Gun sales plunge for Smith & Wesson: Can Gun Nutters Save Smith & Wesson? Having 100 Guns, too few?

[Daryl Hunt]

Oh, I see. It's Progressive to want safe firearms. It's progressive to demand that the sales pitch for a firearm is truthful. It's Progressive to demand that we get safe weapons? Hate to break it to you but that's Capitalism at it's best. What you want is to make sales to stupid people by misrepresenting the cheap junk as something it's not. Here is what Mil Spec Means for the firing chamber which the MP15 doesn't meet.

The rifle you are pushing has a SAAMI chamber. Which means it's like the traditional chamber. It's tight against the bullet. No room. SAAMI is the standard that all civilian guns have to meet. And the 223 was created in 1962 to meet that criteria and has been frozen to that standard ever since. The Chamber is made as small as possible to utilize as much energy as possible from the lower powered 223 round.

Them we have the Mil Spec. At first glance, this seems inferior because it's not as tight. The reason it's not as tight, it allows more space for gas expansion before the bullet exits the chamber. The Pressure is much higher than the 223. This does not comply with the SAAMI standard and has been changed many times since 1959 when it was first introduced. It's constantly been updated for maximum efficiency.

Can you safely fire a 223 in a mil spec 556 chamber? Sure you can but the downside is, you will lose accuracy and velocity compared to firing it out of a SAAMI chamber that has been optimized for the 223. That extra headspace will bleed off pressure that should be used to propel the bullet down the barrel.

Can you safely fire a 556 Nato Round out of a 223 SAAMI chamber? Most of the time. I doubt if it will ever blow up in your face. But it will slowly degrade your barrel over time. And it will sooner or later have an annoying problem of popping primers into the mechanism which will jam the gun. The popped primer isn't too unsafe, it's just damned annoying. The more you fire that 556 through your SAAMI chamber the more it's going to start happening as the barrel (Chamber) wears. When this happens, it's time to change out your barrel.

The gun that Dipstick is pushing is a SAAMI. It's the bottom of the barrel. If you want a much better rifle that will last longer, shoot straighter, and more, look for these other qualities. But you will have to pay for them.

.223 Wylde, Anything rated as match, Anything rated as NATO. None of these seem to have any trouble with the 556. But the 223 Wilde and anything rated Match also has no trouble with the 223 either. The Nato is specifically tuned to the 556 Nato so it's going to degrade a bit with the 223. The good news is, you might, and I strongly don't suggest this, might be able to fit one of the better barrels to the MP15 rifle. I would suggest you also change out the bolt as well to a better bolt. By the time you get a decent rifle by doing this, you could have bought a decent one for the same amount of money without having to modify it.

When I buy a gun, I expect it to last the next 100 years or so. My Great Grandkids can fire it up long after I am gone and it works just like it did the day it came out of the factory. I don't need to be spending hundreds of dollars on something that will be constantly having to replace parts on to keep it servicable. These are Toasters which I throw away when they break. And they certainly should not be made in China. If it's made in America, I expect quality and should be required to pay for quality. All of a sudden, that Mini-14 doesn't look so bad anymore even if it is a bit more cumbersome to change the mag out on. The Mini-14 costs not much more than the junk AR but it's a 100 year or better gun. I respect that.

So is there a difference between an AR-15 and a Mini-14? For the money, you bet. Buy the Mini-14 and get something your Great Grand Kids will enjoy.

“generally, shooting .223 through a 5.56 chamber results in lower pressure, but still functions (safely). Firing 5.56 through a .223 chamber, however, results in somewhat higher pressures. Although the differences aren’t massive (~5% in the previously referenced study), extensive firing of 5.56 through a .223 chamber could lead to over-pressure malfunctions, such as popped primers or blown cartridge case heads and other firearm malfunctions”

Wow, you are learning. Slowly even with the head hitting the wall repeatedly, but you are learning.

Well, you safely shoot either cartridge in the m&p 15 sport... a great entry level sporting rifle

You already said it was not either milspec or match. If it's neither then I don't suggest it. But you do it if you want. Not everyone in here believes you on this subject.

People are gonna believe you over Smith and Wesson? Now that’s fucking funny

Actually, S$W only claims the finish is Mil Spec. Yes, it's chambered for the 556. After research and disregarding everything off of the S$W site, I found out it was chambered for the 556 Nato. But I looked a bit closer and found it still used the SAAMI bolt (cheaper to make) and the barrel was the same basic one used for the SAAMI as well (they just drilled the chamber out to 556). S$W is trying to horn in on the 556 Nato Round ARs with an inferior gun made from inferior parts. You want to see what a decent, moderately priced 556 Nato Round Mil Spec one looks like, check out the Colt LE6920. There is a reason that Swat Teams use it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

They didn't go with the anti-gun nutz. They put all their eggs into the AR type weapons and that was just a bubble. No matter what the gun nutters say, the sales have slowed way down on those things since just about everyone has found out that "We ain't going to take all your guns away from you" by force. Instead, Remington started making cheaper versions of what was once first class rifles, shotguns and handguns. They sunk their money into producing junk AR style guns. They got lazy and complacent. Meanwhile, the other companies upped their games and didn't spend nearly as much time on the ARs as Remington and they still turned out good quality guns other than junk ARs. Oh, the other companies still churned out junk ARs but just not as many in comparison to the non AR guns. In fact, the other companies actually got better in quality in many areas. Remington just got worse. They are now in their death knoll and really, no one but the gun nutters who demand cheap garbage ARs will miss them.

I see where the venerable models that Remington used to offer are all but gone. Their selection has dwindled in Shotguns, Rifles and handguns. I have owned both a model 700 which is very long and a model 660 which is very short. I enjoyed the carbine more than the long rifle since I could use it as a saddle gun or a pack gun without getting it ripped to pieces by limbs as much. I replaced my old venerable Model 99 303 Savage which met the size critieria but couldn't really hit a danged thing past 50 yds and kill it (it punched a nice hole in and out). The Model 660 was a 30.06 and did the job at almost any range. They killed the 600 series and all of their Carbines died with it. The Model 700 is all that is left if you want something that long. I, personally, like a shorter gun.

You don't know what you are talking about, yet you keep posting.....

What's the matter, you hate it that your most prized AR manufacturer is probably going to tits up? Welcome to the business world of Competition.

S&W AR platform is garbage. Daniel Defense is premium

-Geaux

Daniel Defense AR copy starts out at 1900 bucks and it's Mil Spec or Match Grade. And it just gets better the more you spend. Those are definitely not junk. If I were to own an AR Copy, it would be one of those.

Hmmm...An AR to military specs. Interesting. Attention, Militia members!

You want a real piece of history, you can buy an AR-15 Model 601 (M16) for right around 3000 bucks but you are going to need your own FFL license to buy and own it. It's the Daddy of the modern AR-15, M-4 and M-16. It's fully auto. You will notice the M16 in number. That means it was one of the original AR-15 model 601s that started it all for the United States Air Force and it was upgraded to the M-16A-2 standards or Colts Number, the AR-15 Model 603 which only became the M-16A-2 when accepted by the Military. That makes it made from 1964 to 1967. If you want a real M-16A-1 (full auto) you are going to pay over 15K for almost a basket case. The 3 grand buys you a well cared for AR-15 Model 601 (M16). The Model 601 was released to the Public in 1992. Now, that is what I call Mil Spec.

 

[there4eyeM]

Not being an assault type warrior, I prefer to stand off and snipe from safe meters away and reduce and demoralize the opposition (wounding is even better than killing as is takes several others to aid such a casualty). For that, a nice accurate rifle is fine. And for three thousand dollars I can have that, a shotgun if they get close, a .357 for in between and enough money left over for ammo.