Hunting and the Wildlife Overpopulation Myth

[Sunshine]

Of course hunters hunt for food.

Oh sure, there's no enjoyment in it at all, huh?

And I notice you avoided the issue of killing by proxy. Hypocrite, know thyself.

A) I'm a vegetarian.

B) The animals in slaughterhouses were bred to be food. Some of the domesticated livestock we have couldn't even survive without man. While I have no desire to eat meat, I can accept store bought meat because the animals killed in the process were specifically there for that purpose.

I could accept traditional hunting as well, if environments were not manipulated to their detriment to support it. This isn't about killing animals; it's about destroying natural ecosystems for the perceived benefit of mankind.

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

 

[jon_berzerk]

Of course hunters hunt for food.

Oh sure, there's no enjoyment in it at all, huh?

And I notice you avoided the issue of killing by proxy. Hypocrite, know thyself.

A) I'm a vegetarian.

B) The animals in slaughterhouses were bred to be food. Some of the domesticated livestock we have couldn't even survive without man. While I have no desire to eat meat, I can accept store bought meat because the animals killed in the process were specifically there for that purpose.

I could accept traditional hunting as well, if environments were not manipulated to their detriment to support it. This isn't about killing animals; it's about destroying natural ecosystems for the perceived benefit of mankind.

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

or take up the animals space

by planting people food

 

[DarkLion]

It is unnatural because when humans hunt predators, they are hunting them to either reduce their population or eradicate them entirely. Humans are the only animals that do that.

lots of critters eat themselves out of house and home

go try again

Name one

 

[Sunshine]

Oh sure, there's no enjoyment in it at all, huh?



A) I'm a vegetarian.

B) The animals in slaughterhouses were bred to be food. Some of the domesticated livestock we have couldn't even survive without man. While I have no desire to eat meat, I can accept store bought meat because the animals killed in the process were specifically there for that purpose.

I could accept traditional hunting as well, if environments were not manipulated to their detriment to support it. This isn't about killing animals; it's about destroying natural ecosystems for the perceived benefit of mankind.

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

or take up the animals space

by planting people food

Anyone who has ever raised a garden knows it is ALL animal food!

 

[Staidhup]

Some predators may prey on humans. People tend to object to that. Others may prey on livestock and pets. Human predation is no less natural than wolf or bear and humans are as much a part of the ecosystem as any other animal and better able to discriminate between helpful and harmful.

It is unnatural because when humans hunt predators, they are hunting them to either reduce their population or eradicate them entirely. Humans are the only animals that do that. Other predators simply hunt for enough food to feed themselves, or in the case of foxes they hunt when game presents itself and then cache it for later. But either way, when predators kill it's a very small scope of life lost. When humans do it, it's much larger.

Moreover, humans are not "better able to discriminate between helpful and harmful" because their activity always leads to unintended consequences, which I'll delve into in subsequent posts. Read on....

Unfortunately you are a little confused about predator vs predator relationships. Brown Bears kill Black Bears, Wolves kill coyotes, foxes, cougars kill coyotes, foxes, bears, anything. Lions kill leopards, hyenahs.... Predators kill predators to keep the competition down. To state predators do not kill their competition is simply wrong and uninformed.

 

[DarkLion]

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

Well, for one thing, I'm not going out into their land and taking their food. Farmland is for human food.

 

[jon_berzerk]

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

Well, for one thing, I'm not going out into their land and taking their food. Farmland is for human food.

farmland was animal land at one time

 

[DarkLion]

or take up the animals space

by planting people food

Hopefully that can be alleviated by vertical farming one day. Unfortunately, humans will likely decide that land saved by vertical farming should be covered by human development as well. Our species is not yet mature enough to know that not all available space should be used for humans.

 

[Sunshine]

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

Well, for one thing, I'm not going out into their land and taking their food. Farmland is for human food.

Not originally. Here in western KY there were herds of bison that lived on the land that is now farm land. It was open prairie. I do believe you have painted yourself into a corner there. All farm land in the US is land where animals once lived and fed.

 

[DarkLion]

Unfortunately you are a little confused about predator vs predator relationships. Brown Bears kill Black Bears, Wolves kill coyotes, foxes, cougars kill coyotes, foxes, bears, anything. Lions kill leopards, hyenahs.... Predators kill predators to keep the competition down. To state predators do not kill their competition is simply wrong and uninformed.

Evidently you missed my post where I explained that the decline of wolf numbers has lead to the increase in coyote populations. Predators keep each other in check. Another reason why managed ecosystems are a bad idea and lead to many consequences.

 

[DarkLion]

Not originally. Here in western KY there were herds of bison that lived on the land that is now farm land. It was open prairie. I do believe you have painted yourself into a corner there. All farm land in the US is land where animals once lived and fed.

"Painted myself into a corner"? Jesus fucking Christ, why does everyone on this site approach threads like they are some sort of competition? Doesn't anyone on here discuss things for the sake of discussing them?

And as for your point, see my post on vertical farming.

 

[jon_berzerk]

If you care so much about the animals, why do you eat their food?

Well, for one thing, I'm not going out into their land and taking their food. Farmland is for human food.

Not originally. Here in western KY there were herds of bison that lived on the land that is now farm land. It was open prairie. I do believe you have painted yourself into a corner there. All farm land in the US is land where animals once lived and fed.

out here

one of the places that we know where Lewis and Clark stood

is a unusual hill today it is called spirit mound

in their diaries they write about going to the hill

that day from that hill they counted over 800 buffalo and elk

On the Lewis and Clark Trail

 

[9thIDdoc]

Of course hunters hunt for food.

Oh sure, there's no enjoyment in it at all, huh?

And I notice you avoided the issue of killing by proxy. Hypocrite, know thyself.

A) I'm a vegetarian.

B) The animals in slaughterhouses were bred to be food. Some of the domesticated livestock we have couldn't even survive without man. While I have no desire to eat meat, I can accept store bought meat because the animals killed in the process were specifically there for that purpose.

I could accept traditional hunting as well, if environments were not manipulated to their detriment to support it. This isn't about killing animals; it's about destroying natural ecosystems for the perceived benefit of mankind.

If you understood more about ecosystems you would understand that deer and cattle are at exactly the same place in the food chain and that man may play much the same role as the wolf in an ecosystem. Man's major detrimental impact on ecosystems is about land use that excludes critters. Very few wild animals can make their home in a shopping ctr. or it's parking lot. Hunters aren't to blame for that.

 

[DarkLion]

If you understood more about ecosystems you would understand that deer and cattle are at exactly the same place in the food chain and that man may play much the same role as the wolf in an ecosystem. Man's major detrimental impact on ecosystems is about land use that excludes critters. Very few wild animals can make their home in a shopping ctr. or it's parking lot. Hunters aren't to blame for that.

Ugh, there's so much wrong with the first part of your post I'm not even going to try to dissect it, because I don't know where to begin. I'll focus on the latter half and agree with you that the worst impact people have on ecosystems is indeed land use, development etc.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If you understood more about ecosystems you would understand that deer and cattle are at exactly the same place in the food chain and that man may play much the same role as the wolf in an ecosystem. Man's major detrimental impact on ecosystems is about land use that excludes critters. Very few wild animals can make their home in a shopping ctr. or it's parking lot. Hunters aren't to blame for that.

Ugh, there's so much wrong with the first part of your post I'm not even going to try to dissect it, because I don't know where to begin. I'll focus on the latter half and agree with you that the worst impact people have on ecosystems is indeed land use, development etc.

What specifically was wrong with the "first part" of what he stated?


For a person whining about folks not debating, you sure missed a good chance.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Yuk. My mother cooked a possum once for my brother. I was VERY young, but I recall it was really greasy.

Disgusting. But it couldn't be any worse than squirrel, my dad used to hunt and eat them. I tried it once, and it was nothing but gristle and very stringy. No thanks.

You probably tried fox squirrel. Gray squirrels are much tastier.

 

[PaulS1950]

In my state the majority of hunters don't get their deer, elk or whatever. People aren't very good hunters most of the time. An animal can hear, smell and see you long before you see them. Thousands of generations have survived because those that don't survive are eaten by predators. No wild animal dies of "old age". They stay alive by avoiding death. Their whole nature is tuned to being faster and more aware of their surroundings than the next one. Wolves single out a single animal - usually a weak animal and then run it to exhaustion. That may take hours or even days. Once a hunter is capable of finding an animal it is dead within minutes - if not immediately. Hunting is not in-humane or wasteful. I have let more deer walk away than I have killed. It is a "spiritual" event for me. The animal I kill has to "let me know" that it is ready to be food for my table. I thank the spirit of the animal for providing me and my family with life. I do this after the kill, as I am cooking it, and when we say grace before the meal. I do this for all the food we eat but it is more important to me when I see the animal is giving its life for me.

The thrill in hunting is not the killing, not even the hunt itself but rather the connection to nature that I have when I am outdoors in the wild.

BTW: there have only been two animals on the north American continent that regularly hunt man for food. The first is the polar bear and the second was the California Grizzly Bear. The Grizzly was taught to hunt people after the San Fransisco earthquake. They had no place to bury all the dead so they deposited the bodies in the mountains. The bear found out that humans were quick and easy meals.

There are more people killed by deer in the lower 48 than by any other species.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

In my state the majority of hunters don't get their deer, elk or whatever. People aren't very good hunters most of the time. An animal can hear, smell and see you long before you see them. Thousands of generations have survived because those that don't survive are eaten by predators. No wild animal dies of "old age". They stay alive by avoiding death. Their whole nature is tuned to being faster and more aware of their surroundings than the next one. Wolves single out a single animal - usually a weak animal and then run it to exhaustion. That may take hours or even days. Once a hunter is capable of finding an animal it is dead within minutes - if not immediately. Hunting is not in-humane or wasteful. I have let more deer walk away than I have killed. It is a "spiritual" event for me. The animal I kill has to "let me know" that it is ready to be food for my table. I thank the spirit of the animal for providing me and my family with life. I do this after the kill, as I am cooking it, and when we say grace before the meal. I do this for all the food we eat but it is more important to me when I see the animal is giving its life for me.

The thrill in hunting is not the killing, not even the hunt itself but rather the connection to nature that I have when I am outdoors in the wild.

BTW: there have only been two animals on the north American continent that regularly hunt man for food. The first is the polar bear and the second was the California Grizzly Bear. The Grizzly was taught to hunt people after the San Fransisco earthquake. They had no place to bury all the dead so they deposited the bodies in the mountains. The bear found out that humans were quick and easy meals.

There are more people killed by deer in the lower 48 than by any other species.

Yes they do die of old age, just not in the human context. When they get old they lose many of the abilities they need to survive, speed being a major one.

 

[PaulS1950]

Yes they do die of old age, just not in the human context. When they get old they lose many of the abilities they need to survive, speed being a major one.

They die a violent death at the teeth, claw, and beaks of predators and scavengers. They don't lie down in a field of clover and calmly pass on. They get old and are killed by other animals. Their lives are an every day challenge to stay alive or be eaten. They all eventually lose that challenge - that is what they live for. They are food for others just as they feed on other things.

WE are all alike. We all kill to survive. I for one would rather be closely connected to where my food comes from than go to the market and buy meat that has been raised on hormones and antibiotics and fed chemicals and supplements with their food. I have been harvesting strawberries, squash and tomatoes from my garden for weeks now and the cantelope are getting big and ripe. They will soon be harvested too. Being connected to your food gives you a greater respect for it - you should try it.

 

[DarkLion]

What specifically was wrong with the "first part" of what he stated?


For a person whining about folks not debating, you sure missed a good chance.

A) It says deer and cattle are in the same place in "an" ecosystem. Cattle are not part of the same ecosystems that are being disrupted for hunting and livestock. In fact, one could make the argument that the presence of cattle is harming the ecosystem of the deer.

B) Even if cattle were a part of the ecosystem man most certainly does not play the same role as wolves.

There is more, but I really don't feel like picking it apart further.