with the way they were born.

It wasn't the way they were born. Have you ever heard of a "gay gene" that's passed down from previous generations?

It's a "behavior".

Is there are mental problem gene?

Certain they suggest that mental problems share "genetic glitches" as one person put it. But is there a mental problem gene?

What makes a woman be attracted to a man? What gene is this exactly?

Or are you just an arm chair know it all?

Of course mental illness can be passed on to subsequent generations, that's a known fact. Another fact is that males are naturally attracted to females, and females to males. That is a universal trait of all species. If you consider the gene-centered view of evolution then yes, the propagation of the species in embedded within our DNA.

Yes, it can. But why?

Why are males attracted to females. "It is known", it is also "known" that people are born gay.

Now, your argument is that gay is a behavior, well, maybe being sexually attracted to the opposite sex is therefore mere "behavior".

DNA can be changed, evolution has shown us that, but we also know that mental problems are caused by this, plus other medical problems. So, if being attracted to the opposite sex is "embedded within our DNA" then this can CHANGE.

Therefore being gay IS NOT behavior.

 

[JoeMoma]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

 

[frigidweirdo]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

 

[JGalt]

Having a sexual dysfunction is hardly something you want to put on a parade for.

Ah, yes, instead of making it something you are born with, let's just pretend it's "sexual dysfunction" and then we can bash the fuckers till we die and still think we're going to heaven.

What next?

Blacks = skin dysfunction
Women = gender dysfunction or balls dysfunction
Liberals = brain dysfunction

Well now you just yourself a day trip to heaven.

People put on parades because they have been targeted by people and they're fighting back to show there's nothing wrong with the way they were born.

It wasn't the way they were born. Have you ever heard of a "gay gene" that's passed down from previous generations?

It's a "behavior".

Is there are mental problem gene?

Certain they suggest that mental problems share "genetic glitches" as one person put it. But is there a mental problem gene?

What makes a woman be attracted to a man? What gene is this exactly?

Or are you just an arm chair know it all?

Of course mental illness can be passed on to subsequent generations, that's a known fact. Another fact is that males are naturally attracted to females, and females to males. That is a universal trait of all species. If you consider the gene-centered view of evolution then yes, the propagation of the species in embedded within our DNA.

Yes, it can. But why?

Why are males attracted to females. "It is known", it is also "known" that people are born gay.

Now, your argument is that gay is a behavior, well, maybe being sexually attracted to the opposite sex is therefore mere "behavior".

DNA can be changed, evolution has shown us that, but we also know that mental problems are caused by this, plus other medical problems. So, if being attracted to the opposite sex is "embedded within our DNA" then this can CHANGE.

Therefore being gay IS NOT behavior.

How can it be "known" that people are born gay? Is there some kind of a test that can be administered to a new-born baby which has has years to go before reaching puberty?

That's a new one on me.

 

[JGalt]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

Even with a plain cake, it's obvious the baker knew that it was for a same-sex marriage. Evidently he felt that it was against his religious beliefs to take part in that.

 

[JoeMoma]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

He shouldn’t even have to have a list of “approved messages”. He should be free to say I am not going to make a cake that looks like a penis even if he is willing to make special shaped cakes like footballs and snoopy.

 

[JGalt]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

The message has nothing to do with it. Suppose you are a black person and you own a bakery. A person comes in and states that he wants a plain white cake baked for his Ku Klux Klan meeting.

Are you legally obligated to make the cake, or can you tell him "Get the hell out of my shop"?

 

[JoeMoma]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

Even with a plain cake, it's obvious the baker knew that it was for a same-sex marriage. Evidently he felt that it was against his religious beliefs to take part in that.

That’s where I believe the baker is crossing a line he shouldn’t cross. It’s not his responsibility to ensure that the baked goods are only eaten in venues in which he approves. And there is no way he can control that anyway.

Even when selling products “off the shelf”, he should understand that some of the baked goods will be consumed at events where people are participating in SIN. However, producing the baked good is not participation in the sin.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Ah, yes, instead of making it something you are born with, let's just pretend it's "sexual dysfunction" and then we can bash the fuckers till we die and still think we're going to heaven.

What next?

Blacks = skin dysfunction
Women = gender dysfunction or balls dysfunction
Liberals = brain dysfunction

Well now you just yourself a day trip to heaven.

People put on parades because they have been targeted by people and they're fighting back to show there's nothing wrong with the way they were born.

It wasn't the way they were born. Have you ever heard of a "gay gene" that's passed down from previous generations?

It's a "behavior".

Is there are mental problem gene?

Certain they suggest that mental problems share "genetic glitches" as one person put it. But is there a mental problem gene?

What makes a woman be attracted to a man? What gene is this exactly?

Or are you just an arm chair know it all?

Of course mental illness can be passed on to subsequent generations, that's a known fact. Another fact is that males are naturally attracted to females, and females to males. That is a universal trait of all species. If you consider the gene-centered view of evolution then yes, the propagation of the species in embedded within our DNA.

Yes, it can. But why?

Why are males attracted to females. "It is known", it is also "known" that people are born gay.

Now, your argument is that gay is a behavior, well, maybe being sexually attracted to the opposite sex is therefore mere "behavior".

DNA can be changed, evolution has shown us that, but we also know that mental problems are caused by this, plus other medical problems. So, if being attracted to the opposite sex is "embedded within our DNA" then this can CHANGE.

Therefore being gay IS NOT behavior.

How can it be "known" that people are born gay? Is there some kind of a test that can be administered to a new-born baby which has has years to go before reaching puberty?

That's a new one on me.

Look, you're saying "it is known" so I'm saying "it is known", you can't prove your "it is known" why the hell should I prove mine?

Just because you don't accept something, doesn't mean it isn't so. I've seen kids who I knew were gay. I've seen people who wouldn't accept they were gay.

I had a deputy manager who everyone said was gay but himself. He even bragged he'd had a threesome with one of the customers. No one believed him. Then he became boss after I'd left and he found out some other bosses in the company were gay and went crazy with freedom.

Are you telling me this is just behavior? He didn't choose this.

You have examples of twins where one is gay, how could that be so if it's behavior?

You're saying that people are attracted to the opposite sex and it's "embedded in the DNA", well then, I supposed you can do a test which shows this, can't you?

 

[frigidweirdo]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

The message has nothing to do with it. Suppose you are a black person and you own a bakery. A person comes in and states that he wants a plain white cake baked for his Ku Klux Klan meeting.

Are you legally obligated to make the cake, or can you tell him "Get the hell out of my shop"?

Well, there are lots of different reasonings behind all of this.

The first is that all people be treated the same based on who they were born as.

So a black person doesn't have to put up with abuse in their daily life for being black.

If a KKK person comes in and asks for a white cake, does the black person know it's for a KKK meeting? If the KKK person goes in and doesn't make any mention of being KKK then what's the problem? If the KKK person goes in and deliberately provokes the black person, this is something different.

When it comes to religion it is something slightly different. You are not born religious, this is something that is pumped into you from a young age. You can change your religion and your religious beliefs.

Christianity isn't inherently anti-gay, a lot of religious people are, but I've know gay Christians and pro-gay Christians. So, here it's about behavior and not about something that is inherent. Being gay is different.

 

[JoeMoma]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

The message has nothing to do with it. Suppose you are a black person and you own a bakery. A person comes in and states that he wants a plain white cake baked for his Ku Klux Klan meeting.

Are you legally obligated to make the cake, or can you tell him "Get the hell out of my shop"?

That is an excellent point. I don’t think any accommodation laws would be used against the black baker in this circumstance.

 

[flacaltenn]

I want to hire a Muslim band to play at my nephews Bar Mitzvah....and I want a Muslim baker to bake me a cake that looks like the WTC with a couple of jets flying into them. I want to force a Muslim butcher to prepare a delicious smoked ham and a Muslim caterer to prepare a Kosher meal to include Hummus and Peta bread and force the Fercockt Ragheads to eat pork and like it.

If a product is not sold, you cannot compel someplace to provide something they don't already provide. If the establishment does provide the product, they can't refuse to sell it based on who the customer is....unless there are no protections for that group.

People who create specials and customs will just STOP. If you don't see it in their catalogue -- make it yourself. It's silly really. Blacks support Black businesses. Jews support Jewish businesses. Muslim support muslim businesses. Why don't gay activists just support gay activist businesses?

 

[JoeMoma]

If the wedding cake for the gay couple looks the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should make the cake because it’s “on his menu”. If the wedding cake for the gay couple is not the same as a wedding cake for a straight couple, then the cake maker should be able to turn down the job.....the cake is not of the type offered “on the menu”.

Unless there is something about the artwork of the cake that says “I support gay marriage”, I don’t see how it’s any different that selling the gay couple baked goods off the shelf.

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

The message has nothing to do with it. Suppose you are a black person and you own a bakery. A person comes in and states that he wants a plain white cake baked for his Ku Klux Klan meeting.

Are you legally obligated to make the cake, or can you tell him "Get the hell out of my shop"?

That is an excellent point. I don’t think any accommodation laws would be used against the black baker in this circumstance.

Should a black baker be able to ban a known KKK member from coming into his shop? Obviously being a KKK member is not a protected class.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I think that some of the issues are-----those little plastic people standing on the cake----two boys turn some bakers off------and the INSCRIPTION done in red-jelly goo------
JOHN LOVES JACK----turn some people off. Bakers should sell UNINSCRIBED cakes and------jell tubes. ------and little plastic figures
from a random box. bottom line----the whole thing is a pile of bullshit

The baker should be free form putting any message on the cake he disagrees with.

However, if it’s just a plain cake with no message............need I say more?

They are free to do that. They can simply say "We do not do cakes with messages outside of the list we have here".

It's called USING YOUR BRAIN, and those bakers... well.... didn't use their brains.

The message has nothing to do with it. Suppose you are a black person and you own a bakery. A person comes in and states that he wants a plain white cake baked for his Ku Klux Klan meeting.

Are you legally obligated to make the cake, or can you tell him "Get the hell out of my shop"?

That is an excellent point. I don’t think any accommodation laws would be used against the black baker in this circumstance.

Should a black baker be able to ban a known KKK member from coming into his shop? Obviously being a KKK member is not a protected class.

I would say that is dependent upon the circumstances. If the KKK member goes in, buys something and leaves in a normal fashion, then no.