How are we really doing?

[janeeng]

Jim, I think you want her! that's twice you put that nasty bitch up here, I think you would love to slap her around and do the naughty! hahahahahahahahaha

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Dawoud
BUT im still gonna keep posting articles written about the war in IRAQ...written and published in major papers
If you have a problem with them.......Tough

Start a new thread then on your own, this way it'll be nice and neat, no need to crap on this thread any longer than you already have. Make a thread called "Gripes in Iraq" or whatever you want and do it there.

 

[jimnyc]

Dawoud - you were asked politely to start a new thread with a new title.

 

[whatnow]

<<800? LOL Try giving us a link! I think it was more like 6!>>

"Army officials revealed Tuesday that 500 identical form letters were sent to newspapers across the country with different signatures. They said the mass mailing was the wrong way to get the message out, but they didn't know if the commander would be disciplined."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-letter15.html

>>I don't think 4 above the average is so alarming. It sucks that even one person would feel the need to take their own life, but this isn't something specific to Bush or Iraq - it's happened by soldiers in every war ever fought.<<

"Alarmed by the number of suicides among soldiers in Iraq, the Army has asked a team of doctors to determine whether the stress of combat and long deployments is contributing to the deaths.

In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000. The Navy also is investigating one possible suicide. And about a dozen other Army deaths are under investigation and could include suicides.

The numbers suggest the rate in Iraq is above normal. Last year, the military services reported 8 to 9 suicides per 100,000 people. The Army rate is usually higher, 10 to 13 per 100,000. That mirrors the rate for the same age group in the general population."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-13-army-suicides-usat_x.htm

Is it alarming to you that the Army finds these suicides "alarming?"

>>it's happened by soldiers in every war ever fought.<<

could you post a link to that info please?

 

[Aquarian]

regarding the 'popular' picture a few posts back, I'd venture to guess that her state is more due to the ravages of living in a 3rd world country and/or being poor than being muslim in and of itself. Surely you don't think that's any more representative of muslims on the whole than this picture is of american women?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Aquarian
regarding the 'popular' picture a few posts back, I'd venture to guess that her state is more due to the ravages of living in a 3rd world country and/or being poor than being muslim in and of itself. Surely you don't think that's any more representative of muslims on the whole than this picture is of american women?

This woman looks like she was married to a muslim and then had the nerve to think on her own. A few stones to the head will do that to you!

 

[jimnyc]

Is it alarming to you that the Army finds these suicides "alarming?"

No. As stated previously, these things happen during wartime. It sucks, but that's the nature of the beast. Look at the suicide rate in the USA for the regular kid in high school, then look at the rate for someone involved in war. People tend to think it's an easy way out of a difficult situation.

could you post a link to that info please?

Just go to your favorite search engine and search for military suicides and name the war. Hell, every military for every nation has had to deal with it during wartime.

 

[Magda]

By the same token, you might want to type into your favorite search engine "form letters soldiers". This will help you in your quest for verification of the numbers sent to hometown newspapers.

In addition, if the army is concerned about the suicide rate, and you as a civilian see nothing wrong, I'll go with the experts.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Magda
By the same token, you might want to type into your favorite search engine "form letters soldiers". This will help you in your quest for verification of the numbers sent to hometown newspapers.

In addition, if the army is concerned about the suicide rate, and you as a civilian see nothing wrong, I'll go with the experts.

You go with the experts, I'll go with the FACTS. The facts are that 12 of the "possible" suicides haven't even been confirmed as suicides. If they are confirmed, we'll be slightly over what they call an average. If not, it'll fall far below.

Let's not let FACTS get in your way though.

 

[Magda]

Experts, or you?

The experts have the facts. You, unfortunately, do not.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Magda
Experts, or you?

The experts have the facts. You, unfortunately, do not.

The statistics released about how many soldiers have committed suicide and other deaths being investigated as suicide or now a matter of record and are FACT.

May I suggest you research the issue before making claims you have no knowledge of. Look at the official military pages, they contain pdf files with all the latest casualties and causes.

Do you see how easy it is to lose your credibility when you post solely on opinion with no basis in fact to support your comments?

Better luck next time!

 

[whatnow]

Originally posted by jimnyc
You go with the experts, I'll go with the FACTS. The facts are that 12 of the "possible" suicides haven't even been confirmed as suicides. If they are confirmed, we'll be slightly over what they call an average. If not, it'll fall far below.

Let's not let FACTS get in your way though.

The facts according to the U.S.Army.

"In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000. The Navy also is investigating one possible suicide. And about a dozen other Army deaths are under investigation and could include suicides.

The numbers suggest the rate in Iraq is above normal. Last year, the military services reported 8 to 9 suicides per 100,000 people. The Army rate is usually higher, 10 to 13 per 100,000. That mirrors the rate for the same age group in the general population"

The "possible suicides" have nothing to do with the figures.
17 per 100,000 is higher than the 10 to 13 per 100,000 that is usual for the Army which is higher than the military on the whole.

Thanks for your response to my request for a link. I have saved it for when you demand a link to evidence of someone's questionable statements.

 

[5stringJeff]

As a former Army officer, let me tell you guys this.

Everyone in the Army goes through suicide prevention training. Soldiers are warned of warning signs, given people to talk to if they are feeling suicidal, etc. So it's not like the Army doesn't care about suicide; it's just the opposite.
And why are soldiers committing suicide? I don't know, but I would guess that it's a mix of missing home, being upset about life in general, wife/girlfriend left them, etc.

 

[jimnyc]

"As yet there is no evidence indicating that the cases represent a spike in the rate of military suicides or any kind of pattern that can be linked to the battlefield environment or poor morale in Iraq, defense officials said. There were 118 suicides in the 1.2 million-member, active-duty military in 2001, which represents a rate that is at least one-third lower than that of the comparable civilian population."

" Overall, the military has not released an official count of possible suicides under investigation, and the total could be higher than seven, given a number of unexplained deaths included in the Pentagon's casualty statistics. The military has reported nine cases of accidental death that could include suicides, most of which were from "noncombat weapons discharges."

In 12 other cases, the cause of death has been officially listed as "other" and described only as "noncombat injuries."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17109-2003Jul19?language=printer

The fact is, that you are taking data from the Army when their is an entire military unit over there which includes Army, Navy, Air Force & Marines.

Even if we go strictly with the Army figures, I don't find it all too alarming. Like I stated earlier, it sucks if even one soldier feels the need to take his own life, but the statistics just don't show mass suicides! The overall rate of suicide is actually lower amongst military personell than that of civilians.

Thanks for your response to my request for a link. I have saved it for when you demand a link to evidence of someone's questionable statements.

Did you really think I was going to scour the internet for links related to suicide for each and every war that ever took place? LOL I'm sorry I couldn't satisfy you, but I just don't have that amount of time. If you choose just one or 2 wars and specify them I'll be happy to research for you!

 

[whatnow]

Originally posted by jimnyc
"As yet there is no evidence indicating that the cases represent a spike in the rate of military suicides or any kind of pattern that can be linked to the battlefield environment or poor morale in Iraq, defense officials said. There were 118 suicides in the 1.2 million-member, active-duty military in 2001, which represents a rate that is at least one-third lower than that of the comparable civilian population."

" Overall, the military has not released an official count of possible suicides under investigation, and the total could be higher than seven, given a number of unexplained deaths included in the Pentagon's casualty statistics. The military has reported nine cases of accidental death that could include suicides, most of which were from "noncombat weapons discharges."

In 12 other cases, the cause of death has been officially listed as "other" and described only as "noncombat injuries."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A17109-2003Jul19?language=printer

The fact is, that you are taking data from the Army when their is an entire military unit over there which includes Army, Navy, Air Force & Marines.

Even if we go strictly with the Army figures, I don't find it all too alarming. Like I stated earlier, it sucks if even one soldier feels the need to take his own life, but the statistics just don't show mass suicides! The overall rate of suicide is actually lower amongst military personell than that of civilians.



Did you really think I was going to scour the internet for links related to suicide for each and every war that ever took place? LOL I'm sorry I couldn't satisfy you, but I just don't have that amount of time. If you choose just one or 2 wars and specify them I'll be happy to research for you!

I don't know who mentioned "mass suicides." The facts are that the number of military suicides is higher than the general population and the miliitary pre-Iraq. Could it possibly be because of low morale or the fact that they are in Iraq and not at home (where the figures would be lower statistically?) I tend to think it's likely. I believe that is the first place that a professional would look for causes. I don't think that it is reasonable that any of these men comitted suicide because their morale was high.
You said, "I'll go with the facts." Whether you find them alarming is certainly up to you. The Army said that they do, but perhaps they are more sensitive.


No, I didn't think that you were going to "scour the internet for links related to suicide for each and every war that ever took place? LOL

However, I rather think that when one is asserting that "I'll go with facts," he would have some to back up such a statement.
But like I said I didn't expect anything.

 

[jimnyc]

The facts are that the number of military suicides is higher than the general population and the miliitary pre-Iraq.

Thats not true, and not even close. The general population suicide rate is substantially higher than that of the military.

You said, "I'll go with the facts." Whether you find them alarming is certainly up to you. The Army said that they do, but perhaps they are more sensitive.

Of course they are going to say it in a manner that will endear them to the listening public. The suicides are extremely close to what the yearly averages have been. If it tends to be a few more or less this particular year isn't, in my opinion, alarming.

However, I rather think that when one is asserting that "I'll go with facts," he would have some to back up such a statement.
But like I said I didn't expect anything.

When I said "I'll go with the facts", that was in reference to the total amount of suicides by our soldiers since the Iraq war started. Hell, go back to 9/11, the suicides just really aren't above the norm in our military. Not sure what you expected, but I did in fact post links to support these numbers. I'm sorry they didn't meet your expectations.

This entire discussion started in an attempt to make it seem as if the entire military population was dissatisfied with their efforts in Iraq and that all soldiers have a low sense of morale, thus leading to an increase in suicides. The polls show that most soldiers are behind the effort and in full support of our government.

 

[whatnow]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Thats not true, and not even close. The general population suicide rate is substantially higher than that of the military.


Of course they are going to say it in a manner that will endear them to the listening public. The suicides are extremely close to what the yearly averages have been. If it tends to be a few more or less this particular year isn't, in my opinion, alarming.



When I said "I'll go with the facts", that was in reference to the total amount of suicides by our soldiers since the Iraq war started. Hell, go back to 9/11, the suicides just really aren't above the norm in our military. Not sure what you expected, but I did in fact post links to support these numbers. I'm sorry they didn't meet your expectations.

This entire discussion started in an attempt to make it seem as if the entire military population was dissatisfied with their efforts in Iraq and that all soldiers have a low sense of morale, thus leading to an increase in suicides. The polls show that most soldiers are behind the effort and in full support of our government.

>>"Thats not true, and not even close. The general population suicide rate is substantially higher than that of the military."<<

"In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000"
"The numbers suggest the rate in Iraq is above normal. "

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-13-army-suicides-usat_x.htm

Again, 17 per 100,000 (of troops in Iraq) is MORE than 13 per 100,000 which is the rate for the same age group in the general population. It doesn't matter how many times you try to say it isn't even close, you are still wrong.

>>"If it tends to be a few more or less this particular year isn't, in my opinion, alarming."<<

"Alarmed by the number of suicides among soldiers in Iraq, the Army has asked a team of doctors to determine whether the stress of combat and long deployments is contributing to the deaths."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-13-army-suicides-usat_x.htm

Fine, the U.S. Army is alarmed and you are not. That's allowed, perhaps the U.S. Army is more sensitive.

>>"When I said "I'll go with the facts", that was in reference to the total amount of suicides by our soldiers since the Iraq war started. "<<

And if the rate among those in Iraq is higher than those not in Iraq, which it is, it seems to make perfect sense to look at the conditions in Iraq as something associated with the increase rate.

>>"This entire discussion started in an attempt to make it seem as if the entire military population was dissatisfied with their efforts in Iraq and that all soldiers have a low sense of morale, "<<

I don't know what the intentions were of the original poster. I do know that whatever they were does not change the fact that the suicide rate among U.S. military serving in Iraq is higher than the general population or the military population outside of Iraq. That is true even if none of the "suspected" suicides being investigated prove to be, in fact, suicides.

>>" The polls show that most soldiers are behind the effort and in full support of our government."<<


"A broad survey of U.S. troops in Iraq by a Pentagon-funded newspaper found that half of those questioned described their unit's morale as low and their training as insufficient, and said they do not plan to reenlist."

http://www.notinourname.net/troops/poll-16oct03.htm

http://www.stripes.com/morale/dayonestats.html

I am not suggesting that not planning to reenlist or low morale reflects on their support of our government or its efforts.

 

[jimnyc]

Can you please use the quote function above where you type in your post to quote what you are responding to. The longer the replies get, the more difficult it gets to read your posts.

Again, 17 per 100,000 (of troops in Iraq) is MORE than 13 per 100,000 which is the rate for the same age group in the general population. It doesn't matter how many times you try to say it isn't even close, you are still wrong.

And it's only been 13 confirmed, you are banking on future suicides. And why did you limit the suicides to a particular age group? Do you have the data available to show us the age groups of those who committed suicide in Iraq? (just asking, don't even know if it is available). Try all age groups in the USA and see which is higher, or provide data that proves the specific age group you are speaking of. Shoot, while you're at it, let's narrow it down to ethnicity!

Fine, the U.S. Army is alarmed and you are not. That's allowed, perhaps the U.S. Army is more sensitive.

You've already stated that in your previous reply. I responded to it then and I notice you omitted that portion out.

And if the rate among those in Iraq is higher than those not in Iraq, which it is, it seems to make perfect sense to look at the conditions in Iraq as something associated with the increase rate.

Let's play your game. The info I have found so far (I can't find the data in it's entirety) shows the suicides to be white males between the ages of 24-44. The rate for that combination among US citizens is 19.5 out of 100,000.

And I would say it isn't necessarily the conditions in Iraq, but maybe results of being in Iraq. It's most likely despondent soldiers that can't take being away from their families. In fact, I think I read a report today that suggested that some of the suicides weren't even intentional, that some of them may have done so trying to injure themselves so that they can go home to their families. (which would technically lower the suicide stats)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031023/ts_nm/iraq_usa_suicides_dc_1

I don't know what the intentions were of the original poster. I do know that whatever they were does not change the fact that the suicide rate among U.S. military serving in Iraq is higher than the general population or the military population outside of Iraq. That is true even if none of the "suspected" suicides being investigated prove to be, in fact, suicides.

Oh really? The military calls them on average with the normal USA stats, and thats before they found out some may not have meant to kill themselves. From the article I just posted:

" The extent of the problem is difficult to judge. Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides but the overall commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said on Wednesday the number of suicides among his troops was comparable to an average similar-sized group of people in the United States."

http://www.notinourname.net/troops/poll-16oct03.htm

And people have the audacity to question the sources of my polls? LOL Here's the mission statement from the Anti Bush/War/Government site you got that from (real credible, and not to mention biased!):

"The Not In Our Name Project is a national network of individuals and organizations committed to standing with the people of the world. As the Not in Our Name Pledge of Resistance states, "we believe that as people living in the United States it is our responsibility to resist the injustices done by our government, in our names." Our mission is to build, strengthen and expand resistance to stop the U.S. government's entire course of war and repression being waged in the name of "fighting terrorism." This course has three main components"

 

[whatnow]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Can you please use the quote function above where you type in your post to quote what you are responding to. The longer the replies get, the more difficult it gets to read your posts.



And it's only been 13 confirmed, you are banking on future suicides. And why did you limit the suicides to a particular age group? Do you have the data available to show us the age groups of those who committed suicide in Iraq? (just asking, don't even know if it is available). Try all age groups in the USA and see which is higher, or provide data that proves the specific age group you are speaking of. Shoot, while you're at it, let's narrow it down to ethnicity!



You've already stated that in your previous reply. I responded to it then and I notice you omitted that portion out.



Let's play your game. The info I have found so far (I can't find the data in it's entirety) shows the suicides to be white males between the ages of 24-44. The rate for that combination among US citizens is 19.5 out of 100,000.

And I would say it isn't necessarily the conditions in Iraq, but maybe results of being in Iraq. It's most likely despondent soldiers that can't take being away from their families. In fact, I think I read a report today that suggested that some of the suicides weren't even intentional, that some of them may have done so trying to injure themselves so that they can go home to their families. (which would technically lower the suicide stats)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031023/ts_nm/iraq_usa_suicides_dc_1



Oh really? The military calls them on average with the normal USA stats, and thats before they found out some may not have meant to kill themselves. From the article I just posted:

" The extent of the problem is difficult to judge. Army officials have expressed concern about the suicides but the overall commander of U.S. forces in Iraq said on Wednesday the number of suicides among his troops was comparable to an average similar-sized group of people in the United States."



And people have the audacity to question the sources of my polls? LOL Here's the mission statement from the Anti Bush/War/Government site you got that from (real credible, and not to mention biased!):

"The Not In Our Name Project is a national network of individuals and organizations committed to standing with the people of the world. As the Not in Our Name Pledge of Resistance states, "we believe that as people living in the United States it is our responsibility to resist the injustices done by our government, in our names." Our mission is to build, strengthen and expand resistance to stop the U.S. government's entire course of war and repression being waged in the name of "fighting terrorism." This course has three main components"

13 confirmed?

"In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000. "

11 + 3 = 14 Which equals a rate of 17 per 100,000. It doesn't matter if no one in the world ever again commits suicide the rate does not change for those serving in Iraq in the past seven months.

Limit to a particular age group? Gee, I don't know. That is the way the U.S. "military officials" are reporting these figures. Perhaps you would have them compare the soldiers with the suicide rate among pre-schoolers? Why are you limiting your figures to white males between the ages of 24-44?

>"In fact, I think I read a report today that suggested that some of the suicides weren't even intentional, that some of them may have done so trying to injure themselves so that they can go home..."<

and these soldiers are no less dead. What exactly is your concern here?

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters10-23-065027.asp?reg=MIDEAST


By the way, these are not MY figures. They are, according to the link, the statement of the U.S. Army. Would they lie? If you think they are lying, then you think they are lying. I have no reason to believe they are. True, I have heard people question even the fatality figures of U.S. troops but I don't know that anything has come of that question.

Conditions in Iraq? If there are U.S. Military in Iraq and they are despondent, low morale, for any reason, that is part of the conditions in Iraq. I would ask you to consider that this comes after "The Army responded to a 26% increase in active-duty suicides from 1997 to 1999 by implementing the suicide-prevention program in 2001." Or maybe they were lying about that increase.

"real credible, and not to mention biased!):"

Um, okay. That was a discussion of the findings of a poll by Stars and Stripes magazine, a pentagon funded publication, also linked. I didn't see you dispute their conclusions (?) but only their mission statement.



"Let's play your game"? Okay, I have been mislead. In my ignorance I thought this was an honest discussion out of a heartfelt effort to "support our troops." That it is merely a game of my-figures-beat-your-figures, my-sources-are-legit-and-yours- are-not' is truly embarrassing, I don't do that.

I hope that you are correct and the Army is wrong and there is nothing to be alarmed about regarding the suicides in Iraq among U.S. military. I hope that the Army is lying to us about the figures and you are correct. I certainly hope the Army is mistaken and you are correct and there is no increase following the already huge increase in 1997-1999 and there is nothing to be concerned about.

 

[jimnyc]

13 confirmed?

Thats correct, did you read the LATEST article I posted in my last reply?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031023/ts_nm/iraq_usa_suicides_dc_1

"Officials in Washington said last week at least 13 soldiers have killed themselves in Iraq"

"In the past seven months, at least 11 soldiers and three Marines have committed suicide in Iraq, military officials say. That is an annual rate of 17 per 100,000. "

And if no more occurred the rest of the year, the final rate would be 13.

Limit to a particular age group? Gee, I don't know. That is the way the U.S. "military officials" are reporting these figures.

Didn't see that part about them reporting the suicides between a particular age group, can you link it to me please?

Perhaps you would have them compare the soldiers with the suicide rate among pre-schoolers?

There are soldiers varying in age from 18 into their 70's. I don't think any age group should be discounted.

Why are you limiting your figures to white males between the ages of 24-44?

Why did you say previously "which is the rate for the same age group in the general population."? I was just responding to your limitations, using limitations of my own.

By the way, these are not MY figures. They are, according to the link, the statement of the U.S. Army. Would they lie? If you think they are lying, then you think they are lying. I have no reason to believe they are. True, I have heard people question even the fatality figures of U.S. troops but I don't know that anything has come of that question.

When did I say anything about the figures being "lies"? There may be a discrepancy on the total amount or rate, but thats to be expected until all the information comes in.

Conditions in Iraq? If there are U.S. Military in Iraq and they are despondent, low morale, for any reason, that is part of the conditions in Iraq. I would ask you to consider that this comes after "The Army responded to a 26% increase in active-duty suicides from 1997 to 1999 by implementing the suicide-prevention program in 2001." Or maybe they were lying about that increase.

So the increase started in 1997-1999, how did Iraq have an impact on that? Maybe you're trying so hard to take a horrible situation and lay blame on Bush and Iraq. The reality is that suicide has been a part of our military as long as the military has been in existence.

Um, okay. That was a discussion of the findings of a poll by Stars and Stripes magazine, a pentagon funded publication, also linked. I didn't see you dispute their conclusions (?) but only their mission statement.

I don't dispute their findings, but when they do a higher sample than 1.075% I'll find it more realistic.

"Let's play your game"? Okay, I have been mislead. In my ignorance I thought this was an honest discussion out of a heartfelt effort to "support our troops." That it is merely a game of my-figures-beat-your-figures, my-sources-are-legit-and-yours- are-not' is truly embarrassing, I don't do that.

Spin it anyway you like, but you started this little "game". Someone had posted an article about the amount of suicides in Iraq, I responded that I didn't find it all that unusual and alarming. You then began to toss out figures and tried to make things seem more severe than they are. You stating you agreed it was alarming and me stating I disagreed should have been enough.

And you want to use the term "heartfelt"? What a laugh! You've done no such thing since you've become a member here.

I hope that you are correct and the Army is wrong and there is nothing to be alarmed about regarding the suicides in Iraq among U.S. military. I hope that the Army is lying to us about the figures and you are correct. I certainly hope the Army is mistaken and you are correct and there is no increase following the already huge increase in 1997-1999 and there is nothing to be concerned about.

Thats twice now you claim I stated the Army is lying, I hope you have something to back up your ridiculous accusations. Well, do you?