"Government" is Not the Problem.

[Slade3200]

Are none of you right wingers smart enough to factor in the effect of the auto industry moving to Mexico on the economy and tax base for the City of Detroit, prior to the bankruptcy? Or even consider that said loss of the entire economic foundation of the "Motor City" was possibly the real reason why the City went bankrupt?

Let's clearly understand .... the effect of the auto industry moving to Mexico is determined, solely, by the city of Detroit. It is the City of Detroit that CHOOSES its tax impact on the corporations. It is the City of Detroit that knowingly increases the tax load on the auto companies causing them to consider moving. It is the City of Detroit that drives the cost of labor up by intentionally raising the tax rates paid by its citizens.

You fail to admit that the answer is much simpler ... and much crueler. The government of the City of Detroit intentionally and knowingly created an adverse financial environment for the auto companies. They intentionally and knowingly chose to disregard the long term impact of their policies, believing that the Golden Goose would stay. They decided to sacrifice long term security for short term greed. Then, they, and their minions, have the audacity to complain when the company seeks a more beneficial financial environment.

I know it's fun to blame everything on the government but let's not forget about labor and facility costs... Both significantly higher in the states than other countries.

 

[Slade3200]

The guns in your house are there because you have permission to have them from the government.

​

Somewhere along the line, you failed to grasp the very essence of our democracy.

The government does not control the people - the people control the government. With the permission of the people, the government is assigned certain activities that we, in turn, agree to follow. The 'common defense' is obviously the easiest example.

However, for the past 60 years, the government has been usurping, and assigning to itself, the responsibilities of the people. By our inaction, we have allowed the government to amass significant power and control over the people.

This illegal activity is the very essence of the upcoming election. Progressives believe that a strong government is needed to control the people. Conservatives believe that a weak government is needed so it can be controlled BY the people. Both views are Utopian. The answer, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

The last 8 years have seen a massive push to government control. Four more years, particularly with the SCOTUS hanging in the balance, would be catastrophic to the concept of self-government. In fact, it is fair to say that if the Progressives are successful, the American democracy, as our forefathers intended and our fathers gave their lives for, will morph into a socialist democracy, and fade into the background of history.

When you say "the people" who do you mean? How is that voice heard?

That was exactly the point ... the "people" - you and me - sat on our fat asses and ignored what they were doing. As long as it didn't directly affect us, we ignored it. Instead, we should have made ourselves informed, elected officials who supported our point of view, and directly made our voices heard.

Once, we controlled the government ... WE decided what the policies were going to be. Then, we got fat and lazy ... ignoring our responsibility as citizens, and allowed the government to take over.

Now, it is time to take control back ... by whatever means necessary.

I still don't know what you mean. The people's voice is heard through their vote and the representatives that we elect. Is this process the thing that you are objecting to or are you objecting to the job that our elected officials are doing?

 

[Slade3200]

You think prices skyrocketed because of government regulations?! While they do play a factor, you are forgetting about the main culprits which are the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

1) Insurance companies do not make massive profits on the sale of insurance. In 2015, the average profit margin on health insurance was less than 5%.

2) Insurance premiums are designed to meet the insurance claims, cost of business, and a small (3-5%) margin for risk and variations in the claim load.

3) Insurance companies make their profits by using your money as investments. You give them your money, and they buy stocks, bonds, invest in businesses, etc. When a claim is made, they liquidate part of their investment portfolio and pay the claim. Insurance companies are, by definition, very conservative investors, but their typical return on investment runs about 12-16% per annum. Given the current stock market volatility, they have been making significantly more in recent years.

4) Insurance companies do NOT raise their premiums in order to make greater profits. They raise their rates in order to cover their costs, and rely on their investment portfolios to generate the "massive profits" you apparently don't understand.

Apparently I don't, thanks for the lesson

 

[Slade3200]

You think prices skyrocketed because of government regulations?! While they do play a factor, you are forgetting about the main culprits which are the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

 

[P@triot]

You think prices skyrocketed because of government regulations?! While they do play a factor, you are forgetting about the main culprits which are the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

 

[Spare_change]

The guns in your house are there because you have permission to have them from the government.

​

Somewhere along the line, you failed to grasp the very essence of our democracy.

The government does not control the people - the people control the government. With the permission of the people, the government is assigned certain activities that we, in turn, agree to follow. The 'common defense' is obviously the easiest example.

However, for the past 60 years, the government has been usurping, and assigning to itself, the responsibilities of the people. By our inaction, we have allowed the government to amass significant power and control over the people.

This illegal activity is the very essence of the upcoming election. Progressives believe that a strong government is needed to control the people. Conservatives believe that a weak government is needed so it can be controlled BY the people. Both views are Utopian. The answer, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

The last 8 years have seen a massive push to government control. Four more years, particularly with the SCOTUS hanging in the balance, would be catastrophic to the concept of self-government. In fact, it is fair to say that if the Progressives are successful, the American democracy, as our forefathers intended and our fathers gave their lives for, will morph into a socialist democracy, and fade into the background of history.

When you say "the people" who do you mean? How is that voice heard?

That was exactly the point ... the "people" - you and me - sat on our fat asses and ignored what they were doing. As long as it didn't directly affect us, we ignored it. Instead, we should have made ourselves informed, elected officials who supported our point of view, and directly made our voices heard.

Once, we controlled the government ... WE decided what the policies were going to be. Then, we got fat and lazy ... ignoring our responsibility as citizens, and allowed the government to take over.

Now, it is time to take control back ... by whatever means necessary.

I still don't know what you mean. The people's voice is heard through their vote and the representatives that we elect. Is this process the thing that you are objecting to or are you objecting to the job that our elected officials are doing?

Neither ---- I am objecting to the job YOU did. You allowed our representatives to create fiefdoms and empires, allowed them to usurp our rights and our responsibilities. It was thru the inaction of you and other citizens that has allowed the power paradigm to be turned upside down. And, now, our illustrious progressives have fallen smartly in line and are marching off the cliff of total government control.

 

[Slade3200]

The guns in your house are there because you have permission to have them from the government.

​

Somewhere along the line, you failed to grasp the very essence of our democracy.

The government does not control the people - the people control the government. With the permission of the people, the government is assigned certain activities that we, in turn, agree to follow. The 'common defense' is obviously the easiest example.

However, for the past 60 years, the government has been usurping, and assigning to itself, the responsibilities of the people. By our inaction, we have allowed the government to amass significant power and control over the people.

This illegal activity is the very essence of the upcoming election. Progressives believe that a strong government is needed to control the people. Conservatives believe that a weak government is needed so it can be controlled BY the people. Both views are Utopian. The answer, as always, lies somewhere in the middle.

The last 8 years have seen a massive push to government control. Four more years, particularly with the SCOTUS hanging in the balance, would be catastrophic to the concept of self-government. In fact, it is fair to say that if the Progressives are successful, the American democracy, as our forefathers intended and our fathers gave their lives for, will morph into a socialist democracy, and fade into the background of history.

When you say "the people" who do you mean? How is that voice heard?

That was exactly the point ... the "people" - you and me - sat on our fat asses and ignored what they were doing. As long as it didn't directly affect us, we ignored it. Instead, we should have made ourselves informed, elected officials who supported our point of view, and directly made our voices heard.

Once, we controlled the government ... WE decided what the policies were going to be. Then, we got fat and lazy ... ignoring our responsibility as citizens, and allowed the government to take over.

Now, it is time to take control back ... by whatever means necessary.

I still don't know what you mean. The people's voice is heard through their vote and the representatives that we elect. Is this process the thing that you are objecting to or are you objecting to the job that our elected officials are doing?

Neither ---- I am objecting to the job YOU did. You allowed our representatives to create fiefdoms and empires, allowed them to usurp our rights and our responsibilities. It was thru the inaction of you and other citizens that has allowed the power paradigm to be turned upside down. And, now, our illustrious progressives have fallen smartly in line and are marching off the cliff of total government control.

Perhaps the voice of the people is different than your voice. Can you accept that?

 

[Slade3200]

You think prices skyrocketed because of government regulations?! While they do play a factor, you are forgetting about the main culprits which are the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

 

[P@triot]

You think prices skyrocketed because of government regulations?! While they do play a factor, you are forgetting about the main culprits which are the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Your contradicting yourself. On one hand you claim that it is the insurance companies which drive up prices. In the next sentence you claim that insurance companies dictate which physicians and facilities a covered individual can use. Do you know why? Because they've made agreements with those physicians and facilities which keep prices down. You're contradicting yourself.

 

[dblack]

You think prices skyrocketed because of government regulations?! While they do play a factor, you are forgetting about the main culprits which are the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

 

[Slade3200]

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Your contradicting yourself. On one hand you claim that it is the insurance companies which drive up prices. In the next sentence you claim that insurance companies dictate which physicians and facilities a covered individual can use. Do you know why? Because they've made agreements with those physicians and facilities which keep prices down. You're contradicting yourself.

Have you seen the prices go down? Deductibles go down? These arrangements are made because the insurance companies want discounts, the healthcare providers make less profit with these discounts so they jack their prices up. It's just a game
The Great American Hospital Pricing Scam Exposed-We Now Know Why Healthcare Costs Are So Artificially High

 

[P@triot]

Have you seen the prices go down? Deductibles go down? These arrangements are made because the insurance companies want discounts, the healthcare providers make less profit with these discounts so they jack their prices up. It's just a game
The Great American Hospital Pricing Scam Exposed-We Now Know Why Healthcare Costs Are So Artificially High

Dude....you just admitted it. What is a discount? A change in direction on prices.

 

[Slade3200]

Sorry, your ignorance is showing ... you lack even a basic understanding of the insurance company business model.

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

 

[Slade3200]

Have you seen the prices go down? Deductibles go down? These arrangements are made because the insurance companies want discounts, the healthcare providers make less profit with these discounts so they jack their prices up. It's just a game
The Great American Hospital Pricing Scam Exposed-We Now Know Why Healthcare Costs Are So Artificially High

Dude....you just admitted it. What is a discount? A change in direction on prices.

I'm not just making this stuff up... From the Forbes article that you didn't read... or do your own search for reasons our healthcare costs are high and you will get very similar sentiments....

"...hospitals now artificially raise their rate card charges as a part of the negotiation process they enter into with private, for-profit health insurers.

When the dance between hospitals and health insurers began, if a hospital’s actual cost plus reasonable profit totaled $1,000 for a given procedure and the insurer demanded a 50 percent discount, the hospitals simply negotiated towards doubling the price from $1,000 to $2,000 in order to make it all work out. But over time, hospitals began to include other charges into the cost of a procedure, including their unpaid collectibles from patients who were uninsured and could not pay, losses in unrelated hospital divisions, inefficiency in how the hospital was being operated, etc. As time has progressed, this approach has grown so out of hand that any rational explanation for pricing no longer appears to exist...."

 

[dblack]

You'll have to excuse him - he's a liberal so all he knows is the propaganda that his masters in Washington have spoon fed to him...

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

Resolve the 'givens'.

 

[Slade3200]

You still haven't explained how the debt crushes us...Detroit and USSR are not answers

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

Resolve the 'givens'.

Please explain...

 

[dblack]

Sure they are. You just have no answer for them so you want to reject them. But here's the thing sparky - you don't control the narrative. You don't get to decide for all of society what constitutes an answer and what doesn't (even though all liberals desperately desire that kind of oppressive control).

By the way - I noticed you're trying to skip back 10 pages after all of your idiotic comments about insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. Still waiting for you to explain how what I pay my insurance company affects what a hospital charges

Like I said - it's like trying to blame your auto insurance for the price of gas.

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

Resolve the 'givens'.

Please explain...

You stipulated - "given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer ....". THAT's the problem. Patching it with corporatist mandates only kicks the can.

 

[Slade3200]

You're really staying with the insurance/gas analogy? Ok... First off, your auto insurance does not pay for your gas. Your health insurance pays your medical bills... your comparison is apples and oranges... Do you really not understand how a system where the consumer does not pay directly for the service causes inflated prices? The insurance companies dictate which doctors people can go to and the services that people are covered for, and are the ones paying the bills, this undermines a true competitive marketplace. Doctors and hospitals are not pricing their services for poor and middle class people they are pricing them for insurance companies. Pricing is inflated because the hospitals are billing insurance companies, accounting for extra overhead in the billing process, accounting for discounts that insurance companies demand... Health care providers jack up their prices and insurers jack up their premiums. When discounts are giving from the health care providers the insurance companies keep the profits, they rarely trickle down to the end consumer.

This is all pretty common sense stuff. Are you sticking up for the insurance companies and denying that they play a significant part in the inflated pricing and corruption in our healthcare system?

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

Resolve the 'givens'.

Please explain...

You stipulated - "given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer ....". THAT's the problem. Patching it with corporatist mandates only kicks the can.

How do you propose we fix it?

 

[dblack]

Yep. And our government's idea of 'solving' the problem was to force us to buy their product. It's like the plot of some absurdist farce.

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

Resolve the 'givens'.

Please explain...

You stipulated - "given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer ....". THAT's the problem. Patching it with corporatist mandates only kicks the can.

How do you propose we fix it?

Well, if you think EMTALA is the problem, repeal it. If you think the safety nets we have in place are the problem, repeal those. Personally, I don't think either of those is a significant factor. I think the fact that most people who have insurance are over-insured is the bugbear. If we remove the tax and regulatory policies that promote employer provided group insurance, the problem will take care of itself.

 

[Slade3200]

It does seem absurd that the government is forcing people to buy products from private insurance companies... But given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer to treat the uninsured, what alternatives do we have besides the current ACA or a socialized healthcare system?

Resolve the 'givens'.

Please explain...

You stipulated - "given the mess of the situation and costs that get passed down to the tax payer ....". THAT's the problem. Patching it with corporatist mandates only kicks the can.

How do you propose we fix it?

Well, if you think EMTALA is the problem, repeal it. If you think the safety nets we have in place are the problem, repeal those. Personally, I don't think either of those is a significant factor. I think the fact that most people who have insurance are over-insured is the bugbear. If we remove the tax and regulatory policies that promote employer provided group insurance, the problem will take care of itself.

How? I'm not seeing the path... close to 20 million have been insured because of the ACA. How does taking away all regulatory and tax policies provide a better solution for our general public?