Haditha the new My Lai?

[nt250]

I am not surprised that civilians get killed sometimes intentionally. That is the nature of war. happened in all major ones at least. But unlike other countries the US is on the moral high horse and does take these incident seriously.

Intentionally targeting and killing civilians is a war crime.

That people like Kerry during Vietnam helped the enemy was a great lesson to this country. I dont think it will repeat. But to give the military a card blanche on investigations leads to no good outcome either imo.

What country are you talking about? Kerrry admitted to committing treason on the floor of the United States senate, not a damn thing was done to him, and 33 years later he came very close to being elected the President of The United States.

You don't think it will repeat? Does the name Murtha ring a bell?

You can be a patriot and still enforce the rules of warfare on your troops.
I understand that it can be frustrating when the enemy so blatantly has not any concerns. In the long run I would hope this will win the victory for the US. Given that I do not support the withdrawal of troops till an solid Iraqi state is established. And yeah more incident , false and real will happen over time. The US has to prove it has the staying power in the region.

We've got service members doing long jail time for laughing at prisoners of war.

Gimme a fucking break.

 

[T-Bor]

I love how the people here think that being Anti War is being Anti American. You people are a joke. This guy has the stones to now stand up for what he believes in. Ever think that just maybe this guy has seen so much war that perhaps it has changed his mind on things ? Maybe he has become more compassionate in his old age and now knows the difference between right and wrong. The only disgrace would be if he did know this and kept his mouth shut, that would be the disgrace my friends. He is now more of a man than anyone else for coming out and standing up for what he believes is right. Which is more than I can say for any of you. Nuff said.

A disgrace to the Marines, the Military, and the United States, IMO nuff said.

 

[Gunny]

I love how the people here think that being Anti War is being Anti American. You people are a joke. This guy has the stones to now stand up for what he believes in. Ever think that just maybe this guy has seen so much war that perhaps it has changed his mind on things ? Maybe he has become more compassionate in his old age and now knows the difference between right and wrong. The only disgrace would be if he did know this and kept his mouth shut, that would be the disgrace my friends. He is now more of a man than anyone else for coming out and standing up for what he believes is right. Which is more than I can say for any of you. Nuff said.

WHO exactly has said being anit war is being anti American? I must've missed it.

Which "this guy" in particular do you refer to, sachem?

Standing up for what one believes if fine as long as one can back the reason for that belief with fact instead of hysterical sensationalism and cheezy attempts to appeal to people's emotions by attempting to shame them for THEIR beliefs.

There are two sides to the "belief" thing. Try practicing what you preach.

 

[dilloduck]

I love how the people here think that being Anti War is being Anti American. You people are a joke. This guy has the stones to now stand up for what he believes in. Ever think that just maybe this guy has seen so much war that perhaps it has changed his mind on things ? Maybe he has become more compassionate in his old age and now knows the difference between right and wrong. The only disgrace would be if he did know this and kept his mouth shut, that would be the disgrace my friends. He is now more of a man than anyone else for coming out and standing up for what he believes is right. Which is more than I can say for any of you. Nuff said.

If you are really anti-war, tell the terrorists to stop. Once they stop it will be over. Do you have any idea what impact it could have if every single member of Congress would PUBLICALLY condemn terrorists as one voice??

 

[pegwinn]

I am not an American veteran, so it is not the same.

As a German veteran in view of our history I prefer investigations and press coverage over tradition.Bundeswehr or Nationale Volksarmee? Surely not the Wehrmacht unless you are very old. Was your Army a conscript or all-volunteer force? It matters because it will make it easier to explain matters to you.

That being said as I posted earlier , manslaughter in the line of duty should be protected. Just outright murder out of vengeance should be very limited.
Enemy sniper etc if they kill them as pow I wouldnt care.
Children, well that goes too far.

And I just support Murtha right to voice his opinion and put a spotlight
on this case. If they are proven innocent the better. Reread my letter to Murtha from one Marine to another. I violently oppose the method he used. The proper method is for him to use his weight to leverage the Service Secretary and the JCS.


PS: so you better understand where I am coming from, I post also on a German political messageboard. quite big with ca. 10000 active users.
There I have to defend the US daily against lies, absurd claims etc.
The leftwing in Germany is far more extreme then here in there rant of warcrimes and Bush and his "regime" intent to committ genocide. It is ridicilous. While I am not alone in defending the US and setting the record straight I see those ranting communist, greens etc as people that really hate
the marines. Murtha might be an peace activist these days but I dont think
he want to hurt the Us or the Marines per se. I wish you luck. Posting to loons without losing a temper or calling names is difficult. As soon as the namecalling begins rational discussion is history. Murtha doesn't want to hurt Marines, he wants to advance his political career over the bodies of Marines. It's worse in my opinion. BTW, it's worse because Murtha knows better. If it were Schumer, Rangel, Clinton, Reid, etc etc etc it would be business as usual

Of all people, from the LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-danelo6jun06,1,2888550.story?track=rss

From the Los Angeles Times
Marines in Iraq: The warriors' way
They maintain a monastic devotion to making right choices and sparing innocents amid the chaos of Iraq, says a former officer.
By David J. Danelo
DAVID J. DANELO, a former Marine officer and Iraq war veteran, is the author of "Blood Stripes: The Grunt's View of the War in Iraq."

June 6, 2006

ON APRIL 6, 2004, Cpl. Jason Howell, a Marine squad leader who had arrived in Iraq three weeks before, was enduring his baptism of fire in what later became known as the "first battle of Fallouja." Howell, who had not eaten in 18 hours or slept in 36, was running on nothing but adrenaline. His dehydrated spittle, caked around the side of his mouth, was dirty white. Kneeling on a roof, he saw a flash of movement. An Iraqi child put his face out the window.

Exhausted, Howell found himself unable to process the Arabic word he had learned for "stop." Without thinking, he screamed. The child pulled the curtains as Howell automatically raised his weapon to shoot. Then Howell blinked. An instant later, clarity returned to his thoughts. The corporal, who was in his first of what would become many days of combat, had almost shot an innocent.

"I don't know exactly why I didn't pull the trigger," said Howell, who now serves with the L.A. County Sheriff's Department. "It all happened so fast. It was a combination of training, instinct and luck."

As the furor grows over allegations that Marines killed 24 Iraqi civilians last November — including women and children — the origins of Howell's discipline are worth examining.

The Corps is the smallest of the United States' military services, and it also has the highest enlisted-to-officer ratio (about 10 to 1). Because of this, a much higher level of responsibility is placed on corporals and sergeants, or noncommissioned officers. In each Marine infantry battalion, which is the primary combat element, an average of 60 noncommissioned officers lead squads or a unit of similar size. As squad leaders, they assume responsibility for the lives — and split-second decisions — of about a dozen men.

Marines are legendary for their monastic devotion to the warrior ideal. The mottos inked on their bodies — Death Before Dishonor, Make Peace or Die, Always Faithful — function as physical scriptures for their choice of religion, like scapulars, phylacteries or "What Would Jesus Do?" bracelets. The ancient Spartans, who sacrificed at the battle of Thermopylae to defend the Greeks from the Persian onslaught, are venerated as saints within the Corps. The Spartan Way is a stoic faith.

SINCE THE FALL of 2001, 26 active duty and nine Marine Reserve infantry battalions have rotated into and out of Afghanistan and Iraq as units for seven-month tours of duty. As new recruits join a battalion, seasoned noncommissioned officers either gain rank toward senior billets or leave the Corps for civilian life. Although the exact numbers remain classified information, unit casualty reports suggest that about 50 separate rotations of Marine infantry battalions have been tested in combat over the last four years.

Using those statistics as a bare minimum, at least 3,000 corporals and sergeants have served combat tours as infantry squad leaders. Not to mention hundreds more who cut their teeth as combat replacements, convoy security escorts, translators, intelligence collectors or instructors for the new Iraqi army. When the histories are written, we will learn that the exact number of young Marines thrust into positions of leadership — amid an international media spotlight — is actually much higher.

Several Marines have already been convicted in the court of public opinion in the Haditha case. As military investigators evaluate these allegations, those on the sidelines should avoid castigation of an entire system because of the errors of a few. Consider the rush to judgment of 2nd Lt. Ilario G. Pantano, who was charged with murder at an April 2004 checkpoint shooting, or the nameless Marine in a Fallouja mosque who was seen on video killing an insurgent thought to have been booby-trapped. Both were eventually exonerated of all charges.

Responsible critics of the Iraq war say that we misappropriated U.S. military resources in making an unnecessary choice to topple Saddam Hussein's regime, a choice that has plunged young soldiers and Marines into the amorality of a protracted counterinsurgency. But placing too close an association on the Haditha massacre with the war's politics ignores the thousands of troops who have navigated the chaos and still made the right decisions.

Accuracy in the application of deadly force is the foundational creed for any who protect and defend their society. Discerning combatant from innocent is the greatest challenge for all who have engaged in this kind of war. Like spiritual perfection, the warrior ideal is often an impossible thing to fully achieve. But as we condemn the handful who have backslid in their pursuit of the Spartan Way, we should not forget to esteem the thousands who, like Cpl. Jason Howell, have kept their honor clean amid Iraq's insanity.

 

[Annie]

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5559

The Haditha Stratagem
June 7th, 2006

We face an Islamist enemy for which no deception, no cruelty, no inhumanity is too low in battling the infidel. I have previously argued that the Jihadis (among others) were fabricating incidents pointing to American involvement in massacres of Iraqi civilians. With the Haditha story, the subject has exploded across the media in a far more disturbing fashion than anyone could have wished. But there is one element that has been all but ignored: clear evidence that the insurgency has gone one step further, to actually contriving massacres involving U.S. troops.

Haditha is one of a flurry of mass-murder accusations leveled against American forces in recent months. Another serious instance occurred in Ishaqi, sixty miles north of Baghdad. On March 16, U.S. troops allegedly attacked the home of a local schoolteacher, killing eleven people, including women and children, before blowing up the house to conceal the crime. A video was released showing the victims being dug out, and the story was verified by local police.

The soldier’s version was more prosaic: coming under fire from the house in question, they called in an AC-130 gunship to level the place. While plucking an injured Al-Qaeda gunman from the wreckage, the troops found four other bodies, including two women and a child. (A similar case in which U.S. soldiers were accused of murdering a family of three in Duluiya, a nearby village, had scarcely begun circulating before it was proven to have actually involved seven grenade-wielding terrorists.)

Ten days later, yet another such “massacre” was revealed in Baghdad itself. Iraqi and U.S. troops raided an office complex held by militiamen, killing sixteen, capturing another eighteen, and rescuing a kidnapping victim. But by the next morning, the offices had been transformed into a mosque, the number of dead had multiplied, and the operation had become an all-American effort.

Initial media interest faded after the kidnap victim denied the mosque claim and revealed the torture scars he’d suffered at the militia’s hands (he refused, probably wisely, to identify which militia it was). By this time, the Ishaqi story had also fallen apart, over conflicting accounts of the incident and the victim’s identities, ages, and relationships to each other—which didn’t prevent a new video from popping up in the wake of the Haditha revelations. (Even as the video made the rounds, the Pentagon announced that the Marines involved had been cleared of all charges.)

What’s striking about the Ishaqi report is its surface similarity to the Haditha incident. Both feature ambushes of U.S. troops, carried out from occupied homes, by a single gunman acting alone.

It’s that last element that raises questions. A single shooter amid a group of unarmed civilians – that’s a strange setup for an ambush. A one-man ambush is a contradiction in terms. A guerilla unit conducting such an operation would use all the men available, to concentrate fire and cause as much damage as possible. A single man may take a pot-shot or two and then break contact. But from a houseful of people, who will inevitably come under fire in return? There’s no reason for that. Not unless it wasn’t an ambush at all. Not unless a completely different effect was intended.

The war in Iraq is a low-level insurrection slowly – all too slowly – grinding to a halt. The insurgents have attempted to take and hold ground in cities like Tal Afar and Fallujah, and have failed. They have attempted to stop the electoral process through intimidation, and have failed. They have attempted to split the country through civil war, and have failed. Few tactics remain to them, one of which is to take a page from the Vietnam playbook and work the media, hoping that upheaval in the U.S. itself will win their war for them. And that requires a My Lai.

So they’ve been trying to arrange one. To create the conditions for a massacre. Ambushing Coalition troops from houses full of helpless, unarmed civilians, hoping that the soldiers would respond with all the firepower at their command, and exposing the resulting carnage to the full glare of the international media. That was the plan at Ishaqi, and it might have worked if the shooter hadn’t survived. That was also the plan at Haditha—and somebody walked right into it. Some young men angered beyond rationality at seeing a friend blown in half by an IED, driven by impulses we will never know, stormed the nearest homes to kill not only the lone terrorist (according to the account in Time, there were two AK-47s but only one gunman), but everyone else as well—man, woman, and child.

If more proof is needed, consider the May 30 USA Today story in which Marine Captain Andrew Del Gaudio described coming under machine-gun fire this past April after an IED killed four of his men. As he was about to engage, he saw that the enemy had placed a line of children in front of the gun, with two video cameras ready to film them as they were shot down. Del Gaudio held his fire, and was injured by the next rounds. His troops flanked the machine-gun nest before attacking, and the children survived. (Further testimony along the same lines in offered in the Wall Street Journal’s June 6 “Best of the Web Today” by a unnamed officer under the heading “Letter from Iraq”.)

Clearly, there is no conceivable way to exaggerate the sheer viciousness of the fanatic Islamist.

None of this excuses the alleged actions of the troops at Haditha. Nothing could excuse that. If guilty, they will be tried and punished as they deserve. But if they were goaded into attacking, if it was a setup, if the terrorists are deliberately working to create such atrocities, then it’s a development we ignore at our peril. The My Lai paradigm must not be allowed to blind us to the possibility. This tactic (if that’s the term I’m groping for) must be investigated, verified, and exposed. Otherwise Haditha, and the media firestorm surrounding it, will simply open the door to a never-ending series of such tragedies. To more lines of children, and more houses full of innocents.

 

[OCA]

I'm so happy this happened, hope it happens some more. Although barbaric in some eyes it is a very highly successful tactic of war, it is a war remember? It is not supposed to be like a game of tiddlywinks, it is brutal and vicious, you kill one of ours, don't tell us who are where the bad guys are or went and we smoke the village. Bet you a dollar to a doughnut nothing ever happens in Haditha again.

I love it!

 

[OCA]

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5559

Really what I would like to know truthfully is where is all the righteous indignation from the left when a raghead bombs a market or mosque and smokes about 30 or 40 people? Is that not a murderous atrocity? Or is that reserved only for the evil yankees?

Fuck lately I really hate America sometimes because nobody will call the media out on the carpet for being the anti-American assholes they really are. It seems we've become a country full of pussies.

 

[Annie]

Reasonable Doubt? How weird to think???

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?f882c1b8-aa42-431f-83a6-0066e7629ace

Haditha: Reasonable Doubt
Special from Hawaii Free Press
By Andrew Walden, 6/5/2006 7:06:33 AM

“…the accused must be presumed to be innocent until his guilt is established by legal and competent evidence beyond reasonable doubt.” -- Uniform Code of Military Justice, USC Title 10, Chapter 47, Subchapter VII, Article 51(c)(1)

Eager to score points against President George W. Bush, US Representative John Murtha (D-PA) is calling the November 19 incident in Haditha “murder”. He claims there is a “cover up.” Over 40 news stories appeared Memorial Day weekend calling Haditha, “an atrocity” or “a massacre.” Murtha says, Haditha “is worse than abu-Ghraib.” Terrorist cheerleader and Cindy Sheehan associate Dahr Jamail is calling for the death penalty. The terror apologists of the Council on American Islamic Relations are calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. Al-Qaeda terrorists from Zarqawi’s group, Ansar al-Sunnah are circulating leaflets in Haditha congratulating “those who participated in exposing the dirty deeds of the Americans.”

The liberal media is chiming in to make sure that Haditha is used to wear down support for our troops in Iraq—just as they did with abu-Ghraib. Peering through the media smokescreen few have noticed that all of the actual shooting eye-witnesses in the media’s kangaroo court are local Iraqis--witnesses who are under constant threat from terrorists and whose motivations may be suspect. All the US witnesses currently quoted in the media saw events before or after the alleged shootings—but not the shootings themselves.

Only now—two and a half months after the story broke in the March 19 issue of Time magazine-- are the voices of soldiers who question the charges beginning to be heard. Marine Captain James Kimber commanded Lima Company of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment. The troops involved in the incident were from Kilo Company. He tells interviewers that he first learned about the shootings in February when he heard that a Time magazine reporter was asking questions about civilian deaths. Notably, Kimber says he heard nothing about a civilian massacre during weekly meetings with the Haditha City Council and talks with local leaders. "It would have been huge, there would have been no question it would have filtered down to us," he said. "We reported no significant atmospheric change as a result of that day." Kimber who has been relieved of his command and is back in Camp Pendleton, CA says, “I believe I was a political casualty as a result of the Haditha incident.” Some media accounts indicate that some of the dead were relatives of a Haditha City Council member. The May 12, 2006 edition of Iraq Reconstruction Update carries a photo and short article about Marine officers holding weekly meetings with the Haditha City Council with no mention of the alleged shooting controversy.

According to the Associated Press, “Kimber, who was nominated for a Bronze Star for valor in Haditha, was relieved of command because his subordinates used profanity, removed sunglasses and criticized the performance of Iraqi security services during an interview with Britain's Sky News TV.” Kimber’s attorney is former Democrat congressional candidate Paul Hackett.

CNN reporter, Arwa Damon, writes:

“I know the Marines that were operating in western al Anbar, from Husayba all the way to Haditha. I went on countless operations in 2005 up and down the Euphrates River Valley. I was pinned on rooftops with them in Ubeydi for hours taking incoming fire, and I've seen them not fire a shot back because they did not have positive identification on a target. I saw their horror when they thought that they finally had identified their target, fired a tank round that went through a wall and into a house filled with civilians. They then rushed to help the wounded -- remarkably no one was killed.

“I was with them in Husayba as they went house to house in an area where insurgents would booby-trap doors, or lie in wait behind closed doors with an AK-47, basically on suicide missions, just waiting for the Marines to come through and open fire. There were civilians in the city as well, and the Marines were always keenly aware of that fact. How they didn't fire at shadows, not knowing what was waiting in each house, I don't know. But they didn't….”

Martin Terrazas is the father of Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, age 20 of El Paso, TX, who was the only US Marine killed in the incident. The elder Terrazas tells the Associated Press: “It is very hard for me, I don’t even listen to the news. The insurgents were hiding in there with the kids….” Miguel’s Uncle, Luis Terrazas says, “Jarheads don't just go out and kill because they get frustrated. Their training is exquisite. It just doesn't make sense."

Marine Second Lt. Ilario Pantano spoke out against Murtha’s rush to judgment in the Haditha case in a May 28 letter to the editor of the Washington Post. Wrote Pantano: “Members of the U.S. military serving in Iraq need more than Mr. Murtha's pseudo-sympathy. They need leaders to stand with them even in the hardest of times. Let the courts decide if these Marines are guilty. They haven't even been charged with a crime yet, so it is premature to presume their guilt -- unless that presumption is tied to a political motive.” Pantano should know. He was falsely charged with two counts of murder in Iraq--only to see those charges collapse when he presented autopsy results in his defense at trial.

Who are the accusers? In the haze created by the media frenzy, it may seem that there are reports from eye witnesses to the actual shooting who are not Iraqi locals. This is not true...

More at site.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm so happy this happened, hope it happens some more. Although barbaric in some eyes it is a very highly successful tactic of war, it is a war remember? It is not supposed to be like a game of tiddlywinks, it is brutal and vicious, you kill one of ours, don't tell us who are where the bad guys are or went and we smoke the village. Bet you a dollar to a doughnut nothing ever happens in Haditha again.

I love it!

I gotta agree. If the Marines snapped and retaliated against those who sit by and let killers live among them, ya gotta wonder if they are aware that others might snap. If you sit in the middle of a war and try not to pick sides, you are NOT safe.