Holy war comes to Germany

[Shaam]

Shaan -

So if all of the countries you have been to were safe, peaceful, functioning societies, how are they irreconcilable with reality?

I never said they were. I said Islam is incompatible with humanity.

Islam's core doctrine calls for incessant, unabated warfare against non-Muslims until the entire world is ruled by the faithful (Muslims). It is the final surah (chapter) delivered to Mohammad by Allah in the Qur'an, and according to the doctrine of abrogation embedded within the Qur'an itself, would qualify as superseding any and all calls for peaceful co-existence with infidels/only waging war as a defensive measure.

Jews and Christians should be tolerated as subjugated citizens to Islamic hegemony- but there is no provision requiring Muslims treat people of other orientations be they Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Zoroastrian, atheist, agnostic, etc. with the same accord.

Whether or not Muslims around the world read into this stuff quite literally, which thankfully most don't- it still doesn't discount the inherent problem with Islam.

 

[Rikurzhen]

The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?

Fascinating. I didn't know that.

Sure they were. They weren't successful nor free, but street crime was controlled, laws were obeyed, things got done, so government and society did function.

The point is that you hold out a very low bar for nations to cross.

 

[Saigon]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

As long as countries like many of those you have been to are stable and peaceful and doing well, I don't see a problem.

 

[Rikurzhen]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

As long as countries like many of those you have been to are stable and peaceful and doing well, I don't see a problem.

Who takes it literally?

A Pakistani Christian woman has been sentenced to hang after she was accused of making 'blasphemous' comments about the prophet Mohammed during an argument.

While working as a berry picker in 2009, 46-year-old Asia Bibi got into a dispute with a group of Muslim women who objected to her drinking their water because as a Christian she was considered 'unclean'.

Hours after the incident one of the women reported mother-of-five Ms Bibi to a local cleric, claiming she had made disparaging remarks about the prophet Mohammed during the row.

As a result of the allegations, a furious mob arrived at Ms Bibi's home and savagely beat her and members of her family.

She was later arrested, charged with blasphemy and eventually sentenced to death - with her entire family forced to go into hiding after receiving threats on their lives.

This week, despite international outrage and hundreds of thousands of people signing a petition for her release, Ms Bibi lost an appeal to have her sentence overturned, meaning she now faces death by hanging.

The shocking case hit global headlines after two prominent politicians who tried to help Ms Bibi were assassinated, one by his own bodyguard.

Lawyers showered the killer with rose petals when he appeared in court and the judge who convicted him of murder had to flee the country.​

 

[Shaam]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

 

[Esmeralda]

Why the hell won't the western nations start cleaning up this mess? Arm their citizens and start sweeping the streets. It'll be happening here before you know it.

Like in Nazi Germany?

 

[Esmeralda]

Rosie -

A religious war is - by definition - one between different religions. A war within a religion would be better described as an internecine conflict.

The thing that makes me laugh is that people like Katz complain that moderate Muslims do take a firm stand against extremists. And yet when they do, he condemns them anyway.

Is Katz a man? Always thought Katz was a woman.....

 

[Esmeralda]

To me a moderate muslim is any who drinks beer----------most educated muslims in the USA ----drink beer

LOL......a muslim who drinks beer isn't really a muslim. ....

Turkey is 90% Muslim, and drinking is common there. There are mini-marts on practically every corner in Izmir, and they are open until quite late at night. They sell beer, wine, and liquor. It is easier to get alcohol in Turkey than it is in Austria.

 

[irosie91]

To me a moderate muslim is any who drinks beer----------most educated muslims in the USA ----drink beer

LOL......a muslim who drinks beer isn't really a muslim. ....

Turkey is 90% Muslim, and drinking is common there. There are mini-marts on practically every corner in Izmir, and they are open until quite late at night. They sell beer, wine, and liquor. It is easier to get alcohol in Turkey than it is in Austria.

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

 

[Esmeralda]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.

 

[Shaam]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.

O Rly?

List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Meathead]

About 98% of Turkey is Muslim. Their intolerance for other religions was genocidal for the Christian Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians who inhabited those lands well before the Turks arrived.

 

[Esmeralda]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.

O Rly?

List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

There are not hundreds listed there, nowhere near. And, in fact, many of those listed are PAST organizations, not current. You used hyperbole to formulate what is essentially a lie. Shame on you.

 

[Shaam]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.

O Rly?

List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

There are not hundreds listed there, no where near. And, in fact, many of those listed are PAST organizations, not current. You used hyperbole to formulate was is essentially a lie. Shame on you.

That list doesn't even scratch the surface in fact. There are scores more which go undocumented without official proscription by a state department. I had a relative who was a soldier in Indian-administered Kashmir in the 90s, and he'd recount the number of random Islamic militant groups which would spring up, fade, spring up, etc. in a vicious cycle.

As for past vs. present, what you fail to realize in appealing to this useless point of semantics is that it doesn't matter. You don't think there is a great deal of transference between these groups, or that they share the same ideological fountain? The Arab Mujahideen legions which battles Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the late 80s shifted to Chechnya a few years later and trained the early ranks of Jihadists who went on to slaughter Russian civilians on their home turf.

Its an intricate web of bloodletting.

 

[Saigon]

The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?

Fascinating. I didn't know that.

Sure they were. They weren't successful nor free, but street crime was controlled, laws were obeyed, things got done, so government and society did function.

The point is that you hold out a very low bar for nations to cross.

Low street crime, granted, but even in the 1930s both regimes were imprisoning minorities, silencing critics, eyeing up other countries to invade and generally behaving like tyrants.

One cannot say that of Tunisia, Malaysia or dozens of other Islamic countries.

 

[Saigon]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

There are 40 Islamic countries. You have listed organisations operating in perhaps a half dozen countries.

I totally agree that groups like ISIS hold views incompatable with civilised values, but they are essentially an army fighting a war in two countries. I don't think the values of an army or militia are representative of what people in those countries want or believe.

Just this morning we saw Secularists and Moderates sweep to power in Tunisia - couldn't we as accurately base our view of Islam on what they want?

 

[Saigon]

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

So there are the moderates you claim do not exist.

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh.

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.

 

[Rikurzhen]

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different issues.

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.

There are 40 Islamic countries. You have listed organisations operating in perhaps a half dozen countries.

I totally agree that groups like ISIS hold views incompatable with civilised values, but they are essentially an army fighting a war in two countries. I don't think the values of an army or militia are representative of what people in those countries want or believe.

Just this morning we saw Secularists and Moderates sweep to power in Tunisia - couldn't we as accurately base our view of Islam on what they want?

What do you believe an army is if not people volunteering to a common cause? Recruitment into ISIS is outpacing war casualties. This signals that the movement's ideals are widely held and popular enough for men, and women, to risk their lives in order to bring about a new vision of Islamic society.

You're casting the army of ISIS as something apart, outside of, "the people" when in fact it represents a part of "the people."

As for Tunisia, why would you attach any significance to an odd-duck event? This is motivated reasoning on your part - you have a conclusion that you favor and you're searching around for evidence to help support that conclusion. Looking at your baby take his first step and concluding that he's destined to by an Olympic marathon champion is similarly nonsensical. After Tunisia has maintained a stable democracy for 50 years, then we can assess what it brings to the world of Islam but right now it's an oddity, perhaps a flash in the pan, perhaps a new vision, hard to tell and because it's hard to tell it should be heavily discounted as evidence in your argument.

 

[Rikurzhen]

So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"

So there are the moderates you claim do not exist.

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh.

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.

Is that the same argument as there were millions of moderate Nazis back before, during and after WWII. The bad Nazis were those involved in war crimes, but the moderates where the ones who didn't act but just believed in the righteousness of the Nazi creed. That's your argument?

 

[Rikurzhen]

The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?

Fascinating. I didn't know that.

Sure they were. They weren't successful nor free, but street crime was controlled, laws were obeyed, things got done, so government and society did function.

The point is that you hold out a very low bar for nations to cross.

Low street crime, granted, but even in the 1930s both regimes were imprisoning minorities, silencing critics, eyeing up other countries to invade and generally behaving like tyrants.

One cannot say that of Tunisia, Malaysia or dozens of other Islamic countries.

Tunisia just had two political assassinations last year. Doesn't that count as "silencing critics?"