Zone1 have you ever heard Jesus....

[Meriweather]

So they didn't always do what was right. Israel doing right was sporadic at best.
The Lord is talking about His Son, whose righteousness was not intermittent. It was always right.

Mankind is imperfect and has been since the fall. However, the time Isaiah was addressing, Jews had repented and hand turned back to God. They were doing their best to follow the faith of Moses and their fathers. Then came the politics of other nations who insisted all nations follow their rules. God's servant (Israel) refused, and they were forced out of their homeland because they refused to give up following God's rules and take on the customs/rules (including worship of idols) of another nation. This was not a case of Israel giving in to the customs, false worship, and sins followed by others. This was a case of Israel refusing to turn from the ways of God and were being persecuted for not doing so.

This is a case where all nations (who eventually did) and future nations can point to a people who stuck to God's ways and God's commandments plus the worshiping none but Him. They did not fail, and because they did not give in, were eventually returned to their homeland.

It does neither Jews nor Jesus any favors by not recognizing this part of salvation history. Jesus grew up with the history of those people--and those like the Maccabees and Eleazar--who held fast to God and died for him.

 

[kjw47]

say literally anything the rcc believes? no.mary worship, graven image worship, purgatory, indulgences, the 7 sacraments etc.? no.

The protestants fixed little-Why? Because their translations come from Catholicism translating. Not only altered( removal of Gods name by satans will) and errors to fit false council teachings as well-to mislead one to not enter Gods kingdom. Jesus would not use those altered translations if he were on earth. Either does his real religion.

 

[Meriweather]

Catholic teaching is that Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world and opened the way of salvation. Christ made the work of redemption and salvation possible.

Jesus, himself, was an apostle (sent forth) of the Father. He gathered apostles (those he would send forth) around him. The descent of the Holy Spirit happened, he said, because he ascended into heaven.

Jesus taught us to pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven, which means everyone sharing his obedience to the Father, sharing in his work of bringing redemption and salvation into the world. Jesus opened the Way, and now it is our turn.

Jesus opened the Way of Salvation to all through his suffering. Had Jesus not suffered, would the world have ever come to know him? This means allowing suffering into our own lives and accepting this suffering in our lives as God will for us. We give access to God into our suffering, we surrender to God in our suffering. Suffering definitely includes suffering from our failures. We ask, we allow God to work with them.

In Catholicism, we are part of the story of redemption and salvation here on earth. We are not waiting for God to hand us something after we die. With our baptism, we eagerly enter into our assigned part of God’s story of salvation for all the earth.

 

[The Irish Ram]

opened the way of salvation. Christ made the work of redemption and salvation possible.

So it's up to you to secure your salvation? What are some of the things you have done today to reserve your seat at the Lord's table?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jesus opened the Way of Salvation to all through his suffering. Had Jesus not suffered, would the world have ever come to know him?

Lots and lots of humans have suffered horrible fates. We know about Jesus because they watched Him die, then saw Him come back. And He stuck around for 40 days. And He brought about 10,000 formally dead back with Him. Very convincing.

What kind of horrible Father do you have that wants you to suffer for the same sins that Christ already disposed of? Or do you believe that Christ nailed nothing of yours to the cross?

Col 4:14 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
^
You don't believe that, do you...

 

[Meriweather]

So it's up to you to secure your salvation? What are some of the things you have done today to reserve your seat at the Lord's table?

Try to understand. Some don't think, "What is in it for me." Some think about what God wants for the world, and want to be a part of God's plan. Moses and Israelites elected to be a part of God's plan. Jews in Isaiah's age, in the age of Maccabees as well, elected to be a part of God's plan, living his Law, worshiping only him. God started with a chosen few to bring salvation into the world. And then, in the fullness of time, he sent us our King, his only begotten son. Jesus redeemed the world, opened the Way of Salvation, the Way he planned for the world from the beginning. Some want to be a part of that story, the story of God's will being discerned and done on earth as it is in heaven.

The prayer at the beginning of each day is, "Here I am, Lord. Send me."

No one imagines the Apostles saying, "I have been given a place in heaven. Nothing more I need to do here, quess I'll go fishing." They were sent out--that is what apostleship is. Catholics believe the people of God being sent out into the world, not for their own individual salvation, but for the salvation of all, God's will for all.

 

[Meriweather]

What kind of horrible Father do you have that wants you to suffer

Those who love God would never, ever have such a thing cross his/her mind. Suffering is a part of life, and God is so Great that, when it is offered to him, he can use suffering to bring about good. His obedience to God is what brought about Jesus' suffering. Perhaps remember what God did with that.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't believe that, do you...

Not the way you do. You have this habit of changing words and/or their meaning. Debt does not equate to punishment.

I am in debt to God for many things, starting with my life and His involvement in my life. I am not of the mind God nailed my punishment to the cross because there was no punishment to nail to the cross to begin with. Paul said "debt".

There is no way I can repay God for all he has done for me, and he assures us there is no need for repayment of that debt. Those who have small children get it. We spend time and effort feeding, clothing, and sheltering them. No way a child can repay that...yet we are in awe when that child picks a flower and brings it to us. We, as parents, feel the love...

God gathers our love in what we offer. He accepts it with the same joy a mom feels when given a flower or a pretty pebble, or the child's offer to help.

 

[ninja007]

Using the New World Translation to refute the New World Translation: John 1:1​

by Luke Wayne | Feb 14, 2019 | Jehovah's Witnesses, World Religions

Perhaps the most well-known difference between the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doctrinally slanted “New World Translation” of the Bible and reliable, scholarly translations (such as the NASB, ESV, KJV, etc.) is John 1:1. Christians have used this verse for centuries to defend the deity of Christ and the Trinity but the NWT has changed the wording in one small but crucial way which radically alters the verse’s meaning. Virtually every English Bible ever produced by any translator or committee in any era all read:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” (John 1:1).
However, the Watchtower Society (the governing body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses) has changed the very end of the verse, so that it reads:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god,” (John 1:1, NWT).
By saying that Jesus is not “God” but rather merely “a god,” Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they can justify their diminished view of who Jesus is. It’s fairly easy to show through the Greek wording and grammar and the biblical and cultural background that the JW’s translation is erroneous. However, since the majority of Christians and Jehovah’s Witnesses do not read biblical Greek nor know details about ancient Jewish culture, it can be helpful to show that traditional Bibles are correct. This can be shown through the English text of the faulty “New World Translation” itself!

The Uncreated Creator in John 1:1​

Looking just at the wording of the New World Translation, what do we see about Jesus? Let’s take a look at the verse again:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god,” (John 1:1, NWT).
Even if we pretend, just for the sake of argument, that this could be an accurate translation, it leaves us with more questions than answers. If the Word is a god, which god is the Word supposed to be? And what sort of god? By itself, this clause does not tell us. But the verse as a whole gives us an important clue. Instead of the final words, look at the opening words: “In the beginning was the Word.” It does not say, “In the beginning the Word came into being” or “In the beginning God created the Word.” It says that in the beginning the Word already “was.” In the beginning, the Word is already there. The Word does not have a beginning. Rather, the Word is already present in the beginning. Such a phrase implies an uncreated being. If someone were to say “In the beginning was Jehovah,” such a phrase would not imply that Jehovah was a created being. It would point to the exact opposite of that. So, too, when such a phrase is applied to the Word.
Notice what the passage says immediately afterward:
“This one was in the beginning with God,” (John 1:2, NWT).
In the same way that God “was” in the beginning, so too the Word “was” in the beginning. Driving the point home, the next verse explains:
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence,” (John 1:3, NWT).
Note that all things came into existence through Him. Indeed, not even one thing came into existence except through Him. If The Word were Himself a creation, this would be utter nonsense! He could not come into existence through Himself. If He came into existence, He would be one thing that came into existence that did not come into existence through the Word. But the verse here is emphatic: not even one thing came into existence apart from Him. When we ask which god the Word is, we must say that He is the eternal, uncreated creator. He is the God who brought all things into being and who Himself had no beginning. How many gods meet that description?

The God of Israel​

As we continue reading in the passage, we find that it also says of the Word:
“He came to his own home, but his own people did not accept him,” (John 1:11, NWT).
To whom did “The Word” (i.e., Jesus) come? Who were His own people that did not accept Him? They were the Jewish people, of course. Jesus is the God whose people are the Jews. How many gods are there that can claim the Jewish people as their own people? Only one. The Jews had but one God. Jehovah did not share His covenant people with some other lesser god. No other god could call them “his own people.” So, if Jesus is “a god.” Which god? He is the uncreated creator whose own people were the Jews. Jesus is Jehovah.

Pouring Out the Holy Spirit​

As we continue reading the chapter, we are told of the prophet John and his testimony about Jesus.
“Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me: ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining, this is the one who baptizes in holy spirit,’” (John 1:33, NWT).
Jesus is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. But who is that, exactly? What is that supposed to tell us? And it is not only here that John the Baptist tells us this but John also says this same thing about Jesus in all of the other gospels as well!
“I baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the holy spirit,” (Mark 1:8 NWT, see also Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16).
Jesus reaffirms the point Himself just before ascending into heaven, and He makes it clear that it was fulfilled when the Spirit was poured out on the Apostles and early Christians just after that time:
“for John, indeed, baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the holy spirit not many days after this,” (Acts 1:5, NWT).
Why is it so important to know that Jesus is the one who was to pour out the Holy Spirit? Peter explains this in Acts chapter 2:
“These people are, in fact, not drunk, as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel ‘And in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams,'” (Acts 2:15-17, NWT).
When Jesus poured out the Spirit on His followers, He was fulfilling an Old Testament prophecy where God promised to pour out the Holy Spirit on His people. So, Jesus did something that God Himself had promised to do. Who is the one who was to pour out the Holy Spirit? God was! And which God? Let’s look at Joel’s prophecy and see:
“And you will have to know that I am in the midst of Israel And that I am Jehovah your God—there is no other! My people will never again be put to shame. After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, And your sons and your daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, And your young men will see visions,” (Joel 2:27-28, NWT).
It is not merely some generic god speaking here, it is Jehovah by name. He explicitly says that there is no other God and then says that He will pour out the Spirit on all flesh. So, Jesus is the one who was supposed to pour out the Spirit. The one who was supposed to pour out the Spirit was Jehovah God Himself. Therefore, Jesus is Jehovah God.

The True and Living God​

The typical JW response to this is not to directly address any of these passages but rather to run elsewhere, quite often to John 17, where they read:
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ,” (John 17:3, NWT).
The argument is that John 1 cannot be saying that Jesus is God because John 17 says that the Father is the “only true God.” This objection is based on faulty logic and ignorance about the doctrine of the Trinity, and is fully addressed in our article: John 17:3, “The Only True God”. But it is also worth noting that this verse presents the Jehovah’s Witnesses with another serious problem. You see, their translation of John 1:1 acknowledges that Jesus is a god. Their translation of John 17:3 is clear that there is only one true god. Therefore, all other gods are false gods. So which is Jesus? If He is a god, He is either the one true God or He is a false god. John 1:1 is obviously not calling Jesus a false god. Thus, John 17:3, taken in context with the whole gospel, is actually supportive of the Trinitarian conclusion that Jesus, though personally distinct from the Father, is nevertheless the same God. God the Father and God the Son are both the one true God, Jehovah! We can see this same point elsewhere. For example, Jeremiah says:
“But Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God and the eternal King. Because of his indignation the earth will quake, And no nations will endure his denunciation. This is what you should say to them: ‘The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth Will perish from the earth and from under these heavens,’” (Jeremiah 10:10-11, NWT)
Two important things to note here. Jehovah alone is the “living God.” Jehovah is not merely one of the living gods. He is the living God. There is no other. So is Jesus a lifeless god? Is He a dead idol? Absolutely not! John’s gospel again tells us:
“by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men,” (John 1:4, NWT).
And:
“Jesus said to her: ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life,” (John 11:25, NWT).
And again:
“Jesus said to him: ‘I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me,” (John 14:6, NWT).
Jesus is life and the giver of life. He is not a dead god. He is the living God! What’s more, Jeremiah also said that the gods that did not make the heavens and earth would perish from the earth. If Jesus is not the creator God, then He is among the gods whom Jehovah has promised to destroy. Yet, even the Jehovah’s Witnesses would agree that Jehovah is not planning to destroy Jesus. Jesus, as a god, will reign over the earth forever. Thus, Jesus is not among the other gods. Jesus is the true and living God. Jesus is Jehovah.

Conclusion: John 1:1 Refutes JWs Even in the NWT​

Having seen that Jesus is clearly and repeatedly identified as Jehovah, even within the very chapter where John 1:1 occurs, it becomes quite clear that John was not identifying Jesus as some kind of lesser deity. The Word was not merely “a god.” The Word was God. Thus, it is apparent that the New World Translation is incorrect in its rendering of John 1:1. The traditional reading is, in fact, correct. Ironically, we can see evidence of this even within the pages of the New World Translation itself.

 

[ninja007]

Try to understand. Some don't think, "What is in it for me." Some think about what God wants for the world, and want to be a part of God's plan. Moses and Israelites elected to be a part of God's plan. Jews in Isaiah's age, in the age of Maccabees as well, elected to be a part of God's plan, living his Law, worshiping only him. God started with a chosen few to bring salvation into the world. And then, in the fullness of time, he sent us our King, his only begotten son. Jesus redeemed the world, opened the Way of Salvation, the Way he planned for the world from the beginning. Some want to be a part of that story, the story of God's will being discerned and done on earth as it is in heaven.

The prayer at the beginning of each day is, "Here I am, Lord. Send me."

No one imagines the Apostles saying, "I have been given a place in heaven. Nothing more I need to do here, quess I'll go fishing." They were sent out--that is what apostleship is. Catholics believe the people of God being sent out into the world, not for their own individual salvation, but for the salvation of all, God's will for all.

believing Jesus' finished sacrifice for the redemption of ALL our sins and accepting that free gift and believing Him is "whats in it for me?" WOW. I truly feel sorry for you.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Not the way you do. You have this habit of changing words and/or their meaning. Debt does not equate to punishment

Colossians 2:14 Jesus canceled the record of debt we owed by nailing it to the cross.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed​

 

[Gracie]

I'm still trying to find the passage in that book so idolized that says Jesus came out of His burial cave to hunt for easter eggs laid by rabbits.
All religions have pagan roots. Period.

Jesus is out in the field, in the trees, the grass, the flowers, the clouds, the sky, the rivers and oceans. EVERY church and EVERY preacher/priest/etc is reading from that book, giving his/her OPINION on what that passages means. OPINION. Nobody knows God's intent. Not even those who wrote those passages..for other translators, who died and passed it on with their own interpretations....and agendas.

Every religion demands theirs is the "right one" and every other denomination is "wrong".

It's all bullshit. Pretty sure God and Jesus both have major eye rolls every day.

See my sigline.

 

[Red Front]

say literally anything the rcc believes? no.mary worship, graven image worship, purgatory, indulgences, the 7 sacraments etc.? no.

And yet without the Catholic Church and its councils, you wouldn't have an NT, the Trinity, and several other core Christian doctrines. You're pooping on the church that gave birth to Gentile (non-Jewish) Christianity in the 1st century and was practically the only form of Christianity for 1500 years until Martin Luther started his "protest" in the 16th century. You're throwing a lot of people into hell, with the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists..etc.

 

[Meriweather]

I truly feel sorry for you.

As I do for you. There is a difference between receiving a gift and putting it to use--or putting it away in a closet for a rainy day. There is a difference between thinking salvation is only for the afterlife and thinking salvation is eternal, starting in the present life and extending into eternity.

Catholics understand salvation as already in our possession, already in our use. The Protestant idea that some are working for salvation is a great puzzle. No one works for what one already has. What one has, one puts to use. The question is, If not using...why not? Is it truly in one's possession?

 

[Meriweather]

Every religion demands theirs is the "right one" and every other denomination is "wrong".

I don't see it that way. Catholics/Orthodox believe the teachings and way is closest to what Jesus taught. Other Christian denominations follow Christ, but not in the same way, feeling they have a better way, or a better understanding of Christ's way. Truly understanding the perspective of others is of great value to the world. Trying to prove right or wrong is of no value. That's like over long distance someone living near the sea telling someone living near the desert what they "really" see. And, if they don't see dolphins and whales that they are blind.

In this present discussion it is vital to understand that some truly see salvation as an afterlife in heaven. It doesn't matter if they sin or how much they sin, because God doesn't see sin any more. I believe God meets everyone (including atheists) where they are and leads us from there. None of the, "Claim Jesus as Lord and Savior or be thrown into the abyss." Sure, people can choose the abyss, but just as prison is not the place anyone would choose for their adult child, nor is the abyss what God would choose for any of us. We would have to insist.

 

[Meriweather]

Colossians 2:14 Jesus canceled the record of debt we owed by nailing it to the cross.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed​

I don't bother pursuing attachments.

Some don't understand the passage in Isaiah the way Isaiah and his original audience did. Jews do not understand the passage in the way modern Christians do. It's not impossible to understand both, to see the differences, to see the similarities.

It's understandable seeing salvation as God punishing Jesus, and Jesus accepting that punishment so people might be saved for heaven. The Catholic perspective of salvation differs, but it remains a valid perspective, just as yours does.

These different perspectives should be understood in the way of police asking four witnesses to an accident what they saw. They gather four different perspectives, four different angles.

 

[The Irish Ram]

It doesn't matter if they sin or how much they sin, because God doesn't see sin any more

lol:
Hebrews 8:12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

Isaiah 43:25 I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more.

Jer. 31:34 For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.

Jer. 50:20 for I will forgive the remnant I preserve.

Micah 7:19 He will again have compassion on us; He will vanquish our iniquities. You will cast out all our sins into the depths of the sea.

Romans 11:27
And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Hebrews 10:17 Then He adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

BECAUSE:

2 Corinth. 5:21 “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

Christ nailed my sin to His cross:

Col.2:14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross.

Since you don't believe God or Jesus, I'm curious. What have you done today to work off your sin?

 

[The Irish Ram]

It's understandable seeing salvation as God punishing Jesus, and Jesus accepting that punishment so people might be saved for heaven. The Catholic perspective of salvation differs, but it remains a valid perspective, just as yours does

Nope, He didn't take away our sins one way for the Gentile, and some other way for the Jews. One way for the Baptist, and another way for the Catholic.

Romans 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all.

Since you don't believe that, how long will your stay in Purgatory be and what if you just can't get as pure as those who accepted Christ's gift of His righteousness to enter Heaven with?

 

[Meriweather]

Since you don't believe God or Jesus, I'm curious. What have you done today to work off your sin?

Sins that have been repented of--i.e., turned away from so that they will never again be committed--are the sins God remembers no more. God does not forget the sins done yesterday if those same sins are repeated today. The sin must be given up (repented of) in its entirety.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Sins that have been repented of--i.e., turned away from so that they will never again be committed--are the sins God remembers no more. God does not forget the sins done yesterday if those same sins are repeated today. The sin must be given up (repented of) in its entirety.

Can you even name the 600+ laws? How about the original sin? Did you give up eating apples? How are you going to work your way out of that one?

There is no measure to forgiveness. The Jews forgave 3 times. Christ said to forgive as many times as is necessary. Does God forgive less than humans?

Matthew 18:22 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.