Guns gave us a civilized society

[Koios]

My life gets a lot better if someone with a firearm uses it to neutralize a bad guy (or gal). My life also improves immeasurably when I use my firearm to put chow in the freezer. I also gain a feeling of accomplishment when I score well in a shooting competition...that kind of makes me feel better about my life, too.

And if you happen to run into a cop while carrying that firearm, in the brief moments that follow, does your life get better, or worse?

Why would it get worse? I reside in a civilized state that recognizes the benefits of allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns, as long as they meet certain requirements and declare their sidearm if accosted by a police officer. You seem to labor under the misconception that everyone runs around brandishing their firearms like your movie heroes or you video game avatars. Sorry to disappoint, but you can only be sure I am unarmed if I am in a legal, "gun free" zone.

Because cops get prickly when they're not the only ones with guns, and can possibly, be overly protective of themselves.

Hell; since I have a CCP, it shows up when I'm pulled over (license number links to me, and warns I have a CCP). So even a routine traffic stop means I need to keep my hands where they can see them, and cops approach the car with guns drawn.

It ain't all peaches and cream. There are certain drawbacks.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The number of uses of a tool is immaterial.

There are some very specialized tools that only have one use. A gun is a tool.

Tools are things we use to make life better.

Guns are things we use to end life.

Their purpose is at opposite ends of the spectrum.

We use all kinds of things to end life and I assume you are distinguishing between the life of a human and the life of a cow right?

I do not hunt and i do not plan on killing anyone with my guns so I do not use guns to end life as you say

 

[Billo_Really]

We use all kinds of things to end life and I assume you are distinguishing between the life of a human and the life of a cow right?

I do not hunt and i do not plan on killing anyone with my guns so I do not use guns to end life as you say

We are all capable of murder.

I don't think anyone would hesitate using a gun if they felt they were in a life-threatening situation. Including me.

 

[Skull Pilot]

We use all kinds of things to end life and I assume you are distinguishing between the life of a human and the life of a cow right?

I do not hunt and i do not plan on killing anyone with my guns so I do not use guns to end life as you say

We are all capable of murder.

I don't think anyone would hesitate using a gun if they felt they were in a life-threatening situation. Including me.

So you're saying that people should not be able to defend themselves with a gun when in a life threatening situation because guns kill people?

 

[gallantwarrior]

Why would it get worse? I reside in a civilized state that recognizes the benefits of allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns, as long as they meet certain requirements and declare their sidearm if accosted by a police officer. You seem to labor under the misconception that everyone runs around brandishing their firearms like your movie heroes or you video game avatars. Sorry to disappoint, but you can only be sure I am unarmed if I am in a legal, "gun free" zone.

Do you really think that the moment a cop discovers you have a weapon, the next thing he say's is "hey buddy, wussup?"

Your response reminds me of this video...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeL9gagV_VA]Dynamite Hack-"Boyz In The Hood"_ SEMI-OFFICIAL VIDEO - YouTube[/ame]

Yup.

There you go with your videos again. Pull your head out of the idiot box, try some reality. You might like it...or maybe not. It's a big, scary world outside your mommy's basement.

 

[gallantwarrior]

And if you happen to run into a cop while carrying that firearm, in the brief moments that follow, does your life get better, or worse?

Why would it get worse? I reside in a civilized state that recognizes the benefits of allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns, as long as they meet certain requirements and declare their sidearm if accosted by a police officer. You seem to labor under the misconception that everyone runs around brandishing their firearms like your movie heroes or you video game avatars. Sorry to disappoint, but you can only be sure I am unarmed if I am in a legal, "gun free" zone.

Because cops get prickly when they're not the only ones with guns, and can possibly, be overly protective of themselves.

Hell; since I have a CCP, it shows up when I'm pulled over (license number links to me, and warns I have a CCP). So even a routine traffic stop means I need to keep my hands where they can see them, and cops approach the car with guns drawn.

It ain't all peaches and cream. There are certain drawbacks.

A trade off. So, how many times have the cops shot you because you have that CCP and presumably the sidearm it authorizes you to have?

 

[gallantwarrior]

We use all kinds of things to end life and I assume you are distinguishing between the life of a human and the life of a cow right?

I do not hunt and i do not plan on killing anyone with my guns so I do not use guns to end life as you say

We are all capable of murder.

I don't think anyone would hesitate using a gun if they felt they were in a life-threatening situation. Including me.

Huge difference between murder and self-defense.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't care if someone has a gun or not.

I prefer not to put myself in situations where people want to shoot me.

I tend to agree that it's wise not to put oneself in a situation where someone wants to shoot me.

Well, I am almost positive that the people in that Aurora movie complex did not think they were putting themselves in a position where someone would want to shoot them. It was, after all, a "GUN FREE" zone. Since schools are also "GUN FREE" zones it is a near certainty that none of the 6 adults and none of the 20 children that were killed and none of the injured were thinking that they were putting themselves in the position of getting shot.

There have been people shot while walking from one building to another - no apparent motive other than for some gang-banger to earn his tag in a gang.

You can't go or stay anywhere for more than a few hours that you can't be shot. You still have to go to the store - remember the mall shooting? - or to work or someplace every day. Even if you could stay home you are still in danger of being shot.
You can claim the right to defend yourself or you can choose to be a victim. Most only get to make that choice once, so choose wisely.

Honestly, I don't think most people should consider having a gun. They wouldn't be able to use it in a real life and death situation anyway. They wouldn't practice with it or enjoy shooting it - so why have it at all?

I shoot for relaxation. I enjoy meeting good people on the range and becoming good friends. There are some who are not "my kind of folks" and there are others that I would consider reckless and dangerous, so I stay away from them. I also hunt. Wild game is healthier than comercially raised meat, it gets me into the woods, far from anyone else and I enjoy communing with nature. For me, hunting is a spiritual activity. The game must give itself freely to me before I will shoot. I am not the best hunter but I have probably passed up more game than I have shot because of my philosophy.
I have been in competition shooting for a couple of years but after a while it became too politicized for me and I quit - holding the tie for the record at the range.
Would I shoot a perp in a senario happening in a real world situation? I don't know, there are too many variables that have to be evaluated at the time. If someone breaks into my house I would attempt to hold them for the police but I fully believe that I could shoot in those circumstances to protect myself and my wife from harm and to prevent the perp from doing the same thing to anyone else. Would I kill them? More than likely. I would shoot to the middle of the central mass as I have practiced and with a 12 guage shotgun at that range it would be unlikely that the perp would be alive when the police arrived. After shooting I would stay back from my target - apart from it being a person - and wait for the police to determine if he needed an ambulance or the coroner's wagon. I may even need to get some anger counselling but it would not keep me from doing the same thing again if it became necessary. I would hire someone to come in and clean up the mess because I would do everything possible to keep the perp a "target" and not a person.

You might be asking yourself "why anger counselling"? My answer is this; I would be angry that the perp made me terminate a life, angry that he made me the shooter.
In 41 years of concealed carry I have only had to draw my gun once - and that was on a threatening animal. I surprised myself in the clarity and sense of presence that I had of the entire situation. Where my target was, what was behind it, what options I had and how it seemed like it was all in slow motion. I trained for situations but usually with a person as the target but it all played out in "autopilot" when the time came. I didn't have to shoot, the animal retreated and so did I but if it had been necessary I knew I was able to pull the trigger to defend myself and not have any collateral damage.
I still carry concealed and I still avoid dangerous places.

I never suggested that avoiding situations where you could get shot is always possible. That doesn't mean you can't use wisdom to avoid areas that are obvious.

Im all for concealed weapons.

 

[Avatar4321]

Saying we have a gun problem instead of a mental health problem in this country and proposing as a solution banning certain guns is like banning yellow toy trucks because one mentally ill kid beat another to death with one

It's just another symptom of our everyone or no one pathology.

I'd say its a symptom of our societies unwillingness to actually think. We have tons of intelligent people walking around assuming they are right about everything but not willing to actually think about anything

 

[Avatar4321]

The number of uses of a tool is immaterial.

There are some very specialized tools that only have one use. A gun is a tool.

Tools are things we use to make life better.

Guns are things we use to end life.

Their purpose is at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Your definition of a tool isn't widely accepted. The definition of a tool is something, usually a hand held device, used to accomplish a task.

There is nothing in any common definition of "tool" that says it has to be used to make life better. According to the widely accepted definition of a tool, a gun can and is considered a tool.

Oh, and my life is better if bad guys are stopped by firearms before they hurt me.

 

[Avatar4321]

My life gets a lot better if someone with a firearm uses it to neutralize a bad guy (or gal). My life also improves immeasurably when I use my firearm to put chow in the freezer. I also gain a feeling of accomplishment when I score well in a shooting competition...that kind of makes me feel better about my life, too.

And if you happen to run into a cop while carrying that firearm, in the brief moments that follow, does your life get better, or worse?

why would i be worried about a police officer if I have a firearm? I am no threat to him. he is no threat to me.

 

[Avatar4321]

We use all kinds of things to end life and I assume you are distinguishing between the life of a human and the life of a cow right?

I do not hunt and i do not plan on killing anyone with my guns so I do not use guns to end life as you say

We are all capable of murder.

I don't think anyone would hesitate using a gun if they felt they were in a life-threatening situation. Including me.

Self defense isn't murder. and sadly not everyone is capable of self defense. Their fear and inexperience often incapacitates them long enough for nothing else to matter.

 

[Koios]

My life gets a lot better if someone with a firearm uses it to neutralize a bad guy (or gal). My life also improves immeasurably when I use my firearm to put chow in the freezer. I also gain a feeling of accomplishment when I score well in a shooting competition...that kind of makes me feel better about my life, too.

And if you happen to run into a cop while carrying that firearm, in the brief moments that follow, does your life get better, or worse?

why would i be worried about a police officer if I have a firearm? I am no threat to him. he is no threat to me.

Possible he (she) might not see it that way. They do get a bit defensive when they're not the only ones toting hardware. No shit.

 

[Avatar4321]

And if you happen to run into a cop while carrying that firearm, in the brief moments that follow, does your life get better, or worse?

why would i be worried about a police officer if I have a firearm? I am no threat to him. he is no threat to me.

Possible he (she) might not see it that way. They do get a bit defensive when they're not the only ones toting hardware. No shit.

Not if you treat them with respect. Even when they dont deserve it.

 

[Koios]

why would i be worried about a police officer if I have a firearm? I am no threat to him. he is no threat to me.

Possible he (she) might not see it that way. They do get a bit defensive when they're not the only ones toting hardware. No shit.

Not if you treat them with respect. Even when they dont deserve it.

I always do, since they're real insistent of that when they know someone might be armed. As noted above, and due to my CCP, when pulled over, that pops up on the patrol car's screen. Thus cops approach guns drawn, and even in a routine traffic stop, I need to know they will and put my hands where they clearly see them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Guns are a tool, just like axes, saws, and wrecking balls.

No they're not!

Tools are things you use to build something. To create something that has a positive purpose in someone's life. To construct something.

Guns do not have any other purpose but to kill life. You can't install a new roof with a gun. You can't plow a field with a gun. You can't do anything else with a gun, except that for which it was designed to do. Kill people or predators. Anyway you look at it, it is designed to destroy. That is not a tool. Tools have a dual use, guns do not.

Strange, I don't see anything here that says tools only build, all it says is that they are used to accomplish something.

Tool - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's zero in Japan, if you are talking about gun murders.

It is above zero if I am accurate.

Not according to the chart where you got your info on the US and the UK.

0.02 is above 0.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The number of uses of a tool is immaterial.

There are some very specialized tools that only have one use. A gun is a tool.

Tools are things we use to make life better.

Guns are things we use to end life.

Their purpose is at opposite ends of the spectrum.

One of the points of this thread is that guns make life better. So far not a single person has actually refuted that premise.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That is not my contention at all, my contention is that guns neutralize force so that reason has a better chance to win the argument. The best example of this is the cold war doctrine of mutually assured destruction. I thought it was ridiculous at the time, and actually expected it to fail at any moment. Instead, because two bitter enemies both knew that they could not win a fight, they talked, and they eventually figured out a way to come together and work toward a common goal for no other reason that force was removed from the equation.

MAD and a gun fight are not even on the same level unless perhaps in a gang war, where your being shot might be avenged by a fellow gang member(s).

A gunfight is IAD (maybe), since one individual will be shot but their destruction is far from assured.

Ridiculous. You should have stuck with your original retort. This is getting more absurd with each post.

And if were likening gun ownership to MAD, let's go hog wild ...

1. We have it now; I shoot and kill you and I might destroy myself (20 years on death row and lethal injection). Our laws preventing misuse, make it mutually likely destruction.

2. Some kook president or general secretary with his/her finger on the button is what we feared most. And some kook killing school kids is very much the same: wants to kill others without regard for their own safety. And here's the rub: we never feared that until we had a PROLIFERATION OF NUKE WEAPONS!!! (noodle on that, within the context of the proliferation of hand guns in America; you might have an epiphany.)

1. They do? Are you saying that every murder in this country is solved by the police, and that every murderer is, eventually, killed by lethal injection?
2. Actually, what we feared most was what would happen if some crazy guy got his finger on the trigger and the other side couldn't shoot back.

The simple fact is, it worked.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Guns turned the American west from a place where the strong triumphed over the weak to a place where farmers planted crops and built towns that became cities.

Some towns in the "old west" banned guns from the city limits.

I own guns and would be against an end to the 2nd amendment BUT saying that guns "gave us civilization" is just plain wrong and wishful thinking.

The US is a very violent society. More guns doesn't help that fact. 310 Million guns and STILL we have mass murders and ore than 30 murders every day. Where are the gun owners? Why aren't they stopping all those murders?

Owning guns didn't save Adam Lanza's mother.

OTOH, if one believes that more guns is the answer, no one is stopping "you" from buying more guns.

They only banned some people from having guns inside city limits, which is why it grated on the nerves of the people who were singled out.