Gun Wisdom

[Dr Grump]

Jones is the officer accused of slamming Richard McVicker to the ground after a traffic collision involving the officer’s mother. Jones first court appearance was today in court, but his lawyer, George Laughrun, showed up on his behalf.



About a year ago, the Charlotte Observer requested detailed information about suspensions from the city and the police department. A new state law had made public for the first time information about a public employee’s suspensions, demotions, and dismissals.

The list we received from the city had hundreds of suspensions on them, most for small amounts of time. But a few officers, like Jones, had multiple suspensions or suspensions of a week or more.

Crime & Punishment: Officer charged with assault had been suspended for 6 weeks

The above has what to do with guns? What is your point?

The drunk guy who got slammed should have had a firearm and shot the cop?
Ah, I don't think so.

That some cops act like ass hats? Yuppers....And?

It show abuse of police powers and how they cover it up. Who said the guy who slammed into the car of the cops mother was drunk?

Different subject for a different thread.....

 

[Dr Grump]

Using ANYTHING as an offensive weapon is outlawed in the UK. Doesn't seem to stop the bastards from stabbing, beating, cutting, bashing, shooting (on the rise now that guns have been outlawed), etc. etc. etc.

Australia is a great example of what happens in a disarmed country. Violent crime has risen 44% since guns were outlawed there. Here in the US a HOT burglery (in other words the burglar enters the home KNOWING there is a person inside) occurs 16% of the time. In Australia it is 85% of the time. The reason why this is important is HOT burglaries are most often associated with violent assaults on the inhabitants.

Feel free to look up the statistics from the NSW police reports. I have many friends within the NSW police and corrections departments and they describe it as a war zone.

I live in NSW - Sydney to be precise. Have no idea what you are talking about - no war zone here. A couple of dodgy suburbs for sure, but nothing major. Did you get the same info from where you got the info about the UK? I posted a link on that and notice you have ignored it. I wonder why

Don't get out much do you skippy...

"You get a spate of them and over the last 12 months we've seen a 20 per cent increase in the number of cases where there's been a discharge of a firearm in a premises, a drive-by shooting if you like," Dr Weatherburn said.

Statistics confirm spike in Sydney gun crime - Yahoo!7

I get out plenty and read the Sydney Morning Herald every morning. I reckon there have been about four or five incidents of shooting this year, four or which have been attributed to a fued between two Lebanese families.

That aside, your story offers no context. When you say it has gone up 20 percent, has it gone from 1000 to 1200 incidents a year, or 10 to 12? Both stats involve a 20 percent increase, but obviously one is of more concern than the other.

You see, context matters....

 

[Dr Grump]

Probably history. As much as they have attempted to write the gun history out of the books it is there and unequivocal. The other difference is social. Americans have ALLWAYS been free (except for the abomination of slavery of course) whereas most of Europe had to go through a long period of wresting control away from the various royals who wanted to keep them under their foot.

Royalty only allowed them so much freedom so they are used to having their freedoms curtailed. Here in the US banning a music video is very rare (in fact I can't think of one that has been banned) in the UK it is fairly common. One of my favourite Police songs "Invisible Sun" is banned because of images of a little Irish boy tossing a rock at a British Army Saracen APC.

I can go on at length, but I think you get my basic hypothesis.

Invisible Sun was allegedly banned by the BBC. not other outlets...

At the time it was banned what were the other outlets?

It was also not findable in New Zealand where I was living at the time, nor could I see it when I visited my mates in Melbourne, Yorktown, or Broken Hill. Nowadays I'll grant you that it can be seen anywhere thanks to the internet and the new media sources, but when it first came out there wasn't much alternative media. New Zealand had two channels on the telly and they switched off at 10pm. We rarely watched the telly when I was in Oz as there frankly wasn't much worth watching and we were to busy doing other things anyway!

I remember listening to is on the radio in New Zealand - and tv was switched off and midnight..(I'm a NZer who lived there for 40 years and have been living in Oz for 4..;o).

 

[Dr Grump]

Don't get out much do you skippy...

"You get a spate of them and over the last 12 months we've seen a 20 per cent increase in the number of cases where there's been a discharge of a firearm in a premises, a drive-by shooting if you like," Dr Weatherburn said.

Statistics confirm spike in Sydney gun crime - Yahoo!7

You're hanging your hat on a "recent spike"?!?! That story about increases in gun crimes has been around since the 90s. I'm afraid a single news article doesn't suffice as a source for what we're discussing.

Go back and look at what happened to the crime statistics when guns were outlawed in Australia then you can get back to us. Yes gun crimes dipped for a short time after the ban. Then, they began an inexorable rise that continues with cyclic dips to this day.

Here is a beginning for you.

4510.0 - Recorded Crime, Australia, 2001

This is the bit that makes me laugh....You see, guns have never been big in NZ or Australia... Even before Port Arthur and the ban, people down here are just not armed. It's not part of the national psyche. Never has been, never will. And whether any rise in any crime is due to a lack of guns or not is contentious to say the least. There could be a myriad of reasons for increases or decreases - increase in population; police not targetting certain crimes; less police on the street; more reportage of crime; new definitions of certain crime - I could go on,...


BTW., you still have not answered my post that linked to a Guardian report that stated there had been a slight increase in UK crime after 16 years of consecutive falls, in response to your statement that crime in the UK was rising rapidly...

 

[jillian]

Probably history. As much as they have attempted to write the gun history out of the books it is there and unequivocal. The other difference is social. Americans have ALLWAYS been free (except for the abomination of slavery of course) whereas most of Europe had to go through a long period of wresting control away from the various royals who wanted to keep them under their foot.

Royalty only allowed them so much freedom so they are used to having their freedoms curtailed. Here in the US banning a music video is very rare (in fact I can't think of one that has been banned) in the UK it is fairly common. One of my favourite Police songs "Invisible Sun" is banned because of images of a little Irish boy tossing a rock at a British Army Saracen APC.

I can go on at length, but I think you get my basic hypothesis.

Invisible Sun was allegedly banned by the BBC. not other outlets...

The bottom line though, Grump, is that WE live in America, and YOU do not. Therefore you have exactly ZERO standing to tell us what our laws should be, just as I have exactly ZERO standing to tell you what the law should be where you live. Same goes for telling us what ideology YOU think should govern OUR country. You've had your say; my response, is that I do not give a rat's rear end what you think, and that I see no reason to do so.

does that mean you think you don't have the right to tell people what to do in iraq?

and please don't use "we"... when you mean "you"...because most of us don't care what you think. "thup:

 

[Dr Grump]

Go back and look at what happened to the crime statistics when guns were outlawed in Australia then you can get back to us. Yes gun crimes dipped for a short time after the ban. Then, they began an inexorable rise that continues with cyclic dips to this day.

Here is a beginning for you.

4510.0 - Recorded Crime, Australia, 2001

From your cite, hmmm....

The proportion of robberies where a weapon was used in 2001 (42%) is similar to the 1993 figure, when this series commenced. The use of firearms has declined as a proportion of all robberies (down from 16% to 6%). In 3.5% of cases, a syringe was used.

And do you see where I acknowledged the immediate dip? And then if you look further you'll see that gun violence has been on a steady climb...did you see that yet? In a country supposedly DEVOID of guns.

Australia is not even close to being 'devoid' of guns. It is devoid of a certain class/type of weapon. I can go and get a gun license tomorrow and get a gun if I so wish...

At the end of the day, it is such a non issue down here nobody gives a rats...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

And what happened to the police involved in those incidents?

And what happen to the people after the cops killed them?
Who gives a rats ass about what happen to the cops they are alive and the people they killed are dead no matter how hard you try the dead are gone and the cops are alive.

As I said it's all in context...you aren't giving any..shrug..

What context do you need? Cops in New Orleans shot and murdered unarmed no threat citizens

 

[The Gadfly]

Invisible Sun was allegedly banned by the BBC. not other outlets...

The bottom line though, Grump, is that WE live in America, and YOU do not. Therefore you have exactly ZERO standing to tell us what our laws should be, just as I have exactly ZERO standing to tell you what the law should be where you live. Same goes for telling us what ideology YOU think should govern OUR country. You've had your say; my response, is that I do not give a rat's rear end what you think, and that I see no reason to do so.

Bottom line is I don't really give a shit what YOU think. This is a messageboard and I'll say what I like.

As for who should govern your country I'm sure those in Iraq, Afghanistan, Japan, Germany, South Korea, Saudi Arabia (have I missed any countries that have your military bases in it?) feel pretty similar, as do those Central and South American govts in the 70s and 80s that were undermined by yours...

As I said, you had your say; I simply pointed out for the benefit of everyone else here what perspective and standing your remarks come from. As for your little list, we are in most of those nations at the invitation of the host governments, which each have their own reasons for desiring a U.S. military presence in their country.. We are in the others as a result of having to police a good part of the world because some nations cannot or will not clean their own house, and others refuse to step up and do their share to alleviate the situation; it is hardly our fault that many nations refuse to share the burden of keeping the peace, preferring instead to sit on the sidelines carping and bitching about how we do the job they refuse to do. I note that we most certainly DO NOT dictate the internal policies of Australia or New Zealand, and this American would take it kindly if you in turn did not attempt to dictate ours, at least until you can come here and MAKE us do it your way; a task which is a bit more than you can handle. Our British cousins tried that-twice, as a matter of fact. You might ask them how that worked out for them. In the meantime, I really don't care how you do things "down under".

 

[westwall]

Invisible Sun was allegedly banned by the BBC. not other outlets...

At the time it was banned what were the other outlets?

It was also not findable in New Zealand where I was living at the time, nor could I see it when I visited my mates in Melbourne, Yorktown, or Broken Hill. Nowadays I'll grant you that it can be seen anywhere thanks to the internet and the new media sources, but when it first came out there wasn't much alternative media. New Zealand had two channels on the telly and they switched off at 10pm. We rarely watched the telly when I was in Oz as there frankly wasn't much worth watching and we were to busy doing other things anyway!

I remember listening to is on the radio in New Zealand - and tv was switched off and midnight..(I'm a NZer who lived there for 40 years and have been living in Oz for 4..;o).

Where in NZed did you live? I was based out of Christchurch for two years (around 30 years ago) but spent most of my time over near Westport and Karamea. I still get Montieths shipped up to me by friends, though now I hear, it can be obtained in DC here because of the embassy there.

And as regards the song, I never stated it was banned, I said the video was.
In fact I just did a search on youtube and can't find it anywhere. I did find several "where can I find the banned video" messages however.

I also did a wiki search, as that seems to be the limit of research ability for most on here and the link is to that. According to wiki (allways a dubious idea) the song is still banned by the beeb.

"The music video for "Invisible Sun" features a collection of video clips taken from the conflict in Northern Ireland. Due to its subject matter, it was banned by the BBC.[2] "Invisible Sun" was also used as the opening music to the BBC 'Play for Today' film The Long March (1981), written by Belfast writer Anne Devlin."

Invisible Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[westwall]

From your cite, hmmm....

The proportion of robberies where a weapon was used in 2001 (42%) is similar to the 1993 figure, when this series commenced. The use of firearms has declined as a proportion of all robberies (down from 16% to 6%). In 3.5% of cases, a syringe was used.

And do you see where I acknowledged the immediate dip? And then if you look further you'll see that gun violence has been on a steady climb...did you see that yet? In a country supposedly DEVOID of guns.

Australia is not even close to being 'devoid' of guns. It is devoid of a certain class/type of weapon. I can go and get a gun license tomorrow and get a gun if I so wish...

At the end of the day, it is such a non issue down here nobody gives a rats...

Please describe the process for buying a handgun, a self loading rifle, and a shotgun. BTW I had a Class C license (allowed to own but not shoot machine guns, we did that on the army ranges with our friends there, there's allways a way!) when I was in NZ so know the process in both countries quite well. I have a good friend who is still a gun dealer in Yorktown and we exchange emails weekly.

 

[westwall]

You're hanging your hat on a "recent spike"?!?! That story about increases in gun crimes has been around since the 90s. I'm afraid a single news article doesn't suffice as a source for what we're discussing.

Go back and look at what happened to the crime statistics when guns were outlawed in Australia then you can get back to us. Yes gun crimes dipped for a short time after the ban. Then, they began an inexorable rise that continues with cyclic dips to this day.

Here is a beginning for you.

4510.0 - Recorded Crime, Australia, 2001

This is the bit that makes me laugh....You see, guns have never been big in NZ or Australia... Even before Port Arthur and the ban, people down here are just not armed. It's not part of the national psyche. Never has been, never will. And whether any rise in any crime is due to a lack of guns or not is contentious to say the least. There could be a myriad of reasons for increases or decreases - increase in population; police not targetting certain crimes; less police on the street; more reportage of crime; new definitions of certain crime - I could go on,...


BTW., you still have not answered my post that linked to a Guardian report that stated there had been a slight increase in UK crime after 16 years of consecutive falls, in response to your statement that crime in the UK was rising rapidly...

It is in the Outback. It is impossible to find a farm or a residence in the Outback without a firearm. When the ban first went into effect the Northern Territory declared it would not enforce the ban (you see during WWII the whole area was abandoned to the Japanese and the enemy made three landings in the Territory that were shot back into the ocean by civilians and what few military were there) those were dark days and theresidents don't forget that abandonment.

The road from Mount Isa to Tennant Creek was called the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all of the weapons heading north. You don't even know your own adopted country very well.

 

[logical4u]

Yes, and there are several other factors you chooses to ignore. First off the US has a population greater then most of Europe. Secondly we have a true mixture of races. If you look at the gun deaths they are mainly among the black and hispanic races. This is not a racist statement it is merely a fact.

There was a well known study that compared gun deaths in Seatle vs gun deaths in Vancouver two decades ago. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was someting on the order of 75 in Seatle and 5 in Vancouver. When you subtract the deaths from hispanics and blacks the numbers were the same, 5 and 5.

Why the disparity? I don't know. But the fact remains there is tremendous racial stress that exhists in the US that doesn't exist in Europe. That manifests itself in gang violence (overwhelmingly involving black and hispanics) and sadly they resort to gun violence at the drop of a hat. Once again this is not meant to be a racist rant it is the presentation of factual data that you can obtain from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports.

In Britan, the numbers are climbing for people killed by knives. In the middle east and Africa, deaths can be from "explosions", machettes, stones, knives or guns. Kind of puts it in perspective, doesn't it?

It is? Links....

Knife Killings in City Increased 50 Percent in 2008

Scotland's knife killings reach record numbers - Crime - UK - The Independent
Login - Glasgowgangland.com
Knives used in four out of 10 youth killings in UK | UK news | The Guardian
Knife killings out-number gun murders 3 - 1 (Bob Russell)
Is Gun Control Likely To Reduce Violent Killings?
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../7300139/Record-knife-killings-in-Scotland.html

if you care about the "facts", do a search on "number of knife killings" and there are many, many more links. You may not want to though, it could interfer with your narrow view of "guns".

 

[Dr Grump]

Go back and look at what happened to the crime statistics when guns were outlawed in Australia then you can get back to us. Yes gun crimes dipped for a short time after the ban. Then, they began an inexorable rise that continues with cyclic dips to this day.

Here is a beginning for you.

4510.0 - Recorded Crime, Australia, 2001

This is the bit that makes me laugh....You see, guns have never been big in NZ or Australia... Even before Port Arthur and the ban, people down here are just not armed. It's not part of the national psyche. Never has been, never will. And whether any rise in any crime is due to a lack of guns or not is contentious to say the least. There could be a myriad of reasons for increases or decreases - increase in population; police not targetting certain crimes; less police on the street; more reportage of crime; new definitions of certain crime - I could go on,...


BTW., you still have not answered my post that linked to a Guardian report that stated there had been a slight increase in UK crime after 16 years of consecutive falls, in response to your statement that crime in the UK was rising rapidly...

It is in the Outback. It is impossible to find a farm or a residence in the Outback without a firearm. When the ban first went into effect the Northern Territory declared it would not enforce the ban (you see during WWII the whole area was abandoned to the Japanese and the enemy made three landings in the Territory that were shot back into the ocean by civilians and what few military were there) those were dark days and theresidents don't forget that abandonment.

The road from Mount Isa to Tennant Creek was called the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all of the weapons heading north. You don't even know your own adopted country very well.

I'm actually trying to figure out what this post has to do with mine. I'm talking current crime trends, you're talking WWII....

 

[logical4u]

Yeah, please don't check if somebody has just come out of the looney bin.

Your response does not negate the validity of my point.

Naw, hand them a peashooter as they walk out the gate....

Straw, man.

It absolutely does. What you are trying to say is, that because you think your rights might be infringed that it better to allow loons to be armed than infringe on what you think might be lost.

To which I say "bollocks". The collective freedom and safety of the people (ie, not having to worry about somebody who is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic running around shooting folks) is more important than what you think you have 'lost'. If you think every Tom, Dick and ex-Felon should have a firearm, go live in Somalia.

Straw man my arse....it's a valid point and you know it. You want the Constitution of 1776 to apply? Go find a time machine and go live there. Times change, thus the amendment process to your constitution...

Don't worry, nobody wants to take your peashooter away from you, just those who don't have the mental wherewithall to be in control of one, or those that have shown in the past (ie ex felons) that they should never have a firearm...

If everyone was packin', then there wouldn't be very many people "shooting folks" that were "a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic". Just sayin'

Somalia is an example of islam Shariah at work. Everywhere that "system" goes, there is deceit, death, destruction and dust.

 

[Dr Grump]

And do you see where I acknowledged the immediate dip? And then if you look further you'll see that gun violence has been on a steady climb...did you see that yet? In a country supposedly DEVOID of guns.

Australia is not even close to being 'devoid' of guns. It is devoid of a certain class/type of weapon. I can go and get a gun license tomorrow and get a gun if I so wish...

At the end of the day, it is such a non issue down here nobody gives a rats...

Please describe the process for buying a handgun, a self loading rifle, and a shotgun. BTW I had a Class C license (allowed to own but not shoot machine guns, we did that on the army ranges with our friends there, there's allways a way!) when I was in NZ so know the process in both countries quite well. I have a good friend who is still a gun dealer in Yorktown and we exchange emails weekly.

Not 100 percent about Oz, but in NZ you have to belong to a gun club to buy a hand gun and it has to be stored there. To buy a shotgun or rifle you have to have a firearms license. In order to get one of those you have to have backgrounds checks and sit a test whereby you have to have a pass rate of 85% (well it used to be that, not too sure now). How do I know? I was a cop in NZ and we had to do the test so we could use a firearm if we had to, even though we, as a rule, were not armed.

 

[Dr Grump]

At the time it was banned what were the other outlets?

It was also not findable in New Zealand where I was living at the time, nor could I see it when I visited my mates in Melbourne, Yorktown, or Broken Hill. Nowadays I'll grant you that it can be seen anywhere thanks to the internet and the new media sources, but when it first came out there wasn't much alternative media. New Zealand had two channels on the telly and they switched off at 10pm. We rarely watched the telly when I was in Oz as there frankly wasn't much worth watching and we were to busy doing other things anyway!

I remember listening to is on the radio in New Zealand - and tv was switched off and midnight..(I'm a NZer who lived there for 40 years and have been living in Oz for 4..;o).

Where in NZed did you live? I was based out of Christchurch for two years (around 30 years ago) but spent most of my time over near Westport and Karamea. I still get Montieths shipped up to me by friends, though now I hear, it can be obtained in DC here because of the embassy there.

And as regards the song, I never stated it was banned, I said the video was.
In fact I just did a search on youtube and can't find it anywhere. I did find several "where can I find the banned video" messages however.

I also did a wiki search, as that seems to be the limit of research ability for most on here and the link is to that. According to wiki (allways a dubious idea) the song is still banned by the beeb.

"The music video for "Invisible Sun" features a collection of video clips taken from the conflict in Northern Ireland. Due to its subject matter, it was banned by the BBC.[2] "Invisible Sun" was also used as the opening music to the BBC 'Play for Today' film The Long March (1981), written by Belfast writer Anne Devlin."

Invisible Sun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, if you were in Christchurch, you would recognise that I was from Dorkland, or to us normal folk, Auckland...;o)
Still have a house there, and rent here, so staying here is not permenant yet, although our kids like it a lot.

Yep, it was banned by the beeb, just like God Save the Queen by the Sex Pistols...

 

[westwall]

This is the bit that makes me laugh....You see, guns have never been big in NZ or Australia... Even before Port Arthur and the ban, people down here are just not armed. It's not part of the national psyche. Never has been, never will. And whether any rise in any crime is due to a lack of guns or not is contentious to say the least. There could be a myriad of reasons for increases or decreases - increase in population; police not targetting certain crimes; less police on the street; more reportage of crime; new definitions of certain crime - I could go on,...


BTW., you still have not answered my post that linked to a Guardian report that stated there had been a slight increase in UK crime after 16 years of consecutive falls, in response to your statement that crime in the UK was rising rapidly...

It is in the Outback. It is impossible to find a farm or a residence in the Outback without a firearm. When the ban first went into effect the Northern Territory declared it would not enforce the ban (you see during WWII the whole area was abandoned to the Japanese and the enemy made three landings in the Territory that were shot back into the ocean by civilians and what few military were there) those were dark days and theresidents don't forget that abandonment.

The road from Mount Isa to Tennant Creek was called the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all of the weapons heading north. You don't even know your own adopted country very well.

I'm actually trying to figure out what this post has to do with mine. I'm talking current crime trends, you're talking WWII....

No, I'm talking immediate post ban in Oz and giving it context for those who actually care about history.

 

[Dr Grump]

In Britan, the numbers are climbing for people killed by knives. In the middle east and Africa, deaths can be from "explosions", machettes, stones, knives or guns. Kind of puts it in perspective, doesn't it?

It is? Links....

Knife Killings in City Increased 50 Percent in 2008

Scotland's knife killings reach record numbers - Crime - UK - The Independent
Login - Glasgowgangland.com
Knives used in four out of 10 youth killings in UK | UK news | The Guardian
Knife killings out-number gun murders 3 - 1 (Bob Russell)
Is Gun Control Likely To Reduce Violent Killings?
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../7300139/Record-knife-killings-in-Scotland.html

if you care about the "facts", do a search on "number of knife killings" and there are many, many more links. You may not want to though, it could interfer with your narrow view of "guns".

I don't have a narrow view of guns, I just don't think about them that often...;o)

 

[logical4u]

No you didn't You wanted links now you have them you act stupid as if you that wasn't what you wanted. I am sure it isn't because it agrees with logical4u comment. Now move along before you burn out that last half of a brain cell you have left.

Just ask Logic next time he's around where all this is leading to...once we get there, maybe you can join back in the convo if you're up to it...

If people do not have guns, they will use other weapons to murder. Can you understand that?
Good, now let's move on to the reasoning part....
If people do not have guns, the most ruthless, evil will have their way, because they will either murder those that do not go along with them or "torture" them. Is this making sense (Somalia)?
Therefore, if people have "guns", those that would normally do evil, are "persuaded" (even the most evil person is not willing to walk into a situation where they are most likely to be killed if they try to use force against others) to behave themselves.
Did you use your reason, do you understand, now?
Therefore, the more "good" people that have guns, the less the "bad" people will be likely to act on their evil intentions (many of the "bad" people will even become useful in society, if the "persuasion" is consistent enough.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Go back and look at what happened to the crime statistics when guns were outlawed in Australia then you can get back to us. Yes gun crimes dipped for a short time after the ban. Then, they began an inexorable rise that continues with cyclic dips to this day.

Here is a beginning for you.

4510.0 - Recorded Crime, Australia, 2001

This is the bit that makes me laugh....You see, guns have never been big in NZ or Australia... Even before Port Arthur and the ban, people down here are just not armed. It's not part of the national psyche. Never has been, never will. And whether any rise in any crime is due to a lack of guns or not is contentious to say the least. There could be a myriad of reasons for increases or decreases - increase in population; police not targetting certain crimes; less police on the street; more reportage of crime; new definitions of certain crime - I could go on,...


BTW., you still have not answered my post that linked to a Guardian report that stated there had been a slight increase in UK crime after 16 years of consecutive falls, in response to your statement that crime in the UK was rising rapidly...

It is in the Outback. It is impossible to find a farm or a residence in the Outback without a firearm. When the ban first went into effect the Northern Territory declared it would not enforce the ban (you see during WWII the whole area was abandoned to the Japanese and the enemy made three landings in the Territory that were shot back into the ocean by civilians and what few military were there) those were dark days and theresidents don't forget that abandonment.

The road from Mount Isa to Tennant Creek was called the Ho Chi Minh trail because of all of the weapons heading north. You don't even know your own adopted country very well.

Yes anti gunners around the world do not like people to remind them of ww2 and how civilians fought with the guns the civilians owned.