How much teachers get in each country

[Esmeralda]

Other countries send their students here to go to school. More and more to attend High School. And Republicans call them the worst schools in the world. Because they won't teach magical creation and alternate history. Worse, they despise critical thinking skills, believing children will start thinking for themselves. Children will stop listening to their pastor, Fox and their parents.

People from other countries, generally do not send their kids to go to US public K-12 schools, .....

Yes, they do when they can. This is increasing all the time.

Really. Who? From third world countries?

By sending their kids to K-12, I don't mean they move here, and work here, and send their kids to schools here. I know many who have done that.

But just to send their kids to the US, specifically for K-12 schooling? I'm open to the idea. I'd love to see the evidence for this.

What the rich people in foreign countries do is send their kids to English speaking private international schools with very often American curriculum and almost always, whether the curriculum is American, British or International, American teachers.

If the American school system is failing, it isn't your teachers, who teach droves in international schools around the world alongside British teachers and teachers from other English speaking countries; it is the totally messed up American society that is at fault. You all expect the teachers and the schools to fix all of society's ills. That's what you expect them to do, along with educating your kids. It's an impossible task.

 

[Esmeralda]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

Most teachers have a great deal of 'homework.' Preparation, reading, grading papers, etc. They work more than 8 hours a day on average.

Sorry but I linked a post that quoted the bureau of labor statistics saying that on average teachers work about 40 hours a week

They aren't accounting for all the hours of 'homework.'

 

[Skull Pilot]

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

Most teachers have a great deal of 'homework.' Preparation, reading, grading papers, etc. They work more than 8 hours a day on average.

Sorry but I linked a post that quoted the bureau of labor statistics saying that on average teachers work about 40 hours a week

They aren't accounting for all the hours of 'homework.'

That's up to you to prove with something other than your say so
BTW the BLS got their info from teachers it wasn't made up.

 

[jasonnfree]

Teachers - underpaid and under appreciated, since they're expected to work miracles. I say miracles, since a teacher has nothing to say about what goes on in a kid's life once he/she leaves for home every night. Do the parents take an interest in the kid's homework? Are there parents, or old granny trying to raise kids who were abandoned. Do they get good meals at home, or go to school hungry, and the list goes on. So pay teachers well I say, even if we have to buy fewer goodies from lockheed and raytheon to do it.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why don't you try it and see if you think it is so easy?

I have no desire to be a teacher but I know several and none of them work that hard maybe you're just not very good at it so it takes you longer

I doubt you know any real teachers, and i doubt that you keep account of their actual working hours.

The fact is that I actually work less than my colleagues because I am better organized and more experienced, but since you know nothing about the topic, it is impossible for you to understand.

Oh "real" teachers?

2 teach public high school chemistry, math and physics
The other teaches English at a private school

And believe me none of them work 60 hours a week and they have more time off than Obama

I'll bet! You probably are just pulling figures out of your ass from embarrassment at getting called on it.

I spend a minimum of 7-4 each day at work, 5 days a week. How many hours is that? It's 45 if you don't have a calculator handy. Add in about 5 hours grading papers on the weeknights and about 5-6 each weekend, and we are fast approaching 60 hours. E-mailing parents, attending required after school activities, and additional duties such as supervising students before school, and we are just about there.

BTW, just finished 3 hours of grading papers and it was a light evening.

Sorry if you're so slow but the bureau of labor statistics factored in slow people like you and the fact is teachers only work about 40 hours a week

Look it up you're a teacher so you should know how but I did post a link earlier if you can't

These are the same people who keep telling us unemployment is going down as business after business folds and others move to Mexico.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Yeah, it's a lot more than that.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

Most teachers have a great deal of 'homework.' Preparation, reading, grading papers, etc. They work more than 8 hours a day on average.

Sorry but I linked a post that quoted the bureau of labor statistics saying that on average teachers work about 40 hours a week

They aren't accounting for all the hours of 'homework.'

That's up to you to prove with something other than your say so
BTW the BLS got their info from teachers it wasn't made up.

Want to bet they used actual paid hours which is often less than 40 hours per week yet failed to include unpaid hours?

 

[Andylusion]

The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money. There is only two countries that pay more than we do. Netherlands and Canada.

This non-stop drum beat, that we need to shell out more money, is crazy.

The second thing to grasp, is that some of the lowest paid teachers, are producing the highest quality students. Finland, Estonia, Poland, all out perform US students by a wide margin, and yet are paid a fraction as much.

I wager Vietnam, and Taiwan are also paid a fraction as much, but are not on your list.

The third thing to grasp, is that most of these education systems, spend less time teaching than do our teachers.

I would suggest that it's not really because they are just so amazing, that they can teach in 4 hours, what our teachers take all day to teach.... but rather because they are not required to teach as much, other than the fundamentals.

What you fail to take into account is the complexity of US society. Schools and teachers put out far more effort, time, energy, etc., in dealing with social problems rather than focusing on actual academics. Finland, Estonia, Poland, Vietnam and Taiwan are small homogenous societies with few social problems and only one tier of governing for education. In comparison, the US is a huge, very diverse country with a myriad of social problems and several tiers of governing over educational policies and practices. There is simply no comparison. As well, the cost of living in the US is higher than most of the countries mentioned; salary should go along with cost of living.

Bottom line: you just do not know anything whatsoever about the real issues in American education.

Actually that was MY point. You are making MY point.

The entire debate, when you look at it from the mass media and government perspective, what do they focus on? Money. How many times every month do you hear "schools need more money", "Inner City school can't hire teachers because of money".... and on and on and on.

I've heard this argument a million times. In fact, the Panama Papers debate on one TV network, the argument was "Every dollar they avoid paying in tax, is a dollar less that goes to the schools".

My point to you, and everyone, is money isn't the problem. We spend more money than any other country in the world, on K-12 education. And we have lame results to show for it.

Your post, was dead on right. That's the problem.

"Schools and teachers put out far more effort, time, energy, etc., in dealing with social problems rather than focusing on actual academics"
That's the problem!

I was reading this report about how broken families, divorce, unwed mothers, and children who grow up with only one parents, routinely and consistently perform poorly in school.

Girls spread their legs for any idiot, then pop out a kid, and somehow we're supposed to fix their children? Can't be done. I told this to one lady, and she said "Well Finland has great schools, let's do what they do". The report about unwed, broken families having un-educatable kids... came from Finland.

When a problem child shows up in Finland... they remove them. Place them in special lower classes for problem kids.

You think that will play well in US politics? Let's have Donald Trump say "I have a plan to remove hundreds of thousands of problem children from US schools, and place them in remedial classes"... and watch the **** Storm follow.

My mother had such a child actually. She came from a broken, shack up, single welfare mother. Her mother told her this when she came in for "parent teacher conferences". She couldn't do ANYTHING with this girl. She sent her to the principals office every week. Finally she had the child removed from her class.

The only thing I would add to your comment, is that teachers also spend too much time teaching about unimportant trivial things. Save the pandas. Save the whales. Protect the Ozone layer.

When I was in elementary school, we had a month long project, on protecting the Ozone layer. Somewhere at my parents home, is a video of me, doing a report on protecting the ozone layer, at my mothers school. I went to her class, and did a presentation on protecting the ozone layer.

Let me ask you.... what value did that have on my life? How much of that was useful to me in adulthood? Nothing. Complete waste of time. The only thing I got out of it, was an example of why public education sucks. Instead of learning math, science, technology, even basic writing ability..... I learned that if we didn't stop using air conditioners, the ozone layer would "die" and the sun would fry us all to bacon. And there's a video of me wasting the time of a bunch of 4th graders with this nonsense.

Why do we waste our students time with black history month? Then we wonder why they can barely read, can't write, and can't use a calculator, and yet hate white people. Gee, why are our students not scoring high compared to the rest of the world. I wonder.

 

[Andylusion]

And better yet, if the teacher is bad, there is almost nothing the principal can do. School principals today, have about as much power as a prison warden, where the prison is owned and operated by the inmates, and every convict has both the keys and the locks to every room.

I was reading about Finland, and the one thing the Finnish school people THEMSELVES were complaining about, was the teachers Unions. They were talking about teachers who showed up in the class room, completely plastered. Drunk out of their minds, and the school administration couldn't do much except require the teacher sign up for classes for alcoholics, but couldn't even require that they show up for the classes. They could come to work drunk for 10 years, before the union contracts and control on administration allowed them to be removed.

Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job

You'd be dead inside a week. Come on and give it a try! I dare you!

^^^^this

I doubt that I've worked real jobs for 80 or 90 hours a week

If teaching took as much skill as you say you'd all be paid a hell of a lot more

Why don't you try it and see if you think it is so easy?

Exactly. Most people don't want to teach because it is NOT well paid, NOT easy, and teachers in the US get no respect or appreciation for what they do.

It is paid well. Finland Teachers earn less, even compared with cost of living, to US teachers. In fact, most countries pay their teachers less.

Yeah, it's not easy. But what job worth doing, is easy? Where's that job?

Respect, that's an issue of society. My parents had high respect for teachers, and so did I. But when you teach people they are "entitled" to an education.... that's what you get. I was never taught that I was owed and education.

When you see these idiot students at OWS walking around screaming about their "right to an education", when you see the riots in the UK, with all the students demanding their "rights" to an education.... that attitude didn't start their Senior year in high school. That started decades ago, when they were in K-12.

Free stuff is never appreciated. You don't respect, that which costs nothing. The girl who puts out to every guy, is respected by no guy. That's why you don't see that attitude in private schools. Parents who are paying money out of their pocket, to have their kids go to a good school, are not walking around with an entitlement, "I'm owed this" attitude.

The labeling of education as a fundamental right... and the attitude of zero respect for the people who provide education, are tied together.

 

[Andylusion]

Finland is not a good example. With the terrible climate and the extremely short winter days, alcoholism is endemic.

I'm confused by that response. Are you suggesting that having the climate, and winter days, means that you would have no problem with your child NOT being taught because their teacher was in a drunken alcoholic stupor in the classroom?

Would you have the breaks on your car fixed by a drunken alcoholic mechanic in a stupor? Would you trust a drunken alcoholic doctor to operate on you?

Would you accept that, if the Doctors Unions, prevented you from refusing to be operated by a doctor, clearly intoxicated, and barely able to stand?

It's always funny when people try and defend something, that if the positions were reversed, they would never tolerate.

We know what Republicans think of teachers. That we have too many.

I'm not a Republican. And I didn't vote for Mitt Romney. And I think he's right. Having more teachers, just to have more teachers, doesn't mean anything. That's more left-wing forest Gump level thinking.

I've had several bad teachers in my life. Really bad. Even in good schools, there are crappy useless teachers, that thanks to Unions, can't be removed.

This moronic idea that just having more teachers, means we'll have more education, is not true. That's the argument level of a parrot. Someone said it, so I'll repeat it, and therefore it must be true.

The fact you are even thinking, or I should say not thinking... is proof our public education system is a failure.

This is like Cuba, and doctors. Cuba has more "doctors" than most countries in the world. But their hospitals are terrible, their lack of medication is acute, and the average Cuba get's more help from charity, than the official government health system. But... they have doctors. More doctors magically equals better, in left-wing land.

 

[Esmeralda]

You'd be dead inside a week. Come on and give it a try! I dare you!

^^^^this

I doubt that I've worked real jobs for 80 or 90 hours a week

If teaching took as much skill as you say you'd all be paid a hell of a lot more

Why don't you try it and see if you think it is so easy?

Exactly. Most people don't want to teach because it is NOT well paid, NOT easy, and teachers in the US get no respect or appreciation for what they do.

It is paid well. Finland Teachers earn less, even compared with cost of living, to US teachers. In fact, most countries pay their teachers less.

Yeah, it's not easy. But what job worth doing, is easy? Where's that job?

Respect, that's an issue of society. My parents had high respect for teachers, and so did I. But when you teach people they are "entitled" to an education.... that's what you get. I was never taught that I was owed and education.

When you see these idiot students at OWS walking around screaming about their "right to an education", when you see the riots in the UK, with all the students demanding their "rights" to an education.... that attitude didn't start their Senior year in high school. That started decades ago, when they were in K-12.

Free stuff is never appreciated. You don't respect, that which costs nothing. The girl who puts out to every guy, is respected by no guy. That's why you don't see that attitude in private schools. Parents who are paying money out of their pocket, to have their kids go to a good school, are not walking around with an entitlement, "I'm owed this" attitude.

The labeling of education as a fundamental right... and the attitude of zero respect for the people who provide education, are tied together.

Education is a fundamental right, just as is health care and public safety. Do you want a country that is full of millions upon millions of ignorant, uneducated people -- illiterates? Do you want this to be a third world country?

Everyone needs to be educated, not just for themselves but for the country and society in general. Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to spend some real time in a 3rd world country where there is no national education system.

 

[Andylusion]

^^^^this

I doubt that I've worked real jobs for 80 or 90 hours a week

If teaching took as much skill as you say you'd all be paid a hell of a lot more

Why don't you try it and see if you think it is so easy?

Exactly. Most people don't want to teach because it is NOT well paid, NOT easy, and teachers in the US get no respect or appreciation for what they do.

It is paid well. Finland Teachers earn less, even compared with cost of living, to US teachers. In fact, most countries pay their teachers less.

Yeah, it's not easy. But what job worth doing, is easy? Where's that job?

Respect, that's an issue of society. My parents had high respect for teachers, and so did I. But when you teach people they are "entitled" to an education.... that's what you get. I was never taught that I was owed and education.

When you see these idiot students at OWS walking around screaming about their "right to an education", when you see the riots in the UK, with all the students demanding their "rights" to an education.... that attitude didn't start their Senior year in high school. That started decades ago, when they were in K-12.

Free stuff is never appreciated. You don't respect, that which costs nothing. The girl who puts out to every guy, is respected by no guy. That's why you don't see that attitude in private schools. Parents who are paying money out of their pocket, to have their kids go to a good school, are not walking around with an entitlement, "I'm owed this" attitude.

The labeling of education as a fundamental right... and the attitude of zero respect for the people who provide education, are tied together.

Education is a fundamental right, just as is health care and public safety. Do you want a country that is full of millions upon millions of ignorant, uneducated people -- illiterates? Do you want this to be a third world country?

Everyone needs to be educated, not just for themselves but for the country and society in general. Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to spend some real time in a 3rd world country where there is no national education system.

Well we have this "right" right now, and yet we have people who can't read or write, or do basic math. So whether you think it is, or is not, doesn't seem to matter does it?

The fact is, we've operated under this concept for a long time, and if you look at the education outcomes, they suck. One of the reasons why educational standards in the US have fallen dramatically, is because students have the entitlement mentality, and yet you can't teach someone just because they think they are entitled. So you have to lower standards, to create the illusion that the "right to education" is given.

And by the way, many of the countries that have way better schools system, do not operate under a theory that education is a "right".

Again, take Finland for example. If you don't make the grade.... you don't get education anymore. You don't even go to high school, let alone college, if you don't work for it.

High schools have an entrance exam in Finland, like many other countries. And if you don't pass the entrance exam... you don't go to high school.

Well what about their rights!! What about my "Right to an education!"?? You lost it. You don't have a right. You have the opportunity to pursue an education. Sure. We all do. But if you fail... you are left behind.

See, what you want is a system where people try as hard as they can, when there are no consequences to not doing so. And that isn't how human beings work. People put in effort, when they have to. In a system without consequences, because "education is a right", the result is people don't try. They don't take it seriously.

Let me give you an example. I went to an upper middle class school system. One of the guys in my class, was actually a fairly intelligent person, but you would never know it from his grades. We kept asking him what the deal was, and he told all of us very openly that he intentionally wanted to try and get exactly a 65% GPA. And he did. Right on the dot.

He goofed off. Skipped class. Turned in, and answered exactly as many questions as required to pass. He did the same thing in high school. I wager he did the same thing in college. By the way, I heard through the grape vine, that he now works for the ACLU, which makes sense given he was the biggest left-winger I ever met in person. Clearly ideology trumps grades and knowledge at the ACLU. Or maybe he wised up in College, and actually made something of himself. Who knows.

What's my point? He knew nothing would happen due to his lazy behavior. That's what "education is a right" mentality causes. That doesn't happen in Finland. Or in private schools here. Why? Because if you don't make the grade, you are out. You don't go to high school. You don't go to college. This guy would have never survived in Finland. Or he would... because he would have tried in a system where education wasn't a right, and there are consequences to not trying.

I used to visit a private school here in Ohio, and I can tell you, that mentality didn't cut it there. If you didn't work, you were gone. There was not "right to education" mentality at the private schools, which again, is exactly why they routinely destroy the public schools academically.

So, while it may seem a good argument that "oh if we didn't' have a right to education, we'd have uneducated people".... well we have a right to education, and we have horribly uneducated people.

If people knew they were not entitled to education, and simply would not get it, if they didn't earn it... I think we'd have far fewer uneducated people, and more people taking learning seriously.

 

[baileyn45]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

My alma mater spent 1.6 million on a renovation, in Ohio. I'm told it's close to paying for itself. It seats 8000, has room for 2000 standing and has hosted nationally televised high school games. I've even heard they get TV revenue. In addition to football they've had regionally televised lacrosse and soccer games. The feild is the home feild for the high school as well as a nearby catholic high school and is also used for high school/college level lacrosse, soccer, feild hockey and track & feild events. And as you can see the baseball feild ain't bad either. I know a couple of years ago they bragged that they had over 300 seperate events, during football playoffs 2 & 3 games a day with sellout standing room only crowds. For sellout football games I've heard ticket sales can be 50-80k. Try that 3 times a day.

In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system. Oh, and you should see the middle school feild looks the same but smaller.

Of course it kills me, I can't tell you how much of the mud under that turf I ate while playing there many moons ago.

Overall it's a good school district, new pool w/diving bay, 1500 seat auditoreum where I saw the Cleveland Orchestra at least once a year and it was home to the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival for many years(Tom Hanks spent his early years there). Buildings to the right of the baseball feild house vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses. They used to have a planetarium not sure if it's still there. There are rumors of a coming tie in with the Cleveland Clinic.

OK I'm rambling, perhaps a bit nostalgic, At least in my neck of the woods we still take high school seriously..

 

[Andylusion]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

My alma mater spent 1.6 million on a renovation, in Ohio. I'm told it's close to paying for itself. It seats 8000, has room for 2000 standing and has hosted nationally televised high school games. I've even heard they get TV revenue. In addition to football they've had regionally televised lacrosse and soccer games. The feild is the home feild for the high school as well as a nearby catholic high school and is also used for high school/college level lacrosse, soccer, feild hockey and track & feild events. And as you can see the baseball feild ain't bad either. I know a couple of years ago they bragged that they had over 300 seperate events, during football playoffs 2 & 3 games a day with sellout standing room only crowds. For sellout football games I've heard ticket sales can be 50-80k. Try that 3 times a day.

In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system. Oh, and you should see the middle school feild looks the same but smaller.

Of course it kills me, I can't tell you how much of the mud under that turf I ate while playing there many moons ago.

Overall it's a good school district, new pool w/diving bay, 1500 seat auditoreum where I saw the Cleveland Orchestra at least once a year and it was home to the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival for many years(Tom Hanks spent his early years there). Buildings to the right of the baseball feild house vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses. They used to have a planetarium not sure if it's still there. There are rumors of a coming tie in with the Cleveland Clinic.

OK I'm rambling, perhaps a bit nostalgic, At least in my neck of the woods we still take high school seriously..

Let me first say, that I know you mean well. I know you generally think this is a good thing. I am not hating on you, or trying to destroy your rosy views.

However, I have to admit that while reading your post, to me it pointed out in with exact clarity, the problem with education in America today. And I'm not alone.
5 Brutal Realities Of High School Football (From A Coach)

How many times did you mention academics in your post? How many times did you mention preparing kids for life? How many times in your post did you talk about grades, and achievement, and life long success, and what is best for students?

Never.

"close to paying for itself."

Is that what school is about? Making money? I thought it was about education?

Think about it.... you are having the school make money.... off of unpaid labor. You are not paying those kids one penny, so that your school officials and employees, and make money off of their hard work.

"I've even heard they get TV revenue."

Fantastic. Wonderful. Do you have any skills you'd like to show off on TV, so I can make money on broadcasting you? Wouldn't that be great? You work hard so, I make millions? And we talk about slave labor in China? Look what we're doing to our own children.

"In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system."

Well isn't that peachy. What about the students?

While our students fall consistently behind the rest of the world, we spend more money of public 'education' (which includes these highly educational stadium), than any other country in the world today.

Just last week, I walked with an immigrant from Germany. He had 4 or 5 children. All of them.... every single one.... An Engineer. I know where the Football stars are from my high school. I order a Whooper from them at the drive through.

Why are we falling behind? But oh that doesn't matter, because a Stadium will be great for the schools budget.

Cleveland Orchestra

Well that's great if your kids expect to be profession orchestra players.

Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival

Because so many fortune 500 companies, are hiring Shakespeare cos-play artists.

....vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses.

Which I support, but none of which has any requirement for a multi-million dollar stadium.

....Now let me be clear....

I do not mean to mock everything you have said. AND... I am all for people engaged in sports if they want to.

My problem is.... School... is supposed to be..... SCHOOL. The purpose is to teach people so they are ready for life. And quite frankly we're doing a terrible job of it. People come out of school, and are not ready for the world.

I've met people who were in 11th grade, who couldn't use a calculator to do a division problem. But they had a great record on the football team.

And at the same time, you don't seem to grasp the negative consequences of this course of action. Football couches, who are pressured to get wins, because the school demands a return on their stadium investment, screaming and yelling at kids, because they lost a game.

At the same time, failing students given passing grades, because they need that linebacker for the football game. Not to mention students performing worse academically because instead of being focused on their work, they are focused on that football game Friday.

Is this really what school is supposed to be about?

This is a terrible development. We've become more like Rome, with bread and circuses, taking over growth of the country, and the future of students.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

One: it's Texas

Two: it's Texas football

Three: the tax payers voted on it.

Four so it's none of your business

 

[baileyn45]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

My alma mater spent 1.6 million on a renovation, in Ohio. I'm told it's close to paying for itself. It seats 8000, has room for 2000 standing and has hosted nationally televised high school games. I've even heard they get TV revenue. In addition to football they've had regionally televised lacrosse and soccer games. The feild is the home feild for the high school as well as a nearby catholic high school and is also used for high school/college level lacrosse, soccer, feild hockey and track & feild events. And as you can see the baseball feild ain't bad either. I know a couple of years ago they bragged that they had over 300 seperate events, during football playoffs 2 & 3 games a day with sellout standing room only crowds. For sellout football games I've heard ticket sales can be 50-80k. Try that 3 times a day.

In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system. Oh, and you should see the middle school feild looks the same but smaller.

Of course it kills me, I can't tell you how much of the mud under that turf I ate while playing there many moons ago.

Overall it's a good school district, new pool w/diving bay, 1500 seat auditoreum where I saw the Cleveland Orchestra at least once a year and it was home to the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival for many years(Tom Hanks spent his early years there). Buildings to the right of the baseball feild house vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses. They used to have a planetarium not sure if it's still there. There are rumors of a coming tie in with the Cleveland Clinic.

OK I'm rambling, perhaps a bit nostalgic, At least in my neck of the woods we still take high school seriously..

Let me first say, that I know you mean well. I know you generally think this is a good thing. I am not hating on you, or trying to destroy your rosy views.

However, I have to admit that while reading your post, to me it pointed out in with exact clarity, the problem with education in America today. And I'm not alone.
5 Brutal Realities Of High School Football (From A Coach)

How many times did you mention academics in your post? How many times did you mention preparing kids for life? How many times in your post did you talk about grades, and achievement, and life long success, and what is best for students?

Never.

"close to paying for itself."

Is that what school is about? Making money? I thought it was about education?

Think about it.... you are having the school make money.... off of unpaid labor. You are not paying those kids one penny, so that your school officials and employees, and make money off of their hard work.

"I've even heard they get TV revenue."

Fantastic. Wonderful. Do you have any skills you'd like to show off on TV, so I can make money on broadcasting you? Wouldn't that be great? You work hard so, I make millions? And we talk about slave labor in China? Look what we're doing to our own children.

"In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system."

Well isn't that peachy. What about the students?

While our students fall consistently behind the rest of the world, we spend more money of public 'education' (which includes these highly educational stadium), than any other country in the world today.

Just last week, I walked with an immigrant from Germany. He had 4 or 5 children. All of them.... every single one.... An Engineer. I know where the Football stars are from my high school. I order a Whooper from them at the drive through.

Why are we falling behind? But oh that doesn't matter, because a Stadium will be great for the schools budget.

Cleveland Orchestra

Well that's great if your kids expect to be profession orchestra players.

Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival

Because so many fortune 500 companies, are hiring Shakespeare cos-play artists.

....vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses.

Which I support, but none of which has any requirement for a multi-million dollar stadium.

....Now let me be clear....

I do not mean to mock everything you have said. AND... I am all for people engaged in sports if they want to.

My problem is.... School... is supposed to be..... SCHOOL. The purpose is to teach people so they are ready for life. And quite frankly we're doing a terrible job of it. People come out of school, and are not ready for the world.

I've met people who were in 11th grade, who couldn't use a calculator to do a division problem. But they had a great record on the football team.

And at the same time, you don't seem to grasp the negative consequences of this course of action. Football couches, who are pressured to get wins, because the school demands a return on their stadium investment, screaming and yelling at kids, because they lost a game.

At the same time, failing students given passing grades, because they need that linebacker for the football game. Not to mention students performing worse academically because instead of being focused on their work, they are focused on that football game Friday.

Is this really what school is supposed to be about?

This is a terrible development. We've become more like Rome, with bread and circuses, taking over growth of the country, and the future of students.

I understand what you're saying and agree in part but might have to disagree in part. To me the facility is an asset. It has the potential to pump resources into the system. The funny part is that the schools football team isn't particularly good. The revenues from the facility on the other hand are pumped back into the system. This district has over the last 10 yrs rebuilt it's middle schools, over the last 15 yrs it's elementary schools and is currently rebuilding the high school itself.

I guess all I'm saying is that such spending is not necesarily a bad thing. You can imagine the voices raised when this rebuild of the football facilities was proposed. Those same voices are now arguing over how to spend the proceeds. The leading candidate is lab facilities, which supposedly has attracted the attention of the Cleveland Clinic.

From my perspective I'm proud of this system. This is a city that abuts Cleveland. Through the 80s & 90s it saw a bit of a decline as enrollment dropped and corresponding state funds declined. In the early 80s and late 70s it was huge, 4000 students in the building. At that time it was academically recognized nationally. It's on it's way back to excellence.

As far as sports it's about how you utilize such programs. This school uses high school talent on TV cameras, as sports trainers and in media promotion. All real world experience. Personally I value my experiences in sports for what I learned, team building, continual improvement, passing on what you've learned, all have served me well.

The Shakespeare fastival(which is no longer hosted) is another example of how such programs can have greater benfits. Back in my day the sets were built by the vaocational students. The performances were filmed by the film students. About 5 years ago I saw a picture of friend who was involved in both. He and Steven Speilberg had their arms around each other laughing. Real world potential.

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of issues with education in this country, but it's a complex issue in a changing world. The football facility has the potential to be an incredible asset if used properly.

 

[Andylusion]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

One: it's Texas

Two: it's Texas football

Three: the tax payers voted on it.

Four so it's none of your business

One, don't care.
Two, don't care.
Three, don't care.
Four, don't care.

If "mind your own business" is the response one gets for their opinion on public policy, then you need to shut up, and mind your own business too.

This is a forum on politics. The entire purpose of the forum is to talk about opinions on the issues. If that isn't allowed here, then you need SHUT UP... and GET OUT. Follow your own demands. Leave.

Practice what you preach brother. Or stop preaching it.

 

[Andylusion]

Japan is very aggressive about sports. Especially swimming and basketball.

I doubt that. From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all. If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board. Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either. I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....

View attachment 73198

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school. The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong. Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium? HIGH SCHOOL? There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium. That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.

My alma mater spent 1.6 million on a renovation, in Ohio. I'm told it's close to paying for itself. It seats 8000, has room for 2000 standing and has hosted nationally televised high school games. I've even heard they get TV revenue. In addition to football they've had regionally televised lacrosse and soccer games. The feild is the home feild for the high school as well as a nearby catholic high school and is also used for high school/college level lacrosse, soccer, feild hockey and track & feild events. And as you can see the baseball feild ain't bad either. I know a couple of years ago they bragged that they had over 300 seperate events, during football playoffs 2 & 3 games a day with sellout standing room only crowds. For sellout football games I've heard ticket sales can be 50-80k. Try that 3 times a day.

In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system. Oh, and you should see the middle school feild looks the same but smaller.

Of course it kills me, I can't tell you how much of the mud under that turf I ate while playing there many moons ago.

Overall it's a good school district, new pool w/diving bay, 1500 seat auditoreum where I saw the Cleveland Orchestra at least once a year and it was home to the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival for many years(Tom Hanks spent his early years there). Buildings to the right of the baseball feild house vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses. They used to have a planetarium not sure if it's still there. There are rumors of a coming tie in with the Cleveland Clinic.

OK I'm rambling, perhaps a bit nostalgic, At least in my neck of the woods we still take high school seriously..

Let me first say, that I know you mean well. I know you generally think this is a good thing. I am not hating on you, or trying to destroy your rosy views.

However, I have to admit that while reading your post, to me it pointed out in with exact clarity, the problem with education in America today. And I'm not alone.
5 Brutal Realities Of High School Football (From A Coach)

How many times did you mention academics in your post? How many times did you mention preparing kids for life? How many times in your post did you talk about grades, and achievement, and life long success, and what is best for students?

Never.

"close to paying for itself."

Is that what school is about? Making money? I thought it was about education?

Think about it.... you are having the school make money.... off of unpaid labor. You are not paying those kids one penny, so that your school officials and employees, and make money off of their hard work.

"I've even heard they get TV revenue."

Fantastic. Wonderful. Do you have any skills you'd like to show off on TV, so I can make money on broadcasting you? Wouldn't that be great? You work hard so, I make millions? And we talk about slave labor in China? Look what we're doing to our own children.

"In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system."

Well isn't that peachy. What about the students?

While our students fall consistently behind the rest of the world, we spend more money of public 'education' (which includes these highly educational stadium), than any other country in the world today.

Just last week, I walked with an immigrant from Germany. He had 4 or 5 children. All of them.... every single one.... An Engineer. I know where the Football stars are from my high school. I order a Whooper from them at the drive through.

Why are we falling behind? But oh that doesn't matter, because a Stadium will be great for the schools budget.

Cleveland Orchestra

Well that's great if your kids expect to be profession orchestra players.

Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival

Because so many fortune 500 companies, are hiring Shakespeare cos-play artists.

....vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses.

Which I support, but none of which has any requirement for a multi-million dollar stadium.

....Now let me be clear....

I do not mean to mock everything you have said. AND... I am all for people engaged in sports if they want to.

My problem is.... School... is supposed to be..... SCHOOL. The purpose is to teach people so they are ready for life. And quite frankly we're doing a terrible job of it. People come out of school, and are not ready for the world.

I've met people who were in 11th grade, who couldn't use a calculator to do a division problem. But they had a great record on the football team.

And at the same time, you don't seem to grasp the negative consequences of this course of action. Football couches, who are pressured to get wins, because the school demands a return on their stadium investment, screaming and yelling at kids, because they lost a game.

At the same time, failing students given passing grades, because they need that linebacker for the football game. Not to mention students performing worse academically because instead of being focused on their work, they are focused on that football game Friday.

Is this really what school is supposed to be about?

This is a terrible development. We've become more like Rome, with bread and circuses, taking over growth of the country, and the future of students.

I understand what you're saying and agree in part but might have to disagree in part. To me the facility is an asset. It has the potential to pump resources into the system. The funny part is that the schools football team isn't particularly good. The revenues from the facility on the other hand are pumped back into the system. This district has over the last 10 yrs rebuilt it's middle schools, over the last 15 yrs it's elementary schools and is currently rebuilding the high school itself.

I guess all I'm saying is that such spending is not necesarily a bad thing. You can imagine the voices raised when this rebuild of the football facilities was proposed. Those same voices are now arguing over how to spend the proceeds. The leading candidate is lab facilities, which supposedly has attracted the attention of the Cleveland Clinic.

From my perspective I'm proud of this system. This is a city that abuts Cleveland. Through the 80s & 90s it saw a bit of a decline as enrollment dropped and corresponding state funds declined. In the early 80s and late 70s it was huge, 4000 students in the building. At that time it was academically recognized nationally. It's on it's way back to excellence.

As far as sports it's about how you utilize such programs. This school uses high school talent on TV cameras, as sports trainers and in media promotion. All real world experience. Personally I value my experiences in sports for what I learned, team building, continual improvement, passing on what you've learned, all have served me well.

The Shakespeare fastival(which is no longer hosted) is another example of how such programs can have greater benfits. Back in my day the sets were built by the vaocational students. The performances were filmed by the film students. About 5 years ago I saw a picture of friend who was involved in both. He and Steven Speilberg had their arms around each other laughing. Real world potential.

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of issues with education in this country, but it's a complex issue in a changing world. The football facility has the potential to be an incredible asset if used properly.

Of course you see it as an asset. And intelligent people can disagree, while being civil.

Here's my problem.... any time you say to me "X is a good thing because it brings in money for education"... which is effectively the argument you have presented here..... all of those arguments fail with me. Why?

Because the US, has for many years now... several decades in fact.... spent more money on public education, than any other country on the face of this planet. There is no country, that spends more on public education, than this country. And it's been that way for several decades.

Yet... we're ranked according to how educated our students compare to international students, about 14th to 20th, depending on the year, and scale used.

There are countries, that spend less than HALF of the money we do, on education, who score higher than the US on any.... ANY measurement we use.

Do you see my problem? It brings more money into the system... as if that's the goal. But we already have more money in our system, than any country, any where, has in their system... and yet they are coming out ahead.

When we already outspend everyone.... how is getting even more money... a positive? Where do you think the pay off is going to be?

That's my issue with this entire deal. Yeah, I'm sure the stadium is going to bring in money. That's not positive.

And here is my suggestion.... based on what I have read about the school systems around the world, that are absolutely flogging us academically.....

The reason why they are able to have much better education, at a fraction of the price, is because they are focused on.... EDUCATION. Not football... and baseball.... and Shakespeare.... and whatever else. EDUCATION. No stadiums. No bleachers, and ticket buying fans.

Now don't get me wrong. If you really want that, fine.... but I don't want to hear people complaining that companies are hiring overseas talent, and you can't get a job. Because your boss, doesn't give a crap how many touchdowns you scored, and if you helped build a stage for Steve Spielberg, unless you are a professional stage builder.

And I gotta tell you, from what I've read, building stage props, is not exactly a great career path, unless you plan to move to California, or some place with a big movie industry. The median wage is $40,000, and that includes Hollywood. That's country wide. I don't exactly see a booming stage industry here in Ohio.

By the way.... I have no problem with vocational schools, that specialize in vocational training, and if you want such a school to build props and stages, and so on... all of that is fine.

My argument to you would be, that should be completely separate from academic schools, where they are training kids on how to do the 80% of the jobs on the planet, that are not vocational.

Again, this is why companies are hiring people from India to do software programming, and engineering work, and chemical work, and industrial design, and on and on and on and on and on and on.... and we keep complaining about it without asking why they have to seek over seas workers to begin with. Couldn't be because our students are building stages for Shakespeare and playing lacrosse and football, instead of doing academic learning.

That's where my problem is. Yeah, it's asset. Yeah it brings in money. No, assets and money has not helped our students compete with the rest of the world in decades, and I would argue it never will.

We need to re-think our system and what the end goal is. If the end goal is to bring in more money... and screw education.... great. This is wonderful plan. If the goal is education.... then I would suggest this isn't the best option, and would cite educations system around the world that out perform ours, and don't have massive stadiums, as proof.

 

[initforme]

Texas ain't valuing edacashun, but it values football...backwards state.

 

[Agit8r]

The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.

And you've been incorrect all that time. The "compensation" includes health insurance benefits in the U.S., but not in most developed countries.

 

[Andylusion]

The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.

And you've been incorrect all that time. The "compensation" includes health insurance benefits in the U.S., but not in most developed countries.

Name one developing country, that has a fraction as good of health care system as we do?

Free healthcare, sucks. Not a valid comparison.