Honest Questions For Religious Conservatives About LBGT

[Manonthestreet]

Our co fired a guy who had been employed for 4-5 yrs for simply not mentioning something on his physical. Sounded like an honest oversight. He was well liked and did exellent work....

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Private businesses should be allowed to discriminate. I would never use or except a job from a business that does that, but I wouldn't want to take away their right to do business with who they want either.

My question is for LBGT people: why do you want to use or work at a place you aren't welcome? If you are gay why do you want a job or get your wedding cake at Holy Spirit Bakery?

This isn't a 70 years ago and there is one bakery or a few employers there are many in most areas.

It is the in your face attitude. Fags want to antagonize everybody, then they are whining that Jesus was forgiving etc....

Can you kindly provide an example of how you have been antagonized??

 

[Missourian]

Ok so a mass murderer is forgiven as long as he repents before he dies? But someone who is gay and follows his heart shouldn't be forgiven? You would rather hire a repentant mass murderer then a unrepentant gay person? Sorry to put it in those terms but that is the logical conclusion to that argument.

You invoked the teachings of Jesus on forgiveness...and I informed you that you were mistaken.

My religion doesn't require that I hire, or refuse to hire either. But the government should also not force me to hire either. Jesus chose to eat with sinners, and he didn't rebuke those who chose not to do so. A person with deeply held religious convictions should not be forced by the government to embrace sin, or be forced to invite sin into their business. Whether that is paying for abortion or contraception, or hiring people who engage in behavior the owners religious beliefs codify as sinful.

That is religious freedom.

It's not like we just made this stuff up last year...it has been a part of our religion for millenia. The prohibitions against homosexuality are recorded in the very first book of the Bible...Genesis 19:4-5 and continue through out the Old Testament and into the New...Jesus reiterated the proclamations that God had made them male and female...and that a man should leave his father and mother and be joined with his wife. There isn't any room for discussion in that statement.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

1. I understand that the Bible says homosexual sex is a sin, but what about other sins like lying, adultery, or re-marrying? Would you refuse to hire someone who had violated the Commandments?

Are those sinners running around and are in your face yelling "I am an adulterer" or "I am a liar?" If your answer is no to those then you already have your answer to your question. I did not address re-marrying because it has different criteria.

To your #2 and #3 questions the answer is the same. Quit the "in your face" attitude and everything will be just fine.

So your stance is as long as your sexual preference is a secret I have no problem? To 2 and 3 you didn't answer at all. How do you reconcile Jesus teachings concerning forgiveness with refusing to hire gay people? That was the question.

Simple, the Bible is bigger than Jesus

That opens a whole other can of worms. If you say I'm allowed to ignore those teachings that don't fit your political narrative you just admitted to use religion as a cover for them. Kind of the point of the question but glad to have it confirmed.

The Bible is the Bible . It contains many passages. Read it

The Constitution is the Constitution. It contains many passages. Read it

 

[NYcarbineer]

Religious freedom doesn't include making others follow the "rules" of your religion....that sharia law.

Including when your religion is Climatology or Communism.

Those are not religions.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

Ok so a mass murderer is forgiven as long as he repents before he dies? But someone who is gay and follows his heart shouldn't be forgiven? You would rather hire a repentant mass murderer then a unrepentant gay person? Sorry to put it in those terms but that is the logical conclusion to that argument.

You invoked the teachings of Jesus on forgiveness...and I informed you that you were mistaken.

My religion doesn't require that I hire, or refuse to hire either. But the government should also not force me to hire either. Jesus chose to eat with sinners, and he didn't rebuke those who chose not to do so. A person with deeply held religious convictions should not be forced by the government to embrace sin, or be forced to invite sin into their business. Whether that is paying for abortion or contraception, or hiring people who engage in behavior the owners religious beliefs codify as sinful.

That is religious freedom.

It's not like we just made this stuff up last year...it has been a part of our religion for millenia. The prohibitions against homosexuality are recorded in the very first book of the Bible...Genesis 19:4-5 and continue through out the Old Testament and into the New...Jesus reiterated the proclamations that God had made them male and female...and that a man should leave his father and mother and be joined with his wife. There isn't any room for discussion in that statement.

Two meanings of religious freedom/liberty:
1. Freedom of belief, speech, practice.
2. Freedom to restrict services, hate, denigrate, or oppress others.

1. The historical meaning of religious freedom:
This term relates to the personal freedom:

•Of religious belief,
•Of religious speech,
•Of religious assembly with fellow believers,
•Of religious proselytizing and recruitment, and
•To change one's religion from one faith group to another -- or to decide to have no religious affiliation -- or vice-versa.

The individual believer has often been the target of oppression for thinking or speaking unorthodox thoughts, for assembling with and recruiting others, and for changing their religious affiliation. Typically, the aggressors have been large religious groups and governments. Freedom from such oppression is the meaning that we generally use on this web site to refer to any of the four terms: religious freedom, religious liberty, freedom of worship and freedom to worship.

2. A rapidly emerging new meaning of religious freedom: the freedom to discriminate and denigrate:

In recent years, religious freedom is taking on a new meaning: the freedom and liberty of a believer apply their religious beliefs in order to hate, oppress, deny service to, denigrate, discriminate against, and/or reduce the human rights of minorities.

Now, the direction of the oppression has reversed. It is now the believer who is the oppressor -- typically fundamentalist and evangelical Christians and other religious conservatives. Others -- typically some women, as well as sexual, and other minorities -- are the targets. This new meaning is becoming increasingly common. It appears that this change is begin driven by a number of factors:

•The increasing public acceptance of women's use of birth control/contraceptives. This is a practice regarded as a personal decision by most faith groups, but is actively opposed by the Roman Catholic and a few other conservative faith groups.

•The increasing public acceptance of equal rights for sexual minorities including Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgender persons and transsexuals -- the LGBT community (); and

•The increasing percentage of NOTAs in North America. These are individuals who are NOT Affiliated with an organized faith group. Some identify themselves as Agnostics, Atheists secularists, Humanists, free thinkers, etc. Others say that they are spiritual, but not religious.

One interesting feature of this "religious freedom to discriminate" is that it generally has people treating others as they would not wish to be treated themselves. It seems to be little noticed among those who practice or advocate "religious freedom to discriminate" that this way of treating people is a direct contradiction to the Golden Rule, which Jesus required all his followers to practice. See Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31, and the Gospel of Thomas, 6.

Source: Religious freedom & the freedom to discriminate

 

[Missourian]

Religious freedom doesn't include making others follow the "rules" of your religion....that sharia law.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I expect the same consideration.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If a religious person chooses to overlook sin that is completely different than being forced to embrace sin by the government.

It's what you get when you choose to have a secular government, as opposed to one where a religion gets to make the laws of the land.

A secular government that must not infringe religious freedom.

You have the right to own a gun, that doesn't come with the right to murder people with it.

You have a right to practice your religion, that doesn't come with the right to break other laws in the process.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Ok so a mass murderer is forgiven as long as he repents before he dies? But someone who is gay and follows his heart shouldn't be forgiven? You would rather hire a repentant mass murderer then a unrepentant gay person? Sorry to put it in those terms but that is the logical conclusion to that argument.

I hate religion and even I can see how you are ignoring how is failure to repent (stop practicing homosexuality) disqualifies him from working at a religious institution that abhors the practice.

At the same time, religion has all sorts of stupid-ass rules that make no fucking sense and are designed to control the masses and maintain power structures

And, Jesus was black.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Why would anyone mention their sexual preference to an employer?

This misses the point.

The correct question is why should a gay employee fear his employer become aware of his sexual orientation.

The answer is, of course, he shouldn’t.

Unfortunately in much of America controlled by conservatives this is a very real fear.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Religious freedom doesn't include making others follow the "rules" of your religion....that sharia law.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I expect the same consideration.

You are not forced to operate a secular business that would require you by law to violate your religious beliefs.

 

[OldLady]

Private businesses should be allowed to discriminate. I would never use or except a job from a business that does that, but I wouldn't want to take away their right to do business with who they want either.

My question is for LBGT people: why do you want to use or work at a place you aren't welcome? If you are gay why do you want a job or get your wedding cake at Holy Spirit Bakery?

This isn't a 70 years ago and there is one bakery or a few employers there are many in most areas.

It is the in your face attitude. Fags want to antagonize everybody, then they are whining that Jesus was forgiving etc....

Can you kindly provide an example of how you have been antagonized??

Maybe he saw the Gay Pride Parade on the internet.

 

[bodecea]

1. I understand that the Bible says homosexual sex is a sin, but what about other sins like lying, adultery, or re-marrying? Would you refuse to hire someone who had violated the Commandments?

Are those sinners running around and are in your face yelling "I am an adulterer" or "I am a liar?" If your answer is no to those then you already have your answer to your question. I did not address re-marrying because it has different criteria.

To your #2 and #3 questions the answer is the same. Quit the "in your face" attitude and everything will be just fine.

So your stance is as long as your sexual preference is a secret I have no problem? To 2 and 3 you didn't answer at all. How do you reconcile Jesus teachings concerning forgiveness with refusing to hire gay people? That was the question.

Simple, the Bible is bigger than Jesus

That opens a whole other can of worms. If you say I'm allowed to ignore those teachings that don't fit your political narrative you just admitted to use religion as a cover for them. Kind of the point of the question but glad to have it confirmed.

The Bible is the Bible . It contains many passages. Read it

Which version? There are many.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

wjmacguffin ... Let me turn that around for you...should liars and adulterers (those who remarry would also be classified as adulterous) be given special protections under the law?

If a religious person chooses to overlook sin that is completely different than being forced to embrace sin by the government.

Ignorant nonsense.

Government is not ‘forcing’ anyone to ‘embrace sin.’

Religious beliefs are not ‘justification’ for citizens to ignore or violate a necessary, proper, and Constitutional law. (Employment Division v. Smith (1990))

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Those are not religions.

Coming from you, I now understand why you're such a commie.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

You are not forced to operate a secular business that would require you by law to violate your religious beliefs.

Define a "secular" business.

 

[Missourian]

You have the right to own a gun, that doesn't come with the right to murder people with it.

You have a right to practice your religion, that doesn't come with the right to break other laws in the process.

What law am I violating?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm liberal more than anything else, but I like to reach out and try to understand the POV of conservatives so I don't think y'all are one big lump.

In light of the White House's directive reversing anti-discrimination employment rules for gay folks, I was hoping some religious conservatives could help me understand by answering a few questions. (Or, since I know this site, call me an idiotic libturd who hates America.)

1. I understand that the Bible says homosexual sex is a sin, but what about other sins like lying, adultery, or re-marrying? Would you refuse to hire someone who had violated the Commandments?

2. It seems to me that Christ spent most of his time with sinners. How do you reconcile forgiveness and love that Jesus preached with wanting to keep your work free from sinners?

3. Do you feel that hiring someone gay violates your faith? If so, why?

(NOTE: I am not addressing the whole "gay wedding cake" clusterfuck. This is about supporting the White House saying employers can fire or refuse to hire someone based on religion.)

As usual, I'll give respect when respect is shown. Thanks!

Needless to say you’ll get no honest responses from the most on the religious right – you’ll get only lies, ignorance, and fallacies.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

wjmacguffin ... Let me turn that around for you...should liars and adulterers (those who remarry would also be classified as adulterous) be given special protections under the law?

If a religious person chooses to overlook sin that is completely different than being forced to embrace sin by the government.

Let me see if I can help to screw your head on the right way.

The issue is not who gets special protections.

The issue is: Should employers and places of public accommodation be able to use religion to discriminate against those who they consider sinners or offensive to them.

They want to use that ability to discriminate against LGBT people while ignoring everything else that they profess to abhor . It is selective discrimination.

Anyone who thinks that being forced to treat people with equality to forcing them to "embrace sin" should get help to quell the voices in their head telling them that.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

You have the right to own a gun, that doesn't come with the right to murder people with it.

You have a right to practice your religion, that doesn't come with the right to break other laws in the process.

What law am I violating?

Dhaaaaa...Laws against discrimination, dude!!