Historic High for WAGE earners

[Bern80]

And what if government and corporations are engaging in policies that they know worsen people's lives?

I guess first I would have to know what you think those policies are. There is also a side point to that in that those with the drive don't allow road blocks to get in the way of their goals. Think about it. You are suggesting that there are political and corporate barriers that prevent certain people from being rich. Which suggests A) either it is impossible to circumvent said road block (and complete impossibility isn't very likely) or B) that they give up when they reach a certain road block. If it's later they probably don't have what it takes to reach the goal in the first place.

There have been several sources now between these two threads (which you conveniently glossed over) that show that it is A) far from impossible to become wealthy and B) that in fact no, the Trumps of the world are not the typical wealthy (we're talkin' hundreds of millions to billions). That number of people at that level of wealth isn't even close to half of all millionaires (again despite you claiming otherwise and ignoring the evidence presented). Hell one of those sources (The critique of the Forbes 400) was posted by someone on your side of the argument and it still supports my position.

 

[jillian]

Denny, you've really got to listen to what people say sometimes instead of persistently repeating yourself.

But... tax breaks for things like off-shoring, which has been mentioned a number of times, is one of those policies.

 

[Bern80]

Denny, you've really got to listen to what people say sometimes instead of persistently repeating yourself.

And what exactley have I misunderstood? Did I miss the part where you conceded there was more evidence posted then what you claimed? Did I miss the part where you backed off your stance. And for the dozenth time or so my name isn't Denny. It's a quote from a tv show. Are you understanding yet how understanding context is kinda important?

But... tax breaks for things like off-shoring, which has been mentioned a number of times, is one of those policies.

Obviously there is gonna be a tax break for offshoring as the company is no longer paying any payroll taxes. Is there some policy beyond that which you are referring to?

 

[Toro]

Bern80

The latest unemployment rate is 4.9%. It is rising and will continue to rise, but it is relatively low compared to the past 30 years.

There are a number of attempts to capture other measures of employment. I see someone talks about under-employment and says that the real rate is 9%. That's somewhat dubious, IMO. I have lived in a country with unemployment that high, and it was near impossible to find a job, even a job as a waiter. That's not the case in America at the moment. You can find a job. It may be a crappy job, but they are there. I see them advertised where I live.

The rawest data on employment is to look at the employment ratio, which is the ratio of those employed to the total population.

Its falling as we enter this recession, but it is still very high compared to the past 50 years.

 

[Bern80]

4.9% would be considered well within acceptable means. Job wise most economists would say you're doing well at 5% unemployment because it is pretty difficult to get to less than that. Because of how it is currently calculated you will never get to zero unemployment.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Bern80

The latest unemployment rate is 4.9%. It is rising and will continue to rise, but it is relatively low compared to the past 30 years.

There are a number of attempts to capture other measures of employment. I see someone talks about under-employment and says that the real rate is 9%. That's somewhat dubious, IMO. I have lived in a country with unemployment that high, and it was near impossible to find a job, even a job as a waiter. That's not the case in America at the moment. You can find a job. It may be a crappy job, but they are there. I see them advertised where I live.

The rawest data on employment is to look at the employment ratio, which is the ratio of those employed to the total population.

Its falling as we enter this recession, but it is still very high compared to the past 50 years.

The reason it is very difficult in W. Europe to find a good job (or any job) and that unemployment has stubbornly remained in double digits is the ridiculous labor laws that pretty much guarantees workers a job for life. When you make it virtually impossible for companies to shrink their work force in tough times it makes companies VERY reluctant to hire and grow in good times. It's a bad circle they get it and it stifles growth and overall, stagnates the economy. W. Europe is in serious long term economic trouble as high immigration is putting tremendous pressure on the welfare state as these socialist countries are required to pay for virtually everything yet there are no jobs available to increase the tax base.

The best thing happenned to American labor in the past 40 years was PATCO strike and Reagan firing them all. It essientially gave corporations in America the right to FIRE. The right to fire, pretty much at will ensures companies will add jobs willingly as economic conditions allow. In fact, it why, even in economic slowdowns there are still significant skilled labor shortages in the US while Europe is stuck with an oversupply.

 

[Dr Grump]

I know a lot of Europeans who have very good jobs. The only country that really has what I would call a bad structure in place is France with their job sharing and 35-hour week plan where overtime is frowned upon. A lot of the unemployment is due to primary industries closing down and an influx of migrants mainly from Eastern Europe...I think most western cultures are heading towards becoming service-orientated societies. Pity, because primary industry was once the backbone of western nations..

 

[Zoomie1980]

I know a lot of Europeans who have very good jobs. The only country that really has what I would call a bad structure in place is France with their job sharing and 35-hour week plan where overtime is frowned upon. A lot of the unemployment is due to primary industries closing down and an influx of migrants mainly from Eastern Europe...I think most western cultures are heading towards becoming service-orientated societies. Pity, because primary industry was once the backbone of western nations..

Odd topic, the move of western economies towards service, away from primary manufacturing. Both the left and right bemoan it. The left, primarily because large, corporate, primary manufacturing, was the backbone of the Unionism, a fundamental component of socialism, and the home to blue-collar, hourly wage earner aka the traditional "working class". It has been replaced by a mostly salaried work force that has been very difficult to "organize". It also has seen the death-nell of the classic pension based retirement and, at least in the US, the rise of the 401k and it's close relatives which is tranisition the middle class from an entitlement based population to an ownership based population.

Conservatives view it as a security failing. It now makes the US "dependent" on foreign economies for almost every material good we used to make at home.

The reality is that our standard of living in the west simply outgrew the ability of traditional manufacturing to support it. It required not only new, high-tech manufacturing techniques must a massive service infrastructure to support it and we couldn't do it all...

 

[Dr Grump]

Odd topic, the move of western economies towards service, away from primary manufacturing. Both the left and right bemoan it. The left, primarily because large, corporate, primary manufacturing, was the backbone of the Unionism, a fundamental component of socialism, and the home to blue-collar, hourly wage earner aka the traditional "working class". It has been replaced by a mostly salaried work force that has been very difficult to "organize". It also has seen the death-nell of the classic pension based retirement and, at least in the US, the rise of the 401k and it's close relatives which is tranisition the middle class from an entitlement based population to an ownership based population.

Conservatives view it as a security failing. It now makes the US "dependent" on foreign economies for almost every material good we used to make at home.

The reality is that our standard of living in the west simply outgrew the ability of traditional manufacturing to support it. It required not only new, high-tech manufacturing techniques must a massive service infrastructure to support it and we couldn't do it all...

I think there is also a mindset that primary industries where a tangible form of wealth. Technology and services aren't. Plus so many huge companies were formed and relied on it. I still think primary industry is necessary for the survival of an economy. In saying that, one of the biggest economic success stories was Japan, which hardly had any natural resources at all, but still had very good primary industries...

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I think there is also a mindset that primary industries where a tangible form of wealth. Technology and services aren't. Plus so many huge companies were formed and relied on it. I still think primary industry is necessary for the survival of an economy. In saying that, one of the biggest economic success stories was Japan, which hardly had any natural resources at all, but still had very good primary industries...

Which makes Japan at the mercy of other nations.
Japan also succeded for other reasons, we propped them up initially, plus they spend very little on military, China doesnt invade them only because of us

There is much more industrial production in the US than most think. Go check out the actual stats.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

I was referring to changes in the over all economy. But to address your point first off do you honestly not see the unfounded assumptions you are makeing to get your argument to work? That has been a common theme in this thread, first was 'well that's just not representative of the wealthy' 3-4 sources to the contrary later people have conveniently brushed over that.

EXACTLY. THE LIBS THRIVE ON SCARING PEOPLE AND USE THE EMOTIONS OF HOW THINGS USE TO BE, HENCE "PEACE Activism, threats of child labor, coat hanger abortions, racism, corporations screwing over the workers" are all things of the past, but the libs have to live off the fear of these things to survive because their actual posistions dont hold enough support for them to win.
Unfortunately a lot of people buy into itl

Actually, I've changed my mind. The premise set forth in this thread was yours. It's unproven. One book by someone with an agenda doesn't make for a valid source. Until you prove your premise, there isn't any need to rebut the unproven premise..

The burden of proof is on you; You are asking him to prove a negative, cant be done. You provide the proof the companies are forcing this situation.

You acknowledge the veracity of the things I've pointed out, yet still blame the people who get displaced for not making some type of heroic effort to get back to where they were.

You know what, maybe you're right. Maybe people should be heroic. But most aren't..... most are just normal, hence middle class.

again, another word hijacked by lib s. Middle class ISNT normal, never has been. Its extremely rare for there to be a large middle class in societieThe s, until recently and even now, most countries dont have a large middle class. But the libs want us to think it normal and we are lacking in itl, whereas in fact we have led the way and done better than any in history in creating a large middle class.

The middle class is more threatened by large govt than any other segment. You simply cant tax poor people, (except how the libs throw in things like tobacco taxes and lotteries} and according to the libs, rich people never pay their fair share, so it leaves the tax burden up to the middle class.

 

[rayboyusmc]

The libs thrive on scaring people. Wow, nothing of this shit from the conservs?

 

[Toro]

The libs thrive on scaring people. Wow, nothing of this shit from the conservs?

In all due respect, are you f****** joking?

The past six years, the central message of the Republican Party has been "The terrorists are going to get you, so don't vote Democrat!"

Former Georgia Senator, Max Cleland - a decorated war hero who had three limbs blown off in Vietnam - was equated with Osama bin Laden in TV ads in the 2002 congressional elections.

Oh, it ain't the libs that have been scaring the people the past several years.