Zone1 have you ever heard Jesus....

[Meriweather]

No one chooses to be in hell or "apart from God" if that entails hell.

The point: Choosing being apart from God, is just that. No Dante's Inferno.

 

[Red Front]

The point: Choosing being apart from God, is just that. No Dante's Inferno.

Being apart from God according to Christianity is torment and suffering. No one chooses that, so your point is moot. Your sophistry and eclectic new-age gobbledygook don't work with me. Try it on someone else. No one chooses to be tormented for all eternity.

 

[Meriweather]

That's what the NT teaches, but of course, you're an eclectic, "new agey" Christian, pretending everyone can go to heaven without being born again in Jesus or even after rejecting the Christian gospel.

A Catholic following the Catechism of the Catholic Church knows the Church teaches God sends no one to hell; that it is the individual that chooses an existence apart from God. Nothing "New Age"...it's been the teaching for decades.

 

[Meriweather]

Those who don't believe are condemned already

Doesn't say "condemned to hell" though, does it, so condemned to what? Condemned to following the Law, condemned to continuing to offer sacrifices/pay for their sins to be forgiven? Christ said his with his way the yoke was easy, the burden light. Condemned to a harder way with a heavier burden? Dante's Inferno was centuries into the future.

 

[Red Front]

A Catholic following the Catechism of the Catholic Church knows the Church teaches God sends no one to hell; that it is the individual that chooses an existence apart from God. Nothing "New Age"...it's been the teaching for decades.

That's nonsense. The Catholics believe God sends people to hell, not people sending themselves to hell. No one chooses to go to hell and get barbecued (i.e. tortured) for all eternity, they are forced there due to rejecting Christianity, or for some other reason, but not out of choice.

Post-Vatican II Catholics are a bit more open to allowing non-Christians into heaven and I made that clear in my statements, but that contradicts the NT and much of Christendom, not to speak of pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic history. Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Christians are more sectarian when it comes to salvation.

 

[Meriweather]

The Catholics believe God sends people to hell

Attended Catholic School in the 1960s; taught it was a choice.

 

[Red Front]

Doesn't say "condemned to hell" though, does it, so condemned to what? Condemned to following the Law, condemned to continuing to offer sacrifices/pay for their sins to be forgiven? Christ said his with his way the yoke was easy, the burden light. Condemned to a harder way with a heavier burden? Dante's Inferno was centuries into the future.

Nice try, but that's not what being condemned entails. Those verses imply that the one condemned, rejected Jesus (not believing in his name) on the grounds of loving and doing evil:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:20 For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

According to the NT, those who reject the gospel, or don't believe in the name of Jesus, supposedly do it because they refuse to come to the light and have their deeds judged. In Ch3, the same chapter of the verses cited above (within the immediate context of those verses), we read:

Joh 3:2-8 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. (3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.

One is born again through belief (faith in Jesus and His gospel), that's what the following verses in ch3 state, and what the whole NT teaches. For example, Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” and the NT also states,“There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”. In Joh 8:22-24 we read:

"Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. (23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

It's crystal clear that those who don't believe, are condemned to hell, not having access to God's Kingdom. I could give many other examples.

The most interesting argument that I have heard from Christians, with respect to salvation and how everyone who isn't a Christian, won't go to hell on account of their lack of belief, is here:

Three Eternal Destinies of Man | Twelve Tribes

Christians have been preaching about heaven and hell for almost two thousand years. But for those same two thousand years, thoughtful people have struggled with another perplexing question: “What about the millions who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ? Are they all going to...

twelvetribes.org

​

But they're considered a Christian cult.

I just can't believe a loving God can torture people in hell for all eternity. Maybe if hell is non-existence, the Christians would have a better argument, because they could argue that God doesn't owe us our existence. We must align ourselves with God's will in virtue of Him being the author of life and the highest authority in existence, despite our loved ones or friends not receiving the privilege of eternal life, due to refusing to obey God or acknowledge His existence.

That divine presence or existence dwells within the human heart or psyche, and those who reject that, undermine their right or privilege to exist. As a creature created in the image of God and aligned with His will and purpose, you accept the fate of your loved ones, even if they lose their existence. It's painful, but that is God's righteous will, even if we fail to understand and appreciate it.

I can agree with what I just proposed above, with some consternation, however, I can't accept morally, as a matter of conscience, the idea that an almighty God tortures people in hell for all eternity or predestines people to eternal torment. I can't love a God that does that, because that is clearly evil and sadistic. I can accept the former scenario of people not existing, due to their rejection of the gospel and bad behavior, but not the notion of eternal torture for failing to convert to Christianity.

 

[Red Front]

Attended Catholic School in the 1960s; taught it was a choice.

More sophistry. Sure it's a choice to be a Christian or not, but it's also assumed by the same people who say salvation is a "choice" that people choose to go to hell. The reality is that no one chooses hell, that's just a cheap, silly response. Hell or damnation is forced upon the wicked or those who don't believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I can accept this provided the person was given ample opportunity to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and hell isn't eternal torture. If hell or the second death is annihilation or oblivion (God forgetting you forever), then I can accept that. I can't accept God torturing people forever, that's nonsense and sadistic. God isn't a sadist.

 

[Meriweather]

but that's not what being condemned entails

The point is that it does not mean total annihilation. It is a judgment, and sometimes a punishment or discipline for a time. Having to follow the Law, paying a price for forgiveness, lack of graces, not being filled with the Holy Spirit, might be such a punishment or discipline. What would other suitable punishment might God levy?

 

[Meriweather]

Hell or damnation is forced upon the wicked or those who don't believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Not Catholic teaching or belief.

 

[Red Front]

Not Catholic teaching or belief.

You're ignorant of Catholicism. Catholicism doesn't assert that people choose hell but rather are condemned to hell by God.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1035

www.scborromeo.org

That's clearly not a choice.

 

[ding]

You're ignorant of Catholicism. Catholicism doesn't assert that people choose hell but rather are condemned to hell by God.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1035

www.scborromeo.org

That's clearly not a choice.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

 

[Red Front]

The point is that it does not mean total annihilation. It is a judgment, and sometimes a punishment or discipline for a time. Having to follow the Law, paying a price for forgiveness, lack of graces, not being filled with the Holy Spirit, might be such a punishment or discipline. What would other suitable punishment might God levy?

Your version of hell is unbiblical and ridiculous. It clearly states in the verses that I cited and you're ignoring, that those who don't believe will die in their sins and not enter the kingdom of God, so your hippie, eclectic, new-age-Sedona Arizona, attempt to water down hell is pathetic and hence fails.

​

 

[Red Front]

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

Exactly, that's the absurdity of your version of Christianity and spirituality. People supposedly choose hell rather than God. The reality is that people behave according to their human nature, and no one chooses to spend eternity in a state of utter torment. They reject your religion, its doctrines, and your Catholic or Christian opinion about God, but not God.

People don't know God, although they would like to if they had a chance. Not agreeing with Christians or Christian doctrine, Christianity, isn't the equivalent of choosing hell. Having premarital sex, isn't the equivalent of choosing to be tortured in hell for all eternity or not having a relationship with God. So you're confused and your silly sophistry, play on words, doesn't impress me. When someone sins, they're not choosing hell or rejecting God, they're just dealing with hormones, a hostile environment that is constantly bombarding them with messages, images, impressions..etc, that can agitate the mind, the person's animal instincts.

To say that people choose to be excluded or "self-exclusion" from God is nonsense. No one in their right mind, chooses to be separated from God or to go to hell for all eternity. That's just philosophical gibberish. Gobbledygook.

 

[Meriweather]

You're ignorant of Catholicism.

1035

Any particular reason for excluding Paragraphs 1033, 1034, 1036, 1037?

 

[Red Front]

Any particular reason for excluding Paragraphs 1033, 1034, 1036, 1037?

Cite them here. I'm not chasing after your references. Cite them, provide a link, or they don't exist.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not chasing after your references

Not asking for it. What they say has been already been summarized.

 

[Red Front]

Any particular reason for excluding Paragraphs 1033, 1034, 1036, 1037?

None of the references you cited helps your case:

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" IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622
V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

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As we can see from the above references, people are burned/tortured in hell forever, for "sinning", or not living a nearly perfect life. Without Jesus and going regularly to confession, there's no way to avoid "mortal sins", hence humanity is doomed to hell forever. It also states above that people should convert to Catholicism, in order to be saved. That is clear from the text. All of this brimstone and fire is just sadistic gobbledygook. As if almighty God doesn't have the power or creativity, the love, to reform humanity, abandoning the "sinners" in a state of eternal torment. Your religion amounts to spiritual terrorism.

That's not my version of Christianity or God, that's more like a demonic version. A God that lacks the love, power, and creativity to reform his human creations because they weren't perfect. They "sinned", they behaved like the mortal, earthly creatures that they are, exactly how they were created, and hence are tortured in hell for all eternity for it. Really? Is it my fault I'm a mortal human being in a flawed, imperfect earthly body of flesh? That's just a bunch of religious nonsense. Spiritual terrorism. A Religion founded upon fear, extreme violence, and just sheer terror. Terrorism.

 

[ding]

Exactly, that's the absurdity of your version of Christianity and spirituality. People supposedly choose hell rather than God. The reality is that people behave according to their human nature, and no one chooses to spend eternity in a state of utter torment. They reject your religion, its doctrines, and your Catholic or Christian opinion about God, but not God.

People don't know God, although they would like to if they had a chance. Not agreeing with Christians or Christian doctrine, Christianity, isn't the equivalent of choosing hell. Having premarital sex, isn't the equivalent of choosing to be tortured in hell for all eternity or not having a relationship with God. So you're confused and your silly sophistry, play on words, doesn't impress me. When someone sins, they're not choosing hell or rejecting God, they're just dealing with hormones, a hostile environment that is constantly bombarding them with messages, images, impressions..etc, that can agitate the mind, the person's animal instincts.

To say that people choose to be excluded or "self-exclusion" from God is nonsense. No one in their right mind, chooses to be separated from God or to go to hell for all eternity. That's just philosophical gibberish. Gobbledygook.

They do when they can't tolerate God's love.

 

[Red Front]

They do when they can't tolerate God's love.

What do you mean by "tolerating" God's love? Define what people aren't tolerating about God's love.

What's God's love? Making ridiculous demands upon humanity under the threat of eternal torment in a fiery hell? Grow up, or better yet get a conscience. No one rejects God, they reject your horrible version or ideas about God.