How Tom Daschle Might Kill Conservatism

[PeterS]

That's just the way it is. Here's a quote that applies to your post:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Benjamin Franklin

The the R&D for the vaccines I received as a child and greatly increased the probability I would live to adulthood were funded by government. I went to schools paid for by government and had by undergraduate and graduate degrees largely financed by government. My first business loan and home loan were courtesy of government. The roads I drive on, ship my goods and services on, are there due to government. The financial system that has enriched me is protected and guaranteed by government. My family didn't have to go into bankruptcy when my aged mother died from a prolonged and very costly illness because of government. I am communicating to you now based on R&D originally picked up by government.

Now tell me, would Franklin say I have gained or given up my liberty?

 

[xsited1]

The the R&D for the vaccines I received as a child and greatly increased the probability I would live to adulthood were funded by government. I went to schools paid for by government and had by undergraduate and graduate degrees largely financed by government. My first business loan and home loan were courtesy of government. The roads I drive on, ship my goods and services on, are there due to government. The financial system that has enriched me is protected and guaranteed by government. My family didn't have to go into bankruptcy when my aged mother died from a prolonged and very costly illness because of government. I am communicating to you now based on R&D originally picked up by government.

Now tell me, would Franklin say I have gained or given up my liberty?

Franklin would say that you don't deserve liberty. There are some things the government should be responsible for (like police, fire departments, military) and others that should be taken care of by private citizens. I don't respect you less for your beliefs. I just don't share them.

 

[editec]

I rather doubt any of us here are qualified to speak for Ben Franklin.

FYI Ben initiated GOVERNMENT create public fire departments, public libraries, public schools and the US postal system.

After he invented the lightening rod he REFUSED TO PATENT IT, too.

Why?

Because he knew if he did while he would become fabulously wealthy, the COMMONWEAL (meaning not only the US, but the whole damned civilized world) would suffer by not having immediate access to that invention.

Franklin sure in hell sounds like someone who understood that governments were useful tools, and that the COMMONWEAL supported us all.

Oh, and since we like to cherry pick quotations to support our opinions about government and freedom?

Let me give you a quote that I think pretty much explains why some of us are sanguine with government and don't think of taxation as slavery, either.


"Individuals entering into society, must give up a share of liberty to preserve the rest"

Goerge Washington (written in a letter of trasnmittal to Congress 1789)

 

[DavidS]

They aren't truly free. Freedom is something some people eventually take for granted. They trade freedom for government handouts.

So what is your version of freedom? Anarchy?

 

[Old Rocks]

I rather doubt any of us here are qualified to speak for Ben Franklin.

FYI Ben initiated GOVERNMENT create public fire departments, public libraries, public schools and the US postal system.

After he invented the lightening rod he REFUSED TO PATENT IT, too.

Why?

Because he knew if he did while he would become fabulously wealthy, the COMMONWEAL (meaning not only the US, but the whole damned civilized world) would suffer by not having immediate access to that invention.

Franklin sure in hell sounds like someone who understood that governments were useful tools, and that the COMMONWEAL supported us all.

Oh, and since we like to cherry pick quotations to support our opinions about government and freedom?

Let me give you a quote that I think pretty much explains why some of us are sanguine with government and don't think of taxation as slavery, either.


"Individuals entering into society, must give up a share of liberty to preserve the rest"

Goerge Washington (written in a letter of trasnmittal to Congress 1789)

The ideology pushed by the present day neo-cons seems to be that anything a government does for you must first be ran through a corperation such as Haliburton so that the very wealthy can first take what they assume to be their fair share. The fact that what they are doing is creating socialism of the wealthy seems not to bother them at all. It is the situation with the CEOs that seem to think that they deserve multi-million dollar salaries and bonuses for failure.

Their, the neo-cons, objection to a real healthcare system is that it might have better results for half the cost, the same as we see in the other industrial nations. And they could not dip into the system and take some spoils.

 

[bk1983]

There was nothing to correct since I also said 'neoconservative movement'. Just reread my original post.

Of course I was opposed to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. If you had read my original post, that would have been obvious so you.

No, I did correct you rightfully so, because you said neocons and democrats.

When republicans have pushed big government just as much as anybody.

So nice try, this election the people chose Democrats over Republicans

there was no neocon party on the ballot. So although you say your anti

big government you do not hold the party accountable that enlarged the

govt in this country for the past 8 years.

 

[DiveCon]

There was nothing to correct since I also said 'neoconservative movement'. Just reread my original post.

Of course I was opposed to the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. If you had read my original post, that would have been obvious so you.

most conservatives were

 

[xsited1]

most conservatives were

Yep. As I recall, it was the Neoconservatives and the Democrats (yes, the Democrats) who pushed for the Department of Homeland Security. Now Democrats are acting like they had nothing to do with it.

 

[xsited1]

No, I did correct you rightfully so, because you said neocons and democrats.

When republicans have pushed big government just as much as anybody.

So nice try, this election the people chose Democrats over Republicans

there was no neocon party on the ballot. So although you say your anti

big government you do not hold the party accountable that enlarged the

govt in this country for the past 8 years.

Wow, you missed my point entirely and you somehow do not believe I hold the Republican party accountable. Are you just being a troll?

 

[bk1983]

Wow, you missed my point entirely and you somehow do not believe I hold the Republican party accountable. Are you just being a troll?

I believe it because your actions prove it, I see you denouncing Democrats

for actions I have seen the republicans commit just as much. When you say

neocons and democrats that is only holding 1 party accountable, their is no

neocon party. No matter what you call them they represent the republican

party. What if I said big govt was only the fault of radical leftist and the

republicans, would you consider that holding democrats accountable? Or

am I just trying to cover the mistakes of my party by saying only the

"radicals" and not the party itself is at fault.

 

[DiveCon]

I believe it because your actions prove it, I see you denouncing Democrats

for actions I have seen the republicans commit just as much. When you say

neocons and democrats that is only holding 1 party accountable, their is no

neocon party. No matter what you call them they represent the republican

party. What if I said big govt was only the fault of radical leftist and the

republicans, would you consider that holding democrats accountable? Or

am I just trying to cover the mistakes of my party by saying only the

"radicals" and not the party itself is at fault.

ya see, thats what you miss
the neocons are NOT the radicals, they are moderate to LIBERAL
former democrats that didnt like how the left was taking the democrats on national security issues and the military

 

[bk1983]

ya see, thats what you miss
the neocons are NOT the radicals, they are moderate to LIBERAL
former democrats that didnt like how the left was taking the democrats on national security issues and the military

So who runs the republican party? Neocons or Conservatives?

What does the party respresent neocon or conservative beliefs?

The republican party must have been pretty weak to be taken over

and have their values stepped on like that.

 

[Ravi]

ya see, thats what you miss
the neocons are NOT the radicals, they are moderate to LIBERAL
former democrats that didnt like how the left was taking the democrats on national security issues and the military

Liberals aren't into nation building or forcing democracy on someone else.

But isn't revisionist history grand?

 

[DiveCon]

Liberals aren't into nation building or forcing democracy on someone else.

But isn't revisionist history grand?

yeah, cause Clinton wasnt doing that

you morons are fucking idiots

 

[Ravi]

you morons are fucking idiots

No, I stopped fucking idiots a long time ago.

I'm guessing your idiocy is keeping you from getting any.

 

[Ravi]

And btw, Clinton isn't a liberal.

 

[DiveCon]

No, I stopped fucking idiots a long time ago.

I'm guessing your idiocy is keeping you from getting any.

i get plenty
but i'm sure you get more

 

[DiveCon]

And btw, Clinton isn't a liberal.

yeah, right

more proof of you being a fucking moron

 

[CrimsonWhite]

yeah, right

more proof of you being a fucking moron

She's gotcha there. Socially, he is liberal, but politically he is more conservative than alot of Republicans. Calling Clinton a liberal just makes you look moronic.

Democrat does not equal liberal.

 

[DiveCon]

She's gotcha there. Socially, he is liberal, but politically he is more conservative than alot of Republicans. Calling Clinton a liberal just makes you look moronic.

Democrat does not equal liberal.

you gotta be kidding me
i never said democrat = liberal
but clinton was and IS a liberal