Holocaust Evidence

[grapple]

There was no gas chamber. Neither were there anywhere. So suck it.

Revisionist history. The evidence is in the German files and admitted to by many of the participants.

Does the term "delusional brainwashed kweer" hold any significance for you when you look in a mirror? In warfare, demonizing the enemy is a tactic as old as the hills. Just about everything you have heard and continue to hear about Hitler and WW II in general is an outright lie! Do you know what it means when "history is written by the victors?" It means that things like German files are faked too.

As for what any Germans may have "admitted," people who are tortured are known to admit to much. Are you so stupid as to think that the allies didn't torture too? To illustrate my point, consider this. About 280,000 jews died in jewish internment camps from disease outbreaks and lack of food. None were gassed. The main reason for the disease outbreaks and lack of food was due to Germany getting the shit bombed out of it. But after the war, the allies took many ex-German soldiers and held them in Europe as prisoners of ex-war. The allied forces lacked for nothing. But under the "care" of the Americans, British and French, 1.5 to 1.7 million of them were murdered!

Don't believe it? Enter into your browser "Eisenhower's Holocaust." Thank your lucky fuckin stars that I'm not allowed to tell more of the REAL truth around here to the degree that I would like to.

Just because history is written by the victors, and demonizing the enemy is a part of warfare, that doesn't mean everything they say is false. That's not logical. Within everything that is said there is usually some part truth to it, and some part interpretation.

Nothing that Creep says is of any factuality ,I expected better from you Frigid

On both sides I'm seeing a lack of logic.

On one side it's "the Holocaust happened because I know it happened" and on the other "the Holocaust didn't happen because I know it didn't happen". What's the point of just declaring what you've decided you know? People need to use evidence and their brain.

I hope you're not saying that I said the holocaust never happened. Because it did. The point is that it is all largely horseshit. Before war put an end to the program, Germany deported 60 to 70% of its jews to Palestine under The Haavara Agreement. That doesn't sound like much of a genocide to me. Also, I could include a couple of documents. One of which was from the International Red Cross. They say that only about 280,000 jews died in jewish internment camps. ("death camps") And why did they die? Basically because of the Allies bombing the shit out of Germany!

 

[grapple]

Revisionist history. The evidence is in the German files and admitted to by many of the participants.

Does the term "delusional brainwashed kweer" hold any significance for you when you look in a mirror? In warfare, demonizing the enemy is a tactic as old as the hills. Just about everything you have heard and continue to hear about Hitler and WW II in general is an outright lie! Do you know what it means when "history is written by the victors?" It means that things like German files are faked too.

As for what any Germans may have "admitted," people who are tortured are known to admit to much. Are you so stupid as to think that the allies didn't torture too? To illustrate my point, consider this. About 280,000 jews died in jewish internment camps from disease outbreaks and lack of food. None were gassed. The main reason for the disease outbreaks and lack of food was due to Germany getting the shit bombed out of it. But after the war, the allies took many ex-German soldiers and held them in Europe as prisoners of ex-war. The allied forces lacked for nothing. But under the "care" of the Americans, British and French, 1.5 to 1.7 million of them were murdered!

Don't believe it? Enter into your browser "Eisenhower's Holocaust." Thank your lucky fuckin stars that I'm not allowed to tell more of the REAL truth around here to the degree that I would like to.

Just because history is written by the victors, and demonizing the enemy is a part of warfare, that doesn't mean everything they say is false. That's not logical. Within everything that is said there is usually some part truth to it, and some part interpretation.

Nothing that Creep says is of any factuality ,I expected better from you Frigid

On both sides I'm seeing a lack of logic.

On one side it's "the Holocaust happened because I know it happened" and on the other "the Holocaust didn't happen because I know it didn't happen". What's the point of just declaring what you've decided you know? People need to use evidence and their brain.

Wrong we have reams of evidence the Holocaust happened, pictures people testimony, physical evidence documents film court cases and verdicts. The evidence is a mountain.

Didn't I earlier show you a couple of pictures of a swimming pool they had for inmates at Auschwitz? And that place is said to have been the worst of the worst "death camp." Fuck your mountain if evidence. LOOK AT THE PICTURES! Are you too far gone to believe your own eyes?!

 

[grapple]

Just because history is written by the victors, and demonizing the enemy is a part of warfare, that doesn't mean everything they say is false. That's not logical. Within everything that is said there is usually some part truth to it, and some part interpretation.

Nothing that Creep says is of any factuality ,I expected better from you Frigid

On both sides I'm seeing a lack of logic.

On one side it's "the Holocaust happened because I know it happened" and on the other "the Holocaust didn't happen because I know it didn't happen". What's the point of just declaring what you've decided you know? People need to use evidence and their brain.

Wrong we have reams of evidence the Holocaust happened, pictures people testimony, physical evidence documents film court cases and verdicts. The evidence is a mountain.

You say I'm wrong, and then go and provide evidence for something else other than what I said.

Yes, there's lots of evidence the Holocaust happened. That doesn't mean you can come on here and just demand that everyone accept what you say.

LOL it happened but we can not tell people it happened? We can't expect people to except reality and facts? What delusional world do you live in?

Apparently around here you're not allowed to tell anybody that it didn't happen. Look up the thread, "The Holocaust. The Fake Evidence." Ponder why that thread was closed down to debate but this bullshit thread will probably go on and on.

 

[grapple]

Not a very good retort. What does that have to do with holocaust evidence. Also, would you care to talk about ignorance? If I was allowed to say what I wanted to say, then maybe we could talk more about "ignorance." But as far as holocaust evidence goes, I found an interesting thread I can direct you to. Go to that little search box near the top of the page and enter into it, "The Holocaust. The Fake History." Then hit enter.

Here is an interesting point about REAL ignorance. This thread was started to make the bullshit claim that there was holocaust evidence. No doubt it will remain open. (Unless my responses cause the mods to close it) The thread I pointed you too was closed down to debate and the person who wrote it was banned. If that doesn't tell you something, nothing I can say will make any sense to you.

It tells me that after your thread got locked and you were banned, you opened a new account, and by way of referencing this old thread; are attempting to rekindle discussion on the matter. How'd I do?

I would rather tell you how you do. In the form of telling me anything I said anywhere, under whatever guise you would like to imagine, what I said that is wrong. Or would you prefer to try to get me banned. And make that nasty ole truth just go away.

Not a very good retort. What does that have to do with holocaust evidence. Also, would you care to talk about ignorance? If I was allowed to say what I wanted to say, then maybe we could talk more about "ignorance." But as far as holocaust evidence goes, I found an interesting thread I can direct you to. Go to that little search box near the top of the page and enter into it, "The Holocaust. The Fake History." Then hit enter.

Here is an interesting point about REAL ignorance. This thread was started to make the bullshit claim that there was holocaust evidence. No doubt it will remain open. (Unless my responses cause the mods to close it) The thread I pointed you too was closed down to debate and the person who wrote it was banned. If that doesn't tell you something, nothing I can say will make any sense to you.

80 years of evidence numerous courts millions of eye witnesses and convictions, written records photographic evidence physical evidence all prove you are a fool , delusional or simply a liar.

I take it that you didn't look up the thread I mentioned then. That's right. Choose to remain ignorant and claim like a delusional person to know what you are talking about. I don't think that approach is going to serve you well. By the way, I left a reply in a thread in the history section called "The Jewish Genocide." In It, I mentioned your username. (Or should I say losername) Seeing how it isn't closed down to debate like the other thread, maybe you might be willing to share some delusional thoughts on it.

Let me tell you what your doing wrong here mini-Eichman

Baby adolph, tough guy behind a keyboard. I have to ask what is your experience in the military ?

Why engage rejects like this? He is beyond ignorant and won't change. His idea of debate is to start name calling the instant something is said he disagrees with. He has proven it in this thread repeatedly.

Not a very good retort. What does that have to do with holocaust evidence. Also, would you care to talk about ignorance? If I was allowed to say what I wanted to say, then maybe we could talk more about "ignorance." But as far as holocaust evidence goes, I found an interesting thread I can direct you to. Go to that little search box near the top of the page and enter into it, "The Holocaust. The Fake History." Then hit enter.

Here is an interesting point about REAL ignorance. This thread was started to make the bullshit claim that there was holocaust evidence. No doubt it will remain open. (Unless my responses cause the mods to close it) The thread I pointed you too was closed down to debate and the person who wrote it was banned. If that doesn't tell you something, nothing I can say will make any sense to you.

I would have debated you with glee, I believe wholeheartedly in freedom of speech but you called my grandfather. a liar, a man that spent 26 years in the service so that people like yourself could freely come on to sites like this and insult people. So I'm going to ignore you and your"proof" mini-mengele.

What EXACTLY did your grandfather tell you. So I can be a little more specific about the lies he told you.

The only liar around here is you you dumb ass, there are REAMS of evidence to prove the holocaust only delusional bed wetters and Nazis claim otherwise.

Face it. You just want to pretend that the holocaust happened as it is generally believed to have happened. You have absolutely no interest in the truth. ADMIT it to me you pathetic worm!

 

[grapple]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

Those old people aren't being hounded because they were guilty of anything. They were being hounded to support the demonization of the Nazis.

 

[grapple]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

why does it "bug" you? I doubt that the citizens of Germany would object other then the few Nazis left there. Eichmann was not a criminal according to the laws of Germany at the time he worked there but he was a criminal according to present German law. Germany did not object to his abduction Osama bin Laden was not a criminal according to Shariah law. Pakistan did object to his abduction and the doctor who helped locate him was jailed. Relatives of the victims of Osama bin Laden---did not object to his
execution.
You are living in the wrong country, penny, dear

It was a war, and you need to get over it. To make WWII about Jews is wrong.

for jews, World War II was very important because people like
you were intent upon annihilating all of the jews in the world and did
manage to murder a very SIGNIFICANT portion of the entire world's
jewish population. The jews that your people murdered were not killed
IN WAR. I see no reason for the jews of the world to "get over
it" I can understand that for you-----it was just another failed attempt.
Approximately 2000 years ago-----a jewish girl gave birth to a baby-----just another baby------yet millions of "Christians" seem to have NOT GOTTEN
OVER IT. In fact ---during the same period of time ----romans were busy
crucifying TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE-----and also feeding
people-----as an entertainment---for people like you----to their lions.
Yet there are millions of 'Christians' in the world who have not "gotten over"
the incidental crucifixion of just another innocent Pharisee man. ----and then
there is the case of a whore named amina----who dropped a bastard she
named muhummad---in a trading town in Arabia----generally a caravan stop-over------lots of people have yet to get over it. Does that fact annoy you too?

Bullshit. If the Germans wanted to annihilate the jews, why did Germany deport 60 to 70% of its jews to Palestine under The Haavara Agreement? And why did around 150,000 Jews actually fight FOR the Nazis.

 

[grapple]

I should add----my mom told me about the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE (circa 1915)
that took place before SHE was born-------when I was about seven---which was
probably before you were born. 20 years later I was treating an ARMENIAN
woman-----for progressive cardiac failure. She was still talking about the annihilation of her family-----in 1915. She never got over it.

Did she tell you it was the jews that did it? Look at the thread a little lower in the listings here called "The Jewish Genocide."

 

[Vastator]

Something tells me Cultsmasher will be back...

 

[anotherlife]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

Even worse, these Nazi hunters use kidnappings to get their targets, because they can't use the legal official processes of asking foreign countries about their citizens.

 

[anotherlife]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

why does it "bug" you? I doubt that the citizens of Germany would object other then the few Nazis left there. Eichmann was not a criminal according to the laws of Germany at the time he worked there but he was a criminal according to present German law. Germany did not object to his abduction Osama bin Laden was not a criminal according to Shariah law. Pakistan did object to his abduction and the doctor who helped locate him was jailed. Relatives of the victims of Osama bin Laden---did not object to his
execution.
You are living in the wrong country, penny, dear

How does this logic work? If a policeman does to you today what is legal but not legal tomorrow, then will you kidnap him and hang him tomorrow? How can any country function if that is what is called legally justifiable?

 

[Vastator]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

why does it "bug" you? I doubt that the citizens of Germany would object other then the few Nazis left there. Eichmann was not a criminal according to the laws of Germany at the time he worked there but he was a criminal according to present German law. Germany did not object to his abduction Osama bin Laden was not a criminal according to Shariah law. Pakistan did object to his abduction and the doctor who helped locate him was jailed. Relatives of the victims of Osama bin Laden---did not object to his
execution.
You are living in the wrong country, penny, dear

How does this logic work? If a policeman does to you today what is legal but not legal tomorrow, then will you kidnap him and hang him tomorrow? How can any country function if that is what is called legally justifiable?

Because might makes right.

 

[anotherlife]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

why does it "bug" you? I doubt that the citizens of Germany would object other then the few Nazis left there. Eichmann was not a criminal according to the laws of Germany at the time he worked there but he was a criminal according to present German law. Germany did not object to his abduction Osama bin Laden was not a criminal according to Shariah law. Pakistan did object to his abduction and the doctor who helped locate him was jailed. Relatives of the victims of Osama bin Laden---did not object to his
execution.
You are living in the wrong country, penny, dear

How does this logic work? If a policeman does to you today what is legal but not legal tomorrow, then will you kidnap him and hang him tomorrow? How can any country function if that is what is called legally justifiable?

Because might makes right.

Yes, and now the Jews are the mightiest. The Nazis have never been all that nightly, but the Jews are. Even the Nazis weren't kidnapping foreign citizens abroad.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Revisionist history. The evidence is in the German files and admitted to by many of the participants.

Does the term "delusional brainwashed kweer" hold any significance for you when you look in a mirror? In warfare, demonizing the enemy is a tactic as old as the hills. Just about everything you have heard and continue to hear about Hitler and WW II in general is an outright lie! Do you know what it means when "history is written by the victors?" It means that things like German files are faked too.

As for what any Germans may have "admitted," people who are tortured are known to admit to much. Are you so stupid as to think that the allies didn't torture too? To illustrate my point, consider this. About 280,000 jews died in jewish internment camps from disease outbreaks and lack of food. None were gassed. The main reason for the disease outbreaks and lack of food was due to Germany getting the shit bombed out of it. But after the war, the allies took many ex-German soldiers and held them in Europe as prisoners of ex-war. The allied forces lacked for nothing. But under the "care" of the Americans, British and French, 1.5 to 1.7 million of them were murdered!

Don't believe it? Enter into your browser "Eisenhower's Holocaust." Thank your lucky fuckin stars that I'm not allowed to tell more of the REAL truth around here to the degree that I would like to.

Just because history is written by the victors, and demonizing the enemy is a part of warfare, that doesn't mean everything they say is false. That's not logical. Within everything that is said there is usually some part truth to it, and some part interpretation.

Nothing that Creep says is of any factuality ,I expected better from you Frigid

On both sides I'm seeing a lack of logic.

On one side it's "the Holocaust happened because I know it happened" and on the other "the Holocaust didn't happen because I know it didn't happen". What's the point of just declaring what you've decided you know? People need to use evidence and their brain.

I hope you're not saying that I said the holocaust never happened. Because it did. The point is that it is all largely horseshit. Before war put an end to the program, Germany deported 60 to 70% of its jews to Palestine under The Haavara Agreement. That doesn't sound like much of a genocide to me. Also, I could include a couple of documents. One of which was from the International Red Cross. They say that only about 280,000 jews died in jewish internment camps. ("death camps") And why did they die? Basically because of the Allies bombing the shit out of Germany!

No, I'm not saying that.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Scratch marks on the inside an Auschwitz gas chamber

40 of the Most Powerful Images Ever Captured on Film - Page 39 of 41 - coViral

There was no gas chamber. Neither were there anywhere. So suck it.

Revisionist history. The evidence is in the German files and admitted to by many of the participants.

Does the term "delusional brainwashed kweer" hold any significance for you when you look in a mirror? In warfare, demonizing the enemy is a tactic as old as the hills. Just about everything you have heard and continue to hear about Hitler and WW II in general is an outright lie! Do you know what it means when "history is written by the victors?" It means that things like German files are faked too.

As for what any Germans may have "admitted," people who are tortured are known to admit to much. Are you so stupid as to think that the allies didn't torture too? To illustrate my point, consider this. About 280,000 jews died in jewish internment camps from disease outbreaks and lack of food. None were gassed. The main reason for the disease outbreaks and lack of food was due to Germany getting the shit bombed out of it. But after the war, the allies took many ex-German soldiers and held them in Europe as prisoners of ex-war. The allied forces lacked for nothing. But under the "care" of the Americans, British and French, 1.5 to 1.7 million of them were murdered!

Don't believe it? Enter into your browser "Eisenhower's Holocaust." Thank your lucky fuckin stars that I'm not allowed to tell more of the REAL truth around here to the degree that I would like to.

Just because history is written by the victors, and demonizing the enemy is a part of warfare, that doesn't mean everything they say is false. That's not logical. Within everything that is said there is usually some part truth to it, and some part interpretation.

No. There was some truth being told. The U.S. did officially go to war with Germany. The U.S. did invade Normandy. There was a general named Patton. And so on and so on. But the lies outweigh the truths by a long shot. And what really doesn't help is simply not being allowed to discuss the truth. There is a thread around here you might be interested in looking up. If you are interested in some real truth. It's called, "The Holocaust. The Fake History." The mods helped crush the truth by closing the thread down to further debate.

You say there is some truth, how much truth? More lies than truth? Sounds a little hard to say how many truths there are in a war and how many lies.
You don't need many lies, and often the lies are attached to the truth.

Yes, the issues around not being able to discuss the Holocaust are a problem, people dress things up as something and then decide it's already accepted what happened. Most for the interests of the right wing Jews. There was a story about school kids in Taiwan learning about WW2 and dressing up as Nazis and doing a little parade. The teacher got sacked because Israel complained, totally ridiculous, as if the Taiwanese have much interested in what happened in Europe in WW2.

Seems Grapple got banned. Is it simply because he came on here and started talking about the holocaust?

 

[irosie91]

I should add----my mom told me about the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE (circa 1915)
that took place before SHE was born-------when I was about seven---which was
probably before you were born. 20 years later I was treating an ARMENIAN
woman-----for progressive cardiac failure. She was still talking about the annihilation of her family-----in 1915. She never got over it.

Did she tell you it was the jews that did it? Look at the thread a little lower in the listings here called "The Jewish Genocide."

no----it was turks-------they did it for "allah"

 

[irosie91]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

why does it "bug" you? I doubt that the citizens of Germany would object other then the few Nazis left there. Eichmann was not a criminal according to the laws of Germany at the time he worked there but he was a criminal according to present German law. Germany did not object to his abduction Osama bin Laden was not a criminal according to Shariah law. Pakistan did object to his abduction and the doctor who helped locate him was jailed. Relatives of the victims of Osama bin Laden---did not object to his
execution.
You are living in the wrong country, penny, dear

How does this logic work? If a policeman does to you today what is legal but not legal tomorrow, then will you kidnap him and hang him tomorrow? How can any country function if that is what is called legally justifiable?

Eichmann was not a policeman. Osama bin Laden was not a policeman

 

[Toro]

Re:holocaust deniers

There sure are a lot of moronic idiots in the world.

 

[irosie91]

Eichmann was not a criminal. Like most modern civil servants, he followed the laws and regulations of his country blindly. Why do we knock Eichmann, when we expect the same from our officials?

You know what really bugs me is they are still going around finding aged German soldiers, even an accountant in his mid nineties and prosecuting them and Germany allows this BS, they were doing their job, if they didn't they were shot or sent to a concentration camp.

why does it "bug" you? I doubt that the citizens of Germany would object other then the few Nazis left there. Eichmann was not a criminal according to the laws of Germany at the time he worked there but he was a criminal according to present German law. Germany did not object to his abduction Osama bin Laden was not a criminal according to Shariah law. Pakistan did object to his abduction and the doctor who helped locate him was jailed. Relatives of the victims of Osama bin Laden---did not object to his
execution.
You are living in the wrong country, penny, dear

How does this logic work? If a policeman does to you today what is legal but not legal tomorrow, then will you kidnap him and hang him tomorrow? How can any country function if that is what is called legally justifiable?

Because might makes right.

Yes, and now the Jews are the mightiest. The Nazis have never been all that nightly, but the Jews are. Even the Nazis weren't kidnapping foreign citizens abroad.

The concept that the mass murder of people by the Nazis was a criminal
act has already been determined to be true by the Court at Nuremburg

 

[ding]

The Holocaust myth is the biggest ponzi scam in the history of the world. .....

In one room, where they were piled up twenty or thirty naked men, killed by starvation, George Patton would not even enter. He said that he would get sick if he did so. I made the visit deliberately, in order to be in a position to give first-hand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to “propaganda.”

Dwight D. Eisenhower

Ohrdruf

But at least Vastator and Penelope agree with you. So you got that going for you.

 

[theliq]

No Sunni,My father too was an administrator responsible for checking the ID's etc of the remaining "Inmates".,during and after the liberation of these Concentration Camps, he had his own pics,and disgusting they were,he made the local population view these awful scenes,most said they never knew what was happening..........maybe they never saw the clouds of smoke billowing over their village..NOT..steve

Lying scumbag! Parroting your parrot father's lies. What were those "clouds of smoke." Jews being burned in ovens at Auschwitz possibly? Though the place DIDN'T have any gas chamber, they did have a crematorium. You can even see a smokestack next to it today. Is that where the "smoke" came from? Well that smokestack was built by the Russians after the war to try and sell the bullshit you and your father spread. And that sham smokestack wasn't even connected to the crematorium. So it would have been pretty difficult for the smoke you imagine to have come from it. Asshole.

Who said anything about Auschwitz ????????? I will take your post as a SAD inditement sic of the type of MORON YOU R.......So you are saying the Holocaust Never Occurred.............Fcuk people like you make me sick.......The Missing History of Ravensbrück, The Nazi Concentration Camp for Women...

As I said SICK....to Demonize and Deny the Holocaust is it insult the Jewish People and Humanity.....you low - life

To claim the Holocaust was only about Jewish people is to play with history.

You ARE BEING SOMEWHAT PEDANTIC NOW FRIGID

No, I'm not.

The right wing Jews have used the Holocaust as a way of getting what they want. They've decided it was only they who suffered, and no one else can have claim to this suffering. That annoys me greatly.

Yes I know,it has all worn thin,especially with the way the Palestinians have been treated,frigid