CDZ How We Will Finally Deal With Guns America

[Taz]

Ok, so you guys are cherry picking your outrage. How lame.

At what point did you think I am outraged ...

When I stated what is written in the Constitution ...
When I indicated that violations of the Constitution do not justify further violation ...
Or when I indicated the opposition has nothing to offer as a compromise and there is no reason we should entertain their ignorance?

I think you are trying to see outrage that doesn't exist ...

.

Original dude was bent out of shape, cherry picking style.

 

[Pogo]

No..."shall not be infringed:

No "Well Regulated"

See, I can cherry pick rights to.

Now lets take a look at what the Supreme Court decided about your "rights".

On pp. 54 and 55, the majority opinion, written by conservative bastion Justice Antonin Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”

“Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller (an earlier case) said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time”. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

The court even recognizes a long-standing judicial precedent “…to consider… prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons.”

The English langue is important ... Things like commas mean things.

Leaving aside how important the "English langue" is, any literate reader would have to conclude that in the case of this document language, particularly given the passage of 240 years, commas don't necessarily mean things, I don't care what Gertrude Stein says.

I'm far more interested in the subordinate clause that opens the whole thing up. Because it's a basis of reasoning given where no basis of reasoning is needed (and which appears nowhere else in any Amendment). That begs the question of what its function is.

Bottom line (comma) commas or no commas, the 2A is a grammatical train wreck. And that matters because it makes the intent inscrutably vague.

No "Well Regulated"

See, I can cherry pick rights to.

Now lets take a look at what the Supreme Court decided about your "rights".

On pp. 54 and 55, the majority opinion, written by conservative bastion Justice Antonin Scalia, states: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”

“Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller (an earlier case) said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time”. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

The court even recognizes a long-standing judicial precedent “…to consider… prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons.”

The English langue is important ... Things like commas mean things.

Leaving aside how important the "English langue" is, any literate reader would have to conclude that in the case of this document language, particularly given the passage of 240 years, commas don't necessarily mean things, I don't care what Gertrude Stein says.

I'm far more interested in the subordinate clause that opens the whole thing up. Because it's a basis of reasoning given where no basis of reasoning is needed (and which appears nowhere else in any Amendment). That begs the question of what its function is.

Bottom line (comma) commas or no commas, the 2A is a grammatical train wreck. And that matters because it makes the intent inscrutably vague.

No, it isn't. It is as clear as a bell. The fact that you choose to ignore the common meaning of the English language at the time is on you.

It's hardly the first time I've brought this up but --- care to have a go at explaining what the purpose of that clause is?

Again, no other Amendment makes an argument for its existence. Nor does any need to; a Constitution is a simple declaration of "this is how we will roll". No explanation is necessary. Yet there's the 2A, all by itself, explaining its reasoning. Why would it do that?

To stop people like the OP cold.

You're not gonna confiscate arms in America, leftist. You're not Hitler, and we're not the Jews of Germany.

No shit. That's what I've been saying since literally the day I got here including this thread. Has nothing to do with "Jews" or "Germany", it's simple observation.

 

[miketx]

It would start with the prohibition of the manufacture and sale of any assault style carbine rifle, and high capacity magazines for rifles or pistols.

Then you pass a law requiring anyone that currently owns any assault style carbine rifles and high capacity magazines for rifles and pistols to be registered. You give everyone 1 year to do it. After that i year grace period, it is now a felony up to 10 years in prison if you get caught with one unregistered.

This allows you pass them on to family after your death, provided those family members can legally register them in their name.

Then the resale of any weapon must be done through a back ground check at the local sheriffs department, where the sale is conducted, or through a licensed dealer that records the sale.

This would take a time frame of about 10 years, before this gun regulation would either have these weapons confiscated and destroyed, hundreds of thousands of people either now in prison, or no longer able to own any gun, and what is left of these rifles and magazines now under wraps by private owners that cannot transfer them to anyone else without facing stiff mandatory sentencing.

It's just that simple.

Of course the whining and crying be vomit worthy for a while. It is much more easy to stomach than the crying of mothers and fathers at their childrens funerals.

The government has already provided you with a gun free school zone so no shooting can happen in school. That should be enough for you, as well as the law the government has provided for you making murder illegal so no murders can happen.

 

[harmonica]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

 

[miketx]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

I can deny it. Bombs are easy to make. All you need is fertilizer and diesel fuel.

 

[skews13]

It would start with the prohibition of the manufacture and sale of any assault style carbine rifle, and high capacity magazines for rifles or pistols.

Then you pass a law requiring anyone that currently owns any assault style carbine rifles and high capacity magazines for rifles and pistols to be registered. You give everyone 1 year to do it. After that i year grace period, it is now a felony up to 10 years in prison if you get caught with one unregistered.

This allows you pass them on to family after your death, provided those family members can legally register them in their name.

Then the resale of any weapon must be done through a back ground check at the local sheriffs department, where the sale is conducted, or through a licensed dealer that records the sale.

This would take a time frame of about 10 years, before this gun regulation would either have these weapons confiscated and destroyed, hundreds of thousands of people either now in prison, or no longer able to own any gun, and what is left of these rifles and magazines now under wraps by private owners that cannot transfer them to anyone else without facing stiff mandatory sentencing.

It's just that simple.

Of course the whining and crying be vomit worthy for a while. It is much more easy to stomach than the crying of mothers and fathers at their childrens funerals.

The government has already provided you with a gun free school zone so no shooting can happen in school. That should be enough for you, as well as the law the government has provided for you making murder illegal so no murders can happen.

The Supreme court has already given Congress and all 50 states the power to do everything I posted.

Article one gives Congress all legislative powers.

Your gun rights can be regulated with impunity.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

 

[harmonica]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

I can deny it. Bombs are easy to make. All you need is fertilizer and diesel fuel.

no wrong--I said it would not have been as easy---
you just buy a gun--with a bomb--you have to buy the materials and then construct it---then set it to go off
the Columbine bombs did not go off !!
no--come on Mike--it's much more difficult to kill as many as fast---it can be done--but it takes much more effort as we see in the Oklahoma bombing

McVeigh and Nichols purchased or stole the materials they needed to manufacture the bomb, which they stored in rented sheds. In August 1994, McVeigh obtained nine Kinestiks from gun collector Roger E. Moore, and ignited the devices with Nichols outside Nichols' home in Herington, Kansas.[34][35] On September 30, 1994, Nichols bought forty 50-pound (23 kg) bags of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from Mid-Kansas Coop in McPherson, Kansas, enough to fertilize 12.5 acres (5.1 hectares) of farmland at a rate of 160 pounds (73 kg) of nitrogen per acre (.40 ha), an amount commonly used for corn. Nichols bought an additional 50-pound (23 kg) bag on October 18, 1994

McVeigh rented a storage space

McVeigh then added a dual-fuse ignition system accessible from the truck's front cab. He drilled two holes in the cab of the truck under the seat, while two holes were also drilled in the body of the truck

etc etc etc etc --it took a looooong time just to get the materials
no--not even close
Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia
even building a smaller bomb also

 

[harmonica]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

I said not just as easily----
if it's so easy--how come they don't use trucks here in the US for mass murders as much?
it's mostly guns--because they are easy

you can't drive a car through school hallways
it's much harder to get a semi
etc
it's not even close
9-11--sure--not even close to the topic
you are not even close

please --show many how many murders are committed by guns vs cars/trucks/etc
you can even include other countries...

 

[miketx]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

I said not just as easily----
if it's so easy--how come they don't use trucks here in the US for mass murders as much?
it's mostly guns--because they are easy

you can't drive a car through school hallways
it's much harder to get a semi
etc
it's not even close
9-11--sure--not even close to the topic
you are not even close

please --show many how many murders are committed by guns vs cars/trucks/etc
you can even include other countries...

Asking for information you will surely deny is a classic move.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

I can deny it. Bombs are easy to make. All you need is fertilizer and diesel fuel.

no wrong--I said it would not have been as easy---
you just buy a gun--with a bomb--you have to buy the materials and then construct it---then set it to go off
the Columbine bombs did not go off !!
no--come on Mike--it's much more difficult to kill as many as fast---it can be done--but it takes much more effort as we see in the Oklahoma bombing

McVeigh and Nichols purchased or stole the materials they needed to manufacture the bomb, which they stored in rented sheds. In August 1994, McVeigh obtained nine Kinestiks from gun collector Roger E. Moore, and ignited the devices with Nichols outside Nichols' home in Herington, Kansas.[34][35] On September 30, 1994, Nichols bought forty 50-pound (23 kg) bags of ammonium nitrate fertilizer from Mid-Kansas Coop in McPherson, Kansas, enough to fertilize 12.5 acres (5.1 hectares) of farmland at a rate of 160 pounds (73 kg) of nitrogen per acre (.40 ha), an amount commonly used for corn. Nichols bought an additional 50-pound (23 kg) bag on October 18, 1994

McVeigh rented a storage space

McVeigh then added a dual-fuse ignition system accessible from the truck's front cab. He drilled two holes in the cab of the truck under the seat, while two holes were also drilled in the body of the truck

etc etc etc etc --it took a looooong time just to get the materials
no--not even close
Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia
even building a smaller bomb also

you just buy a gun

Hah! Liberal Reporter Tries to Buy AR15 – GETS DENIED FOR VIOLENT PAST

I had trouble even figuring out whether bringing an assault rifle into Chicago is legal. The Internet was contradictory. The Chicago corporation counsel’s office punted me on to that black hole of silence, Bill McCaffrey. I found that Illinois has a 24-hour waiting period between buying and taking possession of a gun. Unearthing that fact alone made the exercise seem worthwhile. I was learning something.

Now like the good little liberal that you are, shove that cranium full of mush farther up Uranus.

 

[harmonica]

It's so simple even you could do it.

hahahahah
obviously you are wrong--per the Oklahoma City bombing--it is far more complex than using a gun
this is just the facts --truth--you know it--everyone with half a brain knows it
the Oki bomb was super complex vs pulling a trigger

 

[harmonica]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

I said not just as easily----
if it's so easy--how come they don't use trucks here in the US for mass murders as much?
it's mostly guns--because they are easy

you can't drive a car through school hallways
it's much harder to get a semi
etc
it's not even close
9-11--sure--not even close to the topic
you are not even close

please --show many how many murders are committed by guns vs cars/trucks/etc
you can even include other countries...

Asking for information you will surely deny is a classic move.

you and I already know the answer

 

[miketx]

It's so simple even you could do it.

hahahahah
obviously you are wrong--per the Oklahoma City bombing--it is far more complex than using a gun
this is just the facts --truth--you know it--everyone with half a brain knows it
the Oki bomb was super complex vs pulling a trigger

No it was simple. Just mix up some fertilizer and some gas. Nothing to it.

 

[harmonica]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

you bring up France--France's murder rate is over TWO times lower than the US
what do you have to say to that??

 

[Pogo]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

The difference is that bombs are efficient for destroying things and, if people are present, killing/injuring masses of people all at once. That may be what the terrorist or the army is after but it's not what the mass shooter is after. He's not out to murder specific people because of who they are; he's out to shoot people just because they're targets. He's out for sensory feedback, one at a time, the power-drug of watching helpless people run for their lives. That's why he uses the instrument he does.

A Tim McVeigh doesn't get that sensory feedback. He doesn't even see his thing go down -- he probably hears in the distance it to confirm, but at that point his objective is getting away. He was out to destroy the place, not get the sensory feedback of watching people suffer. So it's two different actions for two different objectives. The fact that they both amount to murder doesn't make them emanate from the same motivation.

And that's why the instrument of choice for the mass shooter is the firearm. It provides that sensory feedback like nothing else.

The Columbine shooters are a perfect example. If you watch and listen to the videos you can hear them yelping in sick glee, FROM that sensory feedback, as if they were cheering a sports event.

 

[miketx]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

you bring up France--France's murder rate is over TWO times lower than the US
what do you have to say to that??

I say if you cut out chicago and the shitholes in california and the upper eastern US, and then considering we have shitload more people then the francers do, I'd say it's less.

 

[miketx]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

The difference is that bombs are efficient for destroying things and, if people are present, killing/injuring masses of people all at once. That may be what the terrorist or the army is after but it's not what the mass shooter is after. He's not out to murder specific people because of who they are; he's out to shoot people just because they're targets. He's out for sensory feedback, one at a time, the power-drug of watching helpless people run for their lives. That's why he uses the instrument he does.

A Tim McVeigh doesn't get that sensory feedback. He doesn't even see his thing go down -- he probably hears in the distance it to confirm, but at that point his objective is getting away. He was out to destroy the place, not get the sensory feedback of watching people suffer. So it's two different actions for two different objectives. The fact that they both amount to murder doesn't make them emanate from the same motivation.

And that's why the instrument of choice for the mass shooter is the firearm. It provides that sensory feedback like nothing else.

Thank you for that expert opinion. How many little boys and girls have to gotten the feedback on?

 

[boedicca]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

85 deaths caused by a guy in a truck mowing down pedestrians, so your strawman is burning, bub.

Death toll rises to 85 in Bastille Day attack in Nice - CNN

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

you can't buy alcohol till 21...if that was the case here---no one would've died
he could've used a bomb--but much much harder to build, and activate

How do you know that? What is to keep the 19 year old who has a drivers license from plowing his car into the crowd of kids as they get out of the building? Stupid is as stupid votes and they vote Democrat...

there it is again
NO--he could have not just as EASILY--used a car/bomb/etc---it is much HARDER/difficult to kill as many --as FAST--with a car/bomb/etc
--you can't hide a car----you can only use it in certain areas--obviously you can't drive the car through the classrooms
the Columbine killers used bombs--and they didn't go off!!!

sure --people have used bombs in the US to murder--but how many times??? 1--2 -10?
--because they are more difficult to make/use/etc !!!! you can't deny this

Really?

you bring up France--France's murder rate is over TWO times lower than the US
what do you have to say to that??

you bring up France--France's murder rate is over TWO times lower than the US

For a place that has banned all guns, being 50 percent less murder rate, seems like your argument just screwed up.