How much should health care cost? Should it cost anything?

[syrenn]

Paying the same is a nice thought but can't work. But let's say we try it, how much should everyone pay?

I have no idea. You're the one saying that's impossible. Why?

Because if you set it high enough to make it sustainable it will be too expensive for the poor. If you make it cheap enough for even the poorest to be able to afford it, it wouldn't be a sustainable system.

And there it is.

Public health care is unsustainable.

That is unless you get "the rich" and not so "rich" to subsidize the poor. Finally you see the light.

 

[Bern80]

Believe me I HATE that we not only didn't take power away from insurance companies, but instead gave them more customers and more power. Despite what some people in this thread might think, I don't 100% love this bill. I think it could have been MUCH better. However I really don't see any other options that would viable (and get enough votes) to make the amount of difference that this bill will make for many people. Yes, there are big negatives with this bill, but the positives it does bring are good enough for me, for now to enact it and fix it as we go.

And you simply can not look at things that way and expect to maintain your freedom or have system that accomplishes its goals. It isn't even clear how these people who can't get insurance will get that insurance. This 'let's get these few million people covered no matter the cost financially or to liberty' is just stupid. You may think the cost to you financially and to your liberty is worth it to cover those few million people. To me it isn't. And you can beat your, 'well I guess I'm the compassionate one' drum till your blue in the face. Breeding depedence on government is not compassion. Simply continuing to give people things through tax payer dollars while expecting nothing of them is not compassion. All you are deciding is in what manor are your health care costs going to rise. Are they going to rise to pay for people to be treated at the ER, or are they going to rise as a result of even more regulation on the insurance industry. That you got the one miniscule thing you wanted out of this bill and could give to shits less about what we all will have to give up as a result and how inefficiently it was accomplished and don't even won't even entertain a better way of doing it is truly scary. I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but you STILL aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[Big Fitz]

I have no idea. You're the one saying that's impossible. Why?

Because if you set it high enough to make it sustainable it will be too expensive for the poor. If you make it cheap enough for even the poorest to be able to afford it, it wouldn't be a sustainable system.

And there it is.

Public health care is unsustainable.

That is unless you get "the rich" and not so "rich" to subsidize the poor. Finally you see the light.

Pwnd himself with one sentence. Told ya RDD. You don't understand how things REALLY work and think good intentions gives intrinsic value when it doesn't.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Everyone doesn't and shouldn't pay the same, it's impossible. It's not what this legislation is about. You can't bleed money from someone that just doesn't have it. That's where you say, fuck em, let em die and I say let's help subsidize their healthcare insurance rather then let them go to the ER without insurance and run up a bigger bill.

Why don't they just go to the doctor and set up a payment plan with him? He'll charge a lot less for treating the flu or strep throat or an ear infection than an ER would. They also get lots of drug samples they can pass along.

Why shouldn't everyone pay the same?

Because they don't want to pay anything, that is the point. Hell, i don't want to pay anything either, but life sucks.

This is the second time I've asked this of RDD and the second time he hasn't answered.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I have no idea. You're the one saying that's impossible. Why?

Because if you set it high enough to make it sustainable it will be too expensive for the poor. If you make it cheap enough for even the poorest to be able to afford it, it wouldn't be a sustainable system.

And there it is.

Public health care is unsustainable.

That is unless you get "the rich" and not so "rich" to subsidize the poor. Finally you see the light.

 

[Big Fitz]

It's not what this legislation is about.

Once again, intentions =/= reality.

For instance. I intend to eat a salad, but instead get a jumbo rack of ribs with a side order of gravy fries. My cholesterol should know what my intentions are and therefore be lower.

I doubt even you miss the fault to this thinking... But I've been wrong about your intelligence, or lack thereof, before.

You can't bleed money from someone that just doesn't have it.

And the poor have no right to the money which others have. If the rich feel obligated to help, it is charity and is the soul of kindness. But when you essentially stick the gun of the police in their face (for to resist, that is what WILL happen) and say 'gimme cause I need' (even if you call it taxation) it's still theft. Good to know you're so morally defunct that this doesn't bother you.

That's where you say, fuck em, let em die

Find the quote, you fucking liar. Where did me, or Syrenn, or Bern, or Cecille say 'fuck em and let em die'. You are ASSuming again.

and I say let's help subsidize their healthcare insurance rather then let them go to the ER without insurance and run up a bigger bill.

Since the government is living off of borrowed and (essentially) counterfeited money through excessive printing, where, praytell is this money going to come from? With our current debt level, deficit and overspending BEFORE Obamacare, are bankrupt. They just haven't come to take the economic body away yet. So what are we going to subsidize with? Fairy Sprinkles?

You've no clue about what's going on in the world and seem to be under the assumption that health care is an insulated, isolated independent aspect of the world and that nothing else out there has any impact on how the mechanics and logistics of this all come together. I think it's time to shut your sphincter. You're stinking up the joint.

 

[Big Fitz]

Coming from the guy who can't afford health insurance and needs a payment plan to pay off $6000.

The fact that I am working poor, and cannot just pay 6 grand out of my petty cash boosts your ego? What an arrogant fuck you are. You're the kinda guy who'd laugh at poor people breaking their leg, wouldn't you? And cheer if they were rich. Way to illustrate your lack of character you sanctimonious hypocrite. Oh here we must help the poor and treat them good and coddle them. Then when confronted with one who IS poor an not begging for a hand out from you, you attack him. Well fuck you very much Emily Post.

 

[Zoom-boing]

It's not what this legislation is about.

Once again, intentions =/= reality.

For instance. I intend to eat a salad, but instead get a jumbo rack of ribs with a side order of gravy fries. My cholesterol should know what my intentions are and therefore be lower.

I doubt even you miss the fault to this thinking... But I've been wrong about your intelligence, or lack thereof, before.

You can't bleed money from someone that just doesn't have it.

And the poor have no right to the money which others have. If the rich feel obligated to help, it is charity and is the soul of kindness. But when you essentially stick the gun of the police in their face (for to resist, that is what WILL happen) and say 'gimme cause I need' (even if you call it taxation) it's still theft. Good to know you're so morally defunct that this doesn't bother you.

That's where you say, fuck em, let em die

Find the quote, you fucking liar. Where did me, or Syrenn, or Bern, or Cecille say 'fuck em and let em die'. You are ASSuming again.

and I say let's help subsidize their healthcare insurance rather then let them go to the ER without insurance and run up a bigger bill.

Since the government is living off of borrowed and (essentially) counterfeited money through excessive printing, where, praytell is this money going to come from? With our current debt level, deficit and overspending BEFORE Obamacare, are bankrupt. They just haven't come to take the economic body away yet. So what are we going to subsidize with? Fairy Sprinkles?

You've no clue about what's going on in the world and seem to be under the assumption that health care is an insulated, isolated independent aspect of the world and that nothing else out there has any impact on how the mechanics and logistics of this all come together. I think it's time to shut your sphincter. You're stinking up the joint.

Why, joe taxpayer of course.

Obamacare Packs Crushing New Taxes

 

[Big Fitz]

Why don't they just go to the doctor and set up a payment plan with him? He'll charge a lot less for treating the flu or strep throat or an ear infection than an ER would. They also get lots of drug samples they can pass along.

Why shouldn't everyone pay the same?

Because they don't want to pay anything, that is the point. Hell, i don't want to pay anything either, but life sucks.

This is the second time I've asked this of RDD and the second time he hasn't answered.

yep. Deadbeat Crisis... not a health care crisis. And I'll bet dollars to donuts that this idiot would file for every exemption and every tax break he could find (assuming he actually isn't some trust fund fuck who's had someone else already do that) so he didn't have to fund the poor's healh care.

 

[Big Fitz]

It's not what this legislation is about.

Once again, intentions =/= reality.

For instance. I intend to eat a salad, but instead get a jumbo rack of ribs with a side order of gravy fries. My cholesterol should know what my intentions are and therefore be lower.

I doubt even you miss the fault to this thinking... But I've been wrong about your intelligence, or lack thereof, before.



And the poor have no right to the money which others have. If the rich feel obligated to help, it is charity and is the soul of kindness. But when you essentially stick the gun of the police in their face (for to resist, that is what WILL happen) and say 'gimme cause I need' (even if you call it taxation) it's still theft. Good to know you're so morally defunct that this doesn't bother you.



Find the quote, you fucking liar. Where did me, or Syrenn, or Bern, or Cecille say 'fuck em and let em die'. You are ASSuming again.

and I say let's help subsidize their healthcare insurance rather then let them go to the ER without insurance and run up a bigger bill.

Since the government is living off of borrowed and (essentially) counterfeited money through excessive printing, where, praytell is this money going to come from? With our current debt level, deficit and overspending BEFORE Obamacare, are bankrupt. They just haven't come to take the economic body away yet. So what are we going to subsidize with? Fairy Sprinkles?

You've no clue about what's going on in the world and seem to be under the assumption that health care is an insulated, isolated independent aspect of the world and that nothing else out there has any impact on how the mechanics and logistics of this all come together. I think it's time to shut your sphincter. You're stinking up the joint.

Why, joe taxpayer of course.

Obamacare Packs Crushing New Taxes

or Obama's stash.
Just not him.

 

[Big Fitz]

So again, to bad so sad. The legestions is about giving people a huge amount of funding ..for nothing. It is about forcing people to pay into a system they do not want and will not use. Just as in the UK and Canada, they have public health care and people still pay separately for private insurance over and above the public which they dont use. I am not interested in paying for health care twice.

Find a free clinic to take care of your problems. Subsidizing someone to have the ability to abuse a system is bull shit. So i am for the ER costs. AND that is on a triage system. If its not a true emergency they get turned away from the ER and sent to a clinic.

For the 87th time, it's not for nothing. It's to save the rest of us money. You aren't even making sense anymore. Don't even respond to me anymore, talking to you is pointless. At least Bern80 is somewhat reasonable and BigFitz is a walking hypocrite and makes me laugh. You're just f'ing weird and I honestly can't figure out what the hell tangent you are talking about half the time. Just so you know I won't be responding much to you anymore.

I feel the same about what you are saying. It makes no sense. You seem to be the only one having trouble understanding what i am saying though. Go figure that.

And at least economics back you up Syrenn. This dipshit has long passed into Rdeantopia.

 

[TeaPartyLogo]

Here's the fundamental problem:

Left to their own devices, a great many people will not get any kind of health care insurance. They will claim they can't afford it.

But if there is one thing I've learned, it's that people find a way to afford what they want to afford. So they buy more car than they can afford and rent or buy more house than they can afford.

But they don't "want" to afford health insurance, even though they will most definitely need care at some point. Doctors and hospitals won't deny them that care even if they can't pay. So the rest of us end up paying these people's health expenses via higher insurance and medical care costs.

How do we get people to be responsible for their own health care?

Maybe insurance should only be available for major medical expenses. Anything else is self-pay at the time service is rendered, with ability to pay verified before care is given. No pay, no service. Just like other types of business.

 

[RDD_1210]

I have to remind myself that on this site, I am dealing with people who are probably not educated beyond high school (if that) and probably never leave the town they live in. I'm guessing you aren't required to use your brain in whatever job you do (if you work at all) and your ability to think critically suffers as a result. Your repeated lack of common sense, the inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and the need to repeat the same tired bullshit lines about your freedom being taken away over and over again put it all back in to perspective for me. I have no interest in continuing this thread as I've probably already stuck around too long. Good luck with your lives.

 

[Big Fitz]

Believe me I HATE that we not only didn't take power away from insurance companies, but instead gave them more customers and more power.

Getting down to brass tacks here. Anti-capitalist hatred is at the core of RDD's desire to have national healthcare.

However I really don't see any other options that would viable (and get enough votes) to make the amount of difference that this bill will make for many people.

REALLY? You've not been paying attention then. Whatta surprise.

1. End state and federal mandates on insurance. Let people pick the type of coverage they want just like car, homeowners and life insurance.

2. Force open pricing by all medical agencies and facilities for all treatments so people may comparison sop.

3. Allow purchase of insurance across state lines increasing the size of the pool of competition.

4. End restrictions on separating medical facilities from what is currently called "insurance".

5. End tax exemptions to businesses that pay employees insurance but give it to the individual account holder.

6. End commercial pharmaceutical advertising. Since that prohibition was ended in 1994, prices have increased over 300% for drugs and development while advertising budgets shot through the roof increasing drug costs.

7. Institute 'loser pays' tort reform. This ends frivolent lawsuits and ambulance chasers that force facilities to practice "defensive mediine".

8.BAN all federal government provision or administration of health care with the only exception being for active military personnel. Veterans must seek private care.

9. BAN federal tax dollars from being spent on health care related subsidation. this includes privatization of Medicare and medicaid on the federal level. Seek private companies to take over and administer these programs.

10. End all subsidies to health industry related businesses and individuals. Offer tax incentives to private individuals to give to health care charities.

There are ten simple suggestions that increase accessibility, lower prices, foster competition, protect both hospitals and consumers an shrink the size of government and increase giving to private charities. These are economically sound concepts too, because you are taking money away from government waste, putting it in the hands of profit run industry who has to do good business to stay in business. This grows the economy and starves wasteful bureaucracy and fosters new product through competition all the while, lowering prices for the consumer.

What's not to like...? unless you're some sort of socialist or fascist.

 

[Big Fitz]

I have to remind myself that on this site, I am dealing with people who are probably not educated beyond high school (if that) and probably never leave the town they live in. I'm guessing you aren't required to use your brain in whatever job you do (if you work at all) and your ability to think critically suffers as a result. Your repeated lack of common sense, the inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and the need to repeat the same tired bullshit lines about your freedom being taken away over and over again put it all back in to perspective for me. I have no interest in continuing this thread as I've probably already stuck around too long. Good luck with your lives.

face it, you pwned yourself. Admitted your solution is an abject failure and now are whining that nobody's baffled at your bullshit. About time you achieved conscious thought long enough to realize your philosophy lost. So to that I say:

 

[Bern80]

How do we get people to be responsible for their own health care?

Maybe insurance should only be available for major medical expenses. Anything else is self-pay at the time service is rendered, with ability to pay verified before care is given. No pay, no service. Just like other types of business.

That is certainly something I would like to see. It would most definatley lower the cost of services and open up competition in the insurance industry. But this bill simply isn not going to allow that to happen. This bill does not reform our health care system for the better. The bitter reality for people like RDD is that it fucks over the many to save the few. He thinks it's worth it. I don't.

How do you get people to be more responsible? You allow there to be negative consequences for not doing so. Certianly an insurance mandate would do that. Unfortunately the fed requiring people to buy something is unconstitutional and sets a pretty dangerous precedent jeopardizing personal liberty. That few seem to care about that is pretty alarming. So what's the next best option? How about another way of holding people legally accountable? Make it illegal to not pay for services rendered. If you can't pay for services, you work out a payment plan. If you have to spend the rest of your life paying it off, so be it.

 

[Big Fitz]

Maybe insurance should only be available for major medical expenses.

Before the Great Society 'malforms' that's what it was for.

 

[Bern80]

I have to remind myself that on this site, I am dealing with people who are probably not educated beyond high school (if that) and probably never leave the town they live in. I'm guessing you aren't required to use your brain in whatever job you do (if you work at all) and your ability to think critically suffers as a result. Your repeated lack of common sense, the inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and the need to repeat the same tired bullshit lines about your freedom being taken away over and over again put it all back in to perspective for me. I have no interest in continuing this thread as I've probably already stuck around too long. Good luck with your lives.

The only thing scarier RDD is someone who is supposedly educated, which I assume means at least took a basic economics class, and thinks this bill will provide more options and lower costs for consumers.

 

[Big Fitz]

How do we get people to be responsible for their own health care?

Maybe insurance should only be available for major medical expenses. Anything else is self-pay at the time service is rendered, with ability to pay verified before care is given. No pay, no service. Just like other types of business.

That is certainly something I would like to see. It would most definatley lower the cost of services and open up competition in the insurance industry. But this bill simply isn not going to allow that to happen. This bill does not reform our health care system for the better. The bitter reality for people like RDD is that it fucks over the many to save the few. He thinks it's worth it. I don't.

How do you get people to be more responsible? You allow there to be negative consequences for not doing so. Certianly an insurance mandate would do that. Unfortunately the fed requiring people to buy something is unconstitutional and sets a pretty dangerous precedent jeopardizing personal liberty. That few seem to care about that is pretty alarming. So what's the next best option? How about another way of holding people legally accountable? Make it illegal to not pay for services rendered. If you can't pay for services, you work out a payment plan. If you have to spend the rest of your life paying it off, so be it.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bern80 again.

Just like I did.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Coming from the guy who can't afford health insurance and needs a payment plan to pay off $6000.

The fact that I am working poor, and cannot just pay 6 grand out of my petty cash boosts your ego? What an arrogant fuck you are. You're the kinda guy who'd laugh at poor people breaking their leg, wouldn't you? And cheer if they were rich. Way to illustrate your lack of character you sanctimonious hypocrite. Oh here we must help the poor and treat them good and coddle them. Then when confronted with one who IS poor an not begging for a hand out from you, you attack him. Well fuck you very much Emily Post.

RDD and company only like poor people when they're contributing to their Mother Theresa complex. Poor people who insist on having self-respect are just useless to them.