I know it won't make a difference to the radicalized people....

[Redfish]

Who's to blame and how do we fix it?
It's easy to criticize and finger point. How about solutions or suggestions?

its really east. let the laws of supply and demand set the price of labor. If you have no skills and no education you can't expect much pay. Thats just life. Deal with it.

Our schools suck because of liberal policies that do not demand results from either students or teachers. Fix the schools first, then set up trade schools to teach welding, plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanics. Every kid does not need to go to college. mandatory military or civil service would also give young people a place to learn some skills and work ethics.

This stuff is not complicated once you get past the PC liberal bullshit that everyone has to have equal stuff and equal financial results.

 

[Redfish]

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

Who said a thing about paying people more to do less?

Stop spending your time calling people names and recognize that many people living at or below the poverty line only want to make enough money to survive while they are doing what it takes to better themselves. $8 an hour/ 40 hours a week is nowhere near what it takes just to survive.

Minimum wage jobs are not intended to be lifetime careers. They are a starting point or a place for teens to earn pocket money and learn about work. This whole MW discussion is idiotic.

 

[Redfish]

Once again, there are two sides to the argument. Those that recognize that the working class in this country have gotten a raw deal and those who just want people to pull on those boot straps a little harder and things will magically get better.

The clear demonstration of why this boot strap view of reality is broken is the EMT guy who works really hard but is still earning a wage that makes him dependent on the state for help.

And that goes right back to cultural values. We don't put much value on an EMT saving lives. We put value on rich heirs with fake combovers on "reality" shows going "you're fired". That kinda speaks volumes.

you forgot about paying old politicians 200K for a 20 minute speech. e.g. the clintons.

 

[Pogo]

Once again, there are two sides to the argument. Those that recognize that the working class in this country have gotten a raw deal and those who just want people to pull on those boot straps a little harder and things will magically get better.

The clear demonstration of why this boot strap view of reality is broken is the EMT guy who works really hard but is still earning a wage that makes him dependent on the state for help.

And that goes right back to cultural values. We don't put much value on an EMT saving lives. We put value on rich heirs with fake combovers on "reality" shows going "you're fired". That kinda speaks volumes.

you forgot about paying old politicians 200K for a 20 minute speech. e.g. the clintons.

That too -- it goes right back to "celebrity", which is what I noted.

I didn't go into great detail, kept it short. We could toss in professional athletes... actors.... any number of attention whores selling style over substance. And underneath it all, the commodity fetish culture that drives it.

 

[koshergrl]

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

Who said a thing about paying people more to do less?

Stop spending your time calling people names and recognize that many people living at or below the poverty line only want to make enough money to survive while they are doing what it takes to better themselves. $8 an hour/ 40 hours a week is nowhere near what it takes just to survive.

It provides survival for one person just fine. And if it's not the manner in which you've become accustomed to live, I suggest you find a way to climb the ladder of success. Perhaps go to college, or put in extra hours.

 

[Bombur]

But sometimes it has to simplified for some people to understand the argument.

View attachment 45796

I was told in another thread that the problem with people's income is that they just don't work hard enough. On one side of this argument are people who think that the working class has been hosed. The other side thinks everything is fine but when they are not fine it is because people are not pulling on their boot straps hard enough.

BTW I am for a higher min wage but it needs to increase gradually. The last thing that labor market needs is a price shock.

Then you were told wrong.

The problem is not that people who want more need to work harder. It is that if they want more (i.e., wages) they have to bring more to the table than they are bringing right now. If I flip burgers (which requires nearly zero skills) and want more money, I take a few classes in management or supervision at the local CC...

If I want to make a lot MORE money, I take classes in a vocation that interests Me, do research on that vocation while getting the skills, and then go to get job well prepared to meet an employers need in that particular job.

I don't walk on a sidewalk and whine like a 4 year old about how life isn't fair and that this world owes Me something.

Once again, there are two sides to the argument. Those that recognize that the working class in this country have gotten a raw deal and those who just want people to pull on those boot straps a little harder and things will magically get better.

The clear demonstration of why this boot strap view of reality is broken is the EMT guy who works really hard but is still earning a wage that makes him dependent on the state for help.

There are some fundamental problems in our labor market and the right needs to not only accept that these problems exists but they have a real impact on the lives of working families. The right needs to stop pointing at the poor and blaming them for everything.

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

The EMT is working class. The people working retail these days are the lower end of the working class in an age of big store consumerism. There are no longer the factory jobs to support this group so they have flocked to retail.

A lot of the working class do qualify for government help because their wages are so low (even when working full time) that they qualify.

Once again there are two basic ways to look at this issue. You can focus on bootstrap pulling or economics.

 

[Bombur]

But sometimes it has to simplified for some people to understand the argument.

View attachment 45796

I was told in another thread that the problem with people's income is that they just don't work hard enough. On one side of this argument are people who think that the working class has been hosed. The other side thinks everything is fine but when they are not fine it is because people are not pulling on their boot straps hard enough.

BTW I am for a higher min wage but it needs to increase gradually. The last thing that labor market needs is a price shock.

Then you were told wrong.

The problem is not that people who want more need to work harder. It is that if they want more (i.e., wages) they have to bring more to the table than they are bringing right now. If I flip burgers (which requires nearly zero skills) and want more money, I take a few classes in management or supervision at the local CC...

If I want to make a lot MORE money, I take classes in a vocation that interests Me, do research on that vocation while getting the skills, and then go to get job well prepared to meet an employers need in that particular job.

I don't walk on a sidewalk and whine like a 4 year old about how life isn't fair and that this world owes Me something.

Once again, there are two sides to the argument. Those that recognize that the working class in this country have gotten a raw deal and those who just want people to pull on those boot straps a little harder and things will magically get better.

The clear demonstration of why this boot strap view of reality is broken is the EMT guy who works really hard but is still earning a wage that makes him dependent on the state for help.

There are some fundamental problems in our labor market and the right needs to not only accept that these problems exists but they have a real impact on the lives of working families. The right needs to stop pointing at the poor and blaming them for everything.

yeah, sorry but I don't buy into the workers of the world are getting screwed meme....Every person who works knows what they are going into before they put in their very first hour of labor. Knowing that, they have two options.

Decide that they are going to use a bad situation or poor job as a mere stepping stone to better things, or;

Decide that they're going to whine and complain and hope that they can get enough people on their side to make themselves feel part of a collective......

The former is a proactive means of living life...the later is nothing more than passive-aggressive manipulation of a the system for their own selfish benefit.

The guy on the left is working at 15 dollars an hour....He worked hard to acquire the education to get that job.

Here is where your (and most progressive) argument fails.

Who says he will remain in that job or remain at 15 per hour?

If he wants more, he already has a background and eduction in emergency medicine....He'll likely continue his education and work his way up to a Nurses aid? Maybe a LPN? Or even up to a full blown Nurse....

And guess what...He likely won't stop there....After that, he'll still be young....perhaps a Physcians Assistant? Maybe even get a medical degree and become a Doctor....

All of this moves him up the ladder in income and career satisfaction...

Stop thinking that once you have a job...(good paying or otherwise) that you can just stop trying to advance yourself....

You must continually be striving to improve your skills and quality of life....

Just to it at your own expense.

Working hard is great.

That doesn't mean that labor markets and therefor wages aren't impacted by things outside of your control.

If you can't get your mind wrapped around this simple fact you will struggle to say anything meaningful in this conversation.

 

[koshergrl]

But sometimes it has to simplified for some people to understand the argument.

View attachment 45796

I was told in another thread that the problem with people's income is that they just don't work hard enough. On one side of this argument are people who think that the working class has been hosed. The other side thinks everything is fine but when they are not fine it is because people are not pulling on their boot straps hard enough.

BTW I am for a higher min wage but it needs to increase gradually. The last thing that labor market needs is a price shock.

Then you were told wrong.

The problem is not that people who want more need to work harder. It is that if they want more (i.e., wages) they have to bring more to the table than they are bringing right now. If I flip burgers (which requires nearly zero skills) and want more money, I take a few classes in management or supervision at the local CC...

If I want to make a lot MORE money, I take classes in a vocation that interests Me, do research on that vocation while getting the skills, and then go to get job well prepared to meet an employers need in that particular job.

I don't walk on a sidewalk and whine like a 4 year old about how life isn't fair and that this world owes Me something.

Once again, there are two sides to the argument. Those that recognize that the working class in this country have gotten a raw deal and those who just want people to pull on those boot straps a little harder and things will magically get better.

The clear demonstration of why this boot strap view of reality is broken is the EMT guy who works really hard but is still earning a wage that makes him dependent on the state for help.

There are some fundamental problems in our labor market and the right needs to not only accept that these problems exists but they have a real impact on the lives of working families. The right needs to stop pointing at the poor and blaming them for everything.

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

The EMT is working class. The people working retail these days are the lower end of the working class in an age of big store consumerism. There are no longer the factory jobs to support this group so they have flocked to retail.

A lot of the working class do qualify for government help because their wages are so low (even when working full time) that they qualify.

Once again there are two basic ways to look at this issue. You can focus on bootstrap pulling or economics.

Thank you, I understand economics just fine.

Economics 101 - you don't pay more than what a job is worth.

 

[MsnBama]

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

Who said a thing about paying people more to do less?

Stop spending your time calling people names and recognize that many people living at or below the poverty line only want to make enough money to survive while they are doing what it takes to better themselves. $8 an hour/ 40 hours a week is nowhere near what it takes just to survive.

It provides survival for one person just fine. And if it's not the manner in which you've become accustomed to live, I suggest you find a way to climb the ladder of success. Perhaps go to college, or put in extra hours.

You have clearly never had to pull yourself out of poverty or you would be compassionate toward people who have instead of petty and condescending. I've watched plenty of people bust their asses working multiple jobs who still fail to make ends meet or just barely make it work with little time to do anything else except sleep. It is wrong and why anyone within society would argue against helping people succeed is beyond my understanding.

 

[koshergrl]

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

Who said a thing about paying people more to do less?

Stop spending your time calling people names and recognize that many people living at or below the poverty line only want to make enough money to survive while they are doing what it takes to better themselves. $8 an hour/ 40 hours a week is nowhere near what it takes just to survive.

It provides survival for one person just fine. And if it's not the manner in which you've become accustomed to live, I suggest you find a way to climb the ladder of success. Perhaps go to college, or put in extra hours.

You have clearly never had to pull yourself out of poverty or you would be compassionate toward people who have instead of petty and condescending. I've watched plenty of people bust their asses working multiple jobs who still fail to make ends meet or just barely make it work with little time to do anything else except sleep. It is wrong and why anyone within society would argue against helping people succeed is beyond my understanding.

I pulled myself and all four of my kids up out of poverty. Barely. And I work with, and have worked with, the population you're crippling for decades.

 

[koshergrl]

I did it by working my ass off and not whining about how much more I should be getting from the government or from my bosses. I did it by setting goals and meeting them. My #1 goal was not to be on welfare.

That's the way non-entitlement, WORKING folks do it.

 

[MsnBama]

I pulled myself and all four of my kids up out of poverty. Barely. And I work with, and have worked with, the population you're crippling for decades.

If you expect me to believe you worked multiple jobs with four kids, paid all your bills yourself without a dime of assistance then you have really underestimated my level of intelligence.

I know what it takes to start from the very bottom and you didn't do it alone, not with four kids in tow.

 

[Bombur]

I was told in another thread that the problem with people's income is that they just don't work hard enough. On one side of this argument are people who think that the working class has been hosed. The other side thinks everything is fine but when they are not fine it is because people are not pulling on their boot straps hard enough.

BTW I am for a higher min wage but it needs to increase gradually. The last thing that labor market needs is a price shock.

Then you were told wrong.

The problem is not that people who want more need to work harder. It is that if they want more (i.e., wages) they have to bring more to the table than they are bringing right now. If I flip burgers (which requires nearly zero skills) and want more money, I take a few classes in management or supervision at the local CC...

If I want to make a lot MORE money, I take classes in a vocation that interests Me, do research on that vocation while getting the skills, and then go to get job well prepared to meet an employers need in that particular job.

I don't walk on a sidewalk and whine like a 4 year old about how life isn't fair and that this world owes Me something.

Once again, there are two sides to the argument. Those that recognize that the working class in this country have gotten a raw deal and those who just want people to pull on those boot straps a little harder and things will magically get better.

The clear demonstration of why this boot strap view of reality is broken is the EMT guy who works really hard but is still earning a wage that makes him dependent on the state for help.

There are some fundamental problems in our labor market and the right needs to not only accept that these problems exists but they have a real impact on the lives of working families. The right needs to stop pointing at the poor and blaming them for everything.

The idiots who work 4 hours 4 days a week at McDonald's aren't "working class". They're "non-working class" because they can't get and keep a decent job, or earn enough to support themselves. WORKING CLASS people aren't sucking foodstamps. They're people like me who work their fucking asses off to get by without foodstamps. Paying people more to do less is retarded. I just can't get over how retarded lefties are.

The EMT is working class. The people working retail these days are the lower end of the working class in an age of big store consumerism. There are no longer the factory jobs to support this group so they have flocked to retail.

A lot of the working class do qualify for government help because their wages are so low (even when working full time) that they qualify.

Once again there are two basic ways to look at this issue. You can focus on bootstrap pulling or economics.

Thank you, I understand economics just fine.

Economics 101 - you don't pay more than what a job is worth.

If you are an employer you hope to pay the workers less than what they are worth to you so you can make money.

In fact you want to pay them as little as possible. Theoretically you keep hiring more workers until there is no longer a marginal benefit greater than the marginal cost but you may not even get to that point.

 

[koshergrl]

I pulled myself and all four of my kids up out of poverty. Barely. And I work with, and have worked with, the population you're crippling for decades.

If you expect me to believe you worked multiple jobs with four kids, paid all your bills yourself without a dime of assistance then you have really underestimated my level of intelligence.

I know what it takes to start from the very bottom and you didn't do it alone, not with four kids in tow.

I only had two kids at a time. Like in separate litters.

Yes indeed I started at the bottom, and never received child support. You can believe it or not, there are people who have known me for years on here who know it's true.

Yes, you can do it alone and I did.

 

[MsnBama]

I did it by working my ass off and not whining about how much more I should be getting from the government or from my bosses. I did it by setting goals and meeting them. My #1 goal was not to be on welfare.

That's the way non-entitlement, WORKING folks do it.

Yeah, because the only people who accept assistance are lazy, useless human beings only interested in being a siphon attached to the wealthy.

 

[koshergrl]

I pulled myself and all four of my kids up out of poverty. Barely. And I work with, and have worked with, the population you're crippling for decades.

If you expect me to believe you worked multiple jobs with four kids, paid all your bills yourself without a dime of assistance then you have really underestimated my level of intelligence.

I know what it takes to start from the very bottom and you didn't do it alone, not with four kids in tow.

The fact that you don't believe it can be done is just evidence that you don't think very highly of poor people. Apparently you're of the class that believes it can't accomplish anything and therefore shouldn't try.

 

[koshergrl]

I did it by working my ass off and not whining about how much more I should be getting from the government or from my bosses. I did it by setting goals and meeting them. My #1 goal was not to be on welfare.

That's the way non-entitlement, WORKING folks do it.

Yeah, because the only people who accept assistance are lazy, useless human beings only interested in being a siphon attached to the wealthy.

Oh not everybody who accepts assistance. Just you and some others like you.

And the siphon isn't attached to the wealthy. It's attached to people like ME who aren't wealthy, who work their fucking asses off for what they have and don't appreciate losers who want to suck it all away, and act like they're some sort of non deserving elitist class because they WORK.

 

[MsnBama]

I pulled myself and all four of my kids up out of poverty. Barely. And I work with, and have worked with, the population you're crippling for decades.

If you expect me to believe you worked multiple jobs with four kids, paid all your bills yourself without a dime of assistance then you have really underestimated my level of intelligence.

I know what it takes to start from the very bottom and you didn't do it alone, not with four kids in tow.

I only had two kids at a time. Like in separate litters.

Yes indeed I started at the bottom, and never received child support. You can believe it or not, there are people who have known me for years on here who know it's true.

Yes, you can do it alone and I did.

Well then you should take all that expertise and teach the masses because I don't know one person who pulled themselves up from the bottom of the barrel completely and utterly alone and without any help from anyone.

Some of us were blessed enough to be born into families capable of helping others but are compassionate, kind, and intelligent enough to recognize that not everyone was and that most people below the poverty level don't want handouts, they just want a hand up and they're willing to work hard for it. Forgive me if I would rather spend my time helping people who are down instead of kicking them or admonishing them to "work harder" when they already are.

 

[koshergrl]

I pulled myself and all four of my kids up out of poverty. Barely. And I work with, and have worked with, the population you're crippling for decades.

If you expect me to believe you worked multiple jobs with four kids, paid all your bills yourself without a dime of assistance then you have really underestimated my level of intelligence.

I know what it takes to start from the very bottom and you didn't do it alone, not with four kids in tow.

I only had two kids at a time. Like in separate litters.

Yes indeed I started at the bottom, and never received child support. You can believe it or not, there are people who have known me for years on here who know it's true.

Yes, you can do it alone and I did.

Well then you should take all that expertise and teach the masses because I don't know one person who pulled themselves up from the bottom of the barrel completely and utterly alone and without any help from anyone.

Some of us were blessed enough to be born into families capable of helping others but are compassionate, kind, and intelligent enough to recognize that not everyone was and that most people below the poverty level don't want handouts, they just want a hand up and they're willing to work hard for it. Forgive me if I would rather spend my time helping people who are down instead of kicking them or admonishing them to "work harder" when they already are.

Quit waxing hysterical and get to work.

 

[MsnBama]

I did it by working my ass off and not whining about how much more I should be getting from the government or from my bosses. I did it by setting goals and meeting them. My #1 goal was not to be on welfare.

That's the way non-entitlement, WORKING folks do it.

Yeah, because the only people who accept assistance are lazy, useless human beings only interested in being a siphon attached to the wealthy.

Oh not everybody who accepts assistance. Just you and some others like you.

And the siphon isn't attached to the wealthy. It's attached to people like ME who aren't wealthy, who work their fucking asses off for what they have and don't appreciate losers who want to suck it all away, and act like they're some sort of non deserving elitist class because they WORK.

I love that you're making such an utterly asinine assumption about me for absolutely no other reason than I disagree with your opinion.