Holy war comes to Germany

[Saigon]

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

So there are the moderates you claim do not exist.

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh.

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.

Is that the same argument as there were millions of moderate Nazis back before, during and after WWII. The bad Nazis were those involved in war crimes, but the moderates where the ones who didn't act but just believed in the righteousness of the Nazi creed. That's your argument?

No. It isn't. Perhaps try reading what I wrote.

 

[Saigon]

The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?

Fascinating. I didn't know that.

Sure they were. They weren't successful nor free, but street crime was controlled, laws were obeyed, things got done, so government and society did function.

The point is that you hold out a very low bar for nations to cross.

Low street crime, granted, but even in the 1930s both regimes were imprisoning minorities, silencing critics, eyeing up other countries to invade and generally behaving like tyrants.

One cannot say that of Tunisia, Malaysia or dozens of other Islamic countries.

Tunisia just had two political assassinations last year. Doesn't that count as "silencing critics?"

That depends who assasinated who, really, doesn't it?

Tunisia had fully democratic elections yesterday, and Secularists won. This should be see posters here waving their hands in joy, but actually for most Muslim-hating posters here it is bad news, and will be soundly ignored.

In fact, any news about Moderate Islam will be ignored, because it fails to play into the McCarthyist cliches of impending doom and foreign domination.

 

[Rikurzhen]

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

So there are the moderates you claim do not exist.

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh.

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.

Is that the same argument as there were millions of moderate Nazis back before, during and after WWII. The bad Nazis were those involved in war crimes, but the moderates where the ones who didn't act but just believed in the righteousness of the Nazi creed. That's your argument?

No. It isn't. Perhaps try reading what I wrote.

You claimed that there were "moderate" Muslims. Well, there's a spectrum to all beliefs. There are fanatic hockey fans and moderate hockey fans. Same too with Nazis. What's your problem with moderate Nazis? They never lifted a finger to harm anyone, just like moderate Muslims don't engage in beheadings. Why do you favor moderate Muslims and not moderate Nazis?

 

[Esmeralda]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.

O Rly?

List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

There are not hundreds listed there, no where near. And, in fact, many of those listed are PAST organizations, not current. You used hyperbole to formulate was is essentially a lie. Shame on you.

That list doesn't even scratch the surface in fact. There are scores more which go undocumented without official proscription by a state department. I had a relative who was a soldier in Indian-administered Kashmir in the 90s, and he'd recount the number of random Islamic militant groups which would spring up, fade, spring up, etc. in a vicious cycle.

As for past vs. present, what you fail to realize in appealing to this useless point of semantics is that it doesn't matter. You don't think there is a great deal of transference between these groups, or that they share the same ideological fountain? The Arab Mujahideen legions which battles Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the late 80s shifted to Chechnya a few years later and trained the early ranks of Jihadists who went on to slaughter Russian civilians on their home turf.

Its an intricate web of bloodletting.

So say you. If you don't have valid, concrete evidence of a claim, it is meaningless.

 

[Rikurzhen]

The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?

Fascinating. I didn't know that.

Sure they were. They weren't successful nor free, but street crime was controlled, laws were obeyed, things got done, so government and society did function.

The point is that you hold out a very low bar for nations to cross.

Low street crime, granted, but even in the 1930s both regimes were imprisoning minorities, silencing critics, eyeing up other countries to invade and generally behaving like tyrants.

One cannot say that of Tunisia, Malaysia or dozens of other Islamic countries.

Tunisia just had two political assassinations last year. Doesn't that count as "silencing critics?"

That depends who assasinated who, really, doesn't it?

Tunisia had fully democratic elections yesterday, and Secularists won. This should be see posters here waving their hands in joy, but actually for most Muslim-hating posters here it is bad news, and will be soundly ignored.

In fact, any news about Moderate Islam will be ignored, because it fails to play into the McCarthyist cliches of impending doom and foreign domination.

You're attaching too much importance to a freak occurrence. Iraq had elections too. Same with Afghanistan. How did those elections turn out?

Besides, the economy was the top issue in Tunisia - loads of unemployment there, so reaching out for new modes of governance (see Germany in 1930s) isn't something unexpected.

 

[Saigon]

You're casting the army of ISIS as something apart, outside of, "the people" when in fact it represents a part of "the people."

As for Tunisia, why would you attach any significance to an odd-duck event? This is motivated reasoning on your part - you have a conclusion that you favor and you're searching around for evidence to help support that conclusion. Looking at your baby take his first step and concluding that he's destined to by an Olympic marathon champion is similarly nonsensical. After Tunisia has maintained a stable democracy for 50 years, then we can assess what it brings to the world of Islam but right now it's an oddity, perhaps a flash in the pan, perhaps a new vision, hard to tell and because it's hard to tell it should be heavily discounted as evidence in your argument.

Nonsense...did Baader Meinhoff represent "the people" of Germany?

Does the LRA represent "the people" of Uganda or Chad?

They have some support, obviously, but how widespeared that is, and particularly how voluntarily people join them cannot be known.

They could well be forcing recruits to join them - do you know that they are not?

 

[Saigon]

An election following years of dictatorship is a freak occurance??

Or is it a sign of real progress that should be celebrated and encouraged?

Likewise, isn't it about time people acknwledged that a great many Islamic countries have democratic elections, and that those elections often elect moderate and secularist governments?

 

[Shaam]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

There are 40 Islamic countries. You have listed organisations operating in perhaps a half dozen countries.

I totally agree that groups like ISIS hold views incompatable with civilised values, but they are essentially an army fighting a war in two countries. I don't think the values of an army or militia are representative of what people in those countries want or believe.

Just this morning we saw Secularists and Moderates sweep to power in Tunisia - couldn't we as accurately base our view of Islam on what they want?

1) There are more than 40 Islamic countries. The fact that you admit these groups are operating in several countries disproves what you said earlier about it just being "ISIS and the Taliban".

2) ISIS is a non-state actor which is killing and raping innocent people, and almost everything they do can be justified theologically if you examine the life the Prophet Mohammed and the sahabah. That is what is most disconcerting.

3) No, the secularists and moderates cannot be viewed as reflective of Islam when Islam is diametrically opposed to both alien notions.......just as it is to human rights, women's rights, freedom religion, freedom of expression and conscience, etc, etc.

 

[Rikurzhen]

You're casting the army of ISIS as something apart, outside of, "the people" when in fact it represents a part of "the people."

As for Tunisia, why would you attach any significance to an odd-duck event? This is motivated reasoning on your part - you have a conclusion that you favor and you're searching around for evidence to help support that conclusion. Looking at your baby take his first step and concluding that he's destined to by an Olympic marathon champion is similarly nonsensical. After Tunisia has maintained a stable democracy for 50 years, then we can assess what it brings to the world of Islam but right now it's an oddity, perhaps a flash in the pan, perhaps a new vision, hard to tell and because it's hard to tell it should be heavily discounted as evidence in your argument.

Nonsense...did Baader Meinhoff represent "the people" of Germany?

Does the LRA represent "the people" of Uganda or Chad?

They have some support, obviously, but how widespeared that is, and particularly how voluntarily people join them cannot be known.

They could well be forcing recruits to join them - do you know that they are not?

Baader Meinhoff, a handful of people, are not comparable to ISIS, an actual army fighting a very real war. Besides, ISIS has popular support:

The Sakina Campaign plans to carry out a scientific survey to determine the position of the Saudi public on the "caliphate" announced by the Islamic State (IS) in Iraq and Syria. This comes after the results of an opinion poll of Saudis were released on social networking sites, claiming that 92% of the target group believes that "IS conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."​

 

[Rikurzhen]

An election following years of dictatorship is a freak occurance??

Or is it a sign of real progress that should be celebrated and encouraged?

Likewise, isn't it about time people acknwledged that a great many Islamic countries have democratic elections, and that those elections often elect moderate and secularist governments?

Last time I looked, Russia has elections too. Are you rejoicing about how free Russia is these days?

 

[Saigon]

Rikurzhen -

Russia is not free. Tunisia is.

Not difficult stuff, this.

 

[Saigon]

Rik -

The fact remains that there is no more evidence that ISIS represents the will of the Syrian or Iraqi people any more than any other terrorist group or militia can claim that - particularly when they are using forced recruitment.

I see them as being largely a home for fighters drifting into their ranks after yeats fighting for or against Saddam or from other anti-Assad groups. I don't find it surprising that they recruit a few thousand men that way.

 

[Saigon]

Shaan -

Terror groups exist in any force in perhaps 6 of 40 Islmic countries, 3 of which are at war. I don't find that wildly shocking myself. The same could be said of Christin countries in Afrrica, albeit with groups less of a threat to the west.

You can claim moderation and human rights are incompatable with Islam, and yet both exist in the Islamic world to a faur extent. When I compare Turkey or Tunisia or Malaysia with, say, Georgia, Liberia or Philippines, I don't see a yawning gulf.

Is Christianity compatable with human rights, or is the problem more regional thn religious?

 

[Sunni Man]

You're attaching too much importance to a freak occurrence. Iraq had elections too. Same with Afghanistan. How did those elections turn out?

The Iraq and Afghanistan elections were held by an occupying force (the U.S.).

Whereas, the Tunisian elections were a result of the people wanting to decide their destiny by voting.

Big difference.........

 

[irosie91]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.

Esmeralda----your post makes no sense at all. You revealed the fact that you do not understand the word HYPERBOLE. There is nothing about the post that
suggests that the poster is anything related to your filth of Islamic anything

 

[irosie91]

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

So there are the moderates you claim do not exist.

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh.

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.

your post makes no sense-----I do not drink beer either-----nothing to do with
religion-----that stuff tastes like poison. What are you calling a "moderate muslim"????

 

[irosie91]

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

So there are the moderates you claim do not exist.

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh.

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.

Is that the same argument as there were millions of moderate Nazis back before, during and after WWII. The bad Nazis were those involved in war crimes, but the moderates where the ones who didn't act but just believed in the righteousness of the Nazi creed. That's your argument?

Nope------Nazis like you who are not camp guards are not "moderates" by my definition of moderate

 

[High_Gravity]

It's a religious war and no one can escape.

Germany Holy War Erupts in Hamburg

Parts of downtown Hamburg, the second-largest city in Germany, resembled a war zone after hundreds of supporters of the jihadist group Islamic State [IS] engaged in bloody street clashes with ethnic Kurds.
The violence—which police say was as ferocious as anything seen in Germany in recent memory—is fuelling a sense of foreboding about the spillover effects of the fighting in Syria and Iraq.
Some analysts believe that rival Muslim groups in Germany are deliberately exploiting the ethnic and religious tensions in the Middle East to stir up trouble on the streets of Europe.
The unrest began on the evening of October 7, when around 400 Kurds gathered outside the Al-Nour mosque near the central train station in Hamburg's St. George district to protest against IS attacks on the Syrian Kurdish town of Kobani.
According to police, the initially peaceful protest turned violent when the Kurds were confronted by a rival group of around 400 Salafists armed with baseball bats, brass knuckles, knives, machetes and metal rods used to hold meat in kebab restaurants.

Are the Kurds the only Muslims against ISIS?

 

[Shaam]

Shaan -

Terror groups exist in any force in perhaps 6 of 40 Islmic countries, 3 of which are at war. I don't find that wildly shocking myself. The same could be said of Christin countries in Afrrica, albeit with groups less of a threat to the west.

You can claim moderation and human rights are incompatable with Islam, and yet both exist in the Islamic world to a faur extent. When I compare Turkey or Tunisia or Malaysia with, say, Georgia, Liberia or Philippines, I don't see a yawning gulf.

Is Christianity compatable with human rights, or is the problem more regional thn religious?

Once again, there are more than 40 Muslim-majority countries. The official figure is 57 if you include the Palestinian authority.

Terrorist groups exist en masse in Muslim AND non-Muslim countries. In countries like Israel, India or Russia, there are several Islamist groups which have actively perpetrated terrorism......so where on earth do you compute a sum total of "6", LOL??

Yes, moderation and human rights are antithetical with Islam, and even still there are Muslim countries which uphold those provisions- but how does that invalidate any of my commentary? Islam is the Qu'ran and ahadith, not Turks, Tunisians, and Malaysians who may/may no act in accordance to the prescribed parameters of their faith.

As for Christian "extremists" in Africa- they are largely a product of Christian militia groups who seek vengeance for Muslim instigation of conflict. Do you really think, left to their own devices and disassociated from civil war-esque scenarios , they'd be behaving in the same manner?

 

[Saigon]

Shaam -

I don't think many of us judge Israel's human rights records on the Talmud, nor do we judge Ireland's on the Bible.

To my mind there is a natural evolutionary process in all of our socities that as standards of education improve and standards of living rise, so peoples' lifestyles evolve. They may maintain religious and cultural traditions, but they do so within a society in which work and schools and sports and entertainment play a stronger role than they did in 1925.

I can think of plenty of Christian countries where terror ruled within my lifetime - Ireland, Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Spain and Greece to name a few. In how many of those countries do we see regular acts of terrorism today?

The main factors for that change is improving standards of living and education.

We now see the same development in Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia, to name a few. I am completely confidant that we will see people maintain Islamic traditions (and I hope they do) but in a much more tolerant and moderate form than was the case 20 years ago.

As for the number of Muslim-dominated countries, I see Wikipedia now says 49. I thought it was 40 last time I checked, but I could be wrong. There are several in Africa that are difficult to call either way, such as Senegal or Ghana. 57 sounds high to me.

I stand by my point that terrorism is only widespread in a half-dozen Muslim countries, such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan of course, and I might also include Somalia, Pakistan and Libya. One could make a case for Chechenya, but that is fairly quiet these days.